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General Cricket => Latest Matches => Topic started by: Sivlar13 on August 27, 2017, 07:48:18 PM

Title: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Sivlar13 on August 27, 2017, 07:48:18 PM
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/cricket/little-welsh-team-caused-absolute-13536134 (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/cricket/little-welsh-team-caused-absolute-13536134)

I thought this was worth posting. I absolutely love this. Against the spirit of the game? Most definitely. But they got the job done.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Jaffa on August 27, 2017, 07:56:07 PM
[url]http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/cricket/little-welsh-team-caused-absolute-13536134[/url] ([url]http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/cricket/little-welsh-team-caused-absolute-13536134[/url])

I thought this was worth posting. I absolutely love this. Against the spirit of the game? Most definitely. But they got the job done.


Mate, you'll go far. Most people will probably hate you, but you'll go far.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: FattusCattus on August 27, 2017, 08:01:53 PM
Not how I would want to win a league.

Just my personal opinion, but that's shitcakes really - win with your head held high, not at all costs!
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: golders on August 27, 2017, 08:03:44 PM
Surely the celebrations would feel a little hollow?
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Northern monkey on August 27, 2017, 08:15:52 PM
Gutless totally gutless
Either back yourselves or go home
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: roco on August 27, 2017, 08:17:06 PM
Saw this in news

Hollow victory but says a lot about club and win at all costs fair play as tactically brilliant but morally repugnant
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: petehosk on August 27, 2017, 08:25:33 PM
Whoever made that one is a gutless moron!
To me that is not what cricket is about.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Seniorplayer on August 27, 2017, 08:31:29 PM
This sort of thing drags cricket down.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: langer17 on August 27, 2017, 08:40:03 PM
That's the advantage of being in top spot.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Mortimer on August 27, 2017, 09:23:20 PM
It has echoes of Somerset in the Benson & Hedges Cup in 1979, and they were thrown out the competititon that year for what they did
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: InternalTraining on August 27, 2017, 10:04:17 PM
[url]http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/cricket/little-welsh-team-caused-absolute-13536134[/url] ([url]http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/cricket/little-welsh-team-caused-absolute-13536134[/url])

I thought this was worth posting. I absolutely love this. Against the spirit of the game? Most definitely. But they got the job done.


Time to renew their point system -- what a silly way to "game" the system.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: mdg20 on August 27, 2017, 11:10:05 PM
when i saw this i thought it was a terrible way to win the league however having seen what one of their players/members/supporters put it appears that you get batting and bowling points on top of win points therefore they have spent all season bowling teams out cheaply in first innings which then seriously disadvantages them in getting more batting points. Seems a really stupid points scoring system  and one by which I can see why they would for once make it work in their favour. Id like to think my club would just go out and win the game but doing that is understandable.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: play-yourself-in on August 28, 2017, 02:01:09 AM
Some of the teams I've played in would find it hard to chase down 18!
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Big Mac on August 28, 2017, 03:26:01 AM
Normally when I see an outrage like this I side with the supposed villain because the general rule of thumb is that people who invoke "The Spirit of Cricket" are either dumb, boring and more often than not they are both.

However, in this case if I was part of the team that won the league I'd have been annoyed and would have preferred to play the full game. Partly because it's the sporting thing to do but mostly because I'm paying subs, match fees and taking time out of my weekend to drive to a game and you better believe I want my money's worth.

It's one thing to do it if you're a professional, it's another to do it to win a diddy club league that not even your own family give a toss about. People who take amateur sports that seriously are the worst.

when i saw this i thought it was a terrible way to win the league however having seen what one of their players/members/supporters put it appears that you get batting and bowling points on top of win points therefore they have spent all season bowling teams out cheaply in first innings which then seriously disadvantages them in getting more batting points. Seems a really stupid points scoring system  and one by which I can see why they would for once make it work in their favour. Id like to think my club would just go out and win the game but doing that is understandable.

So bat first, score a billion runs and bowl the opposition out for 50.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Biggie Smalls on August 28, 2017, 05:21:59 AM
brilliant !
the only thing against 'the spirit of cricket' here is the points system and the lack of a final.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Seniorplayer on August 28, 2017, 08:38:37 AM
 our league has the same system for half the season if you  win batting first  you get the  maximum  24 points batting and bowling points then do not come into it for the winning team.
The club that declared would be aware if they won they the opposition batting and bowling points wouldn't have mattered.
On that basis what happened is within the rules but against the spirit of the game.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: mdg20 on August 28, 2017, 09:25:27 AM
So bat first, score a billion runs and bowl the opposition out for 50.

What if you loose the toss, what if the oppo bat first just to stop you getting loads of batting points.
I really hope this makes the league review their points system
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: mdg20 on August 28, 2017, 09:30:10 AM
our league has the same system for half the season if you  win batting first  you get the  maximum  24 points batting and bowling points then do not come into it for the winning team.
The club that declared would be aware if they won they the opposition batting and bowling points wouldn't have mattered.
On that basis what happened is within the rules but against the spirit of the game.

We have straight 25 points batting first in timed game or 20 if you chase. Only if you loose or draw do you get bonus points. Same in overs cricket, straight 20 for winner only bonus points if you loose.
Win points + bonus only works in CC where you bat twice so your first innings isn't affected by the result of the game. Unless you have bonuses based on margin of victory it's a completely flawed system.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Boondougal on August 28, 2017, 10:03:31 AM
I'm really sat on the fence when it comes to this... at the end of the day we all "use" the rules during a game to win / get an advantage etc etc... I guess they just did it on a whole new level but it still amounts tot he same as not walking when you may have nicked one and the thread the other day had plenty of people stating how they just leave it up to the umpires either way.

Fundamentally depends on the ethos / objectives of the team... if they play to win and winning means promotion then why is what they did wrong? They Won and achieved their aims all within the rules.

Have to say though... I play to play (and hopefully win) so if I was captain I would struggle to do something such as this, I would also struggle to be in a side that agreed this was the right thing to do....
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: brokenbat on August 28, 2017, 11:58:18 AM
I'd be more annoyed that I didn't get to play!
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Vitas Cricket on August 28, 2017, 12:03:37 PM
The dinosaurs i've seen on social media moaning about the lack of respect to the spirit of cricket will often be the same dinosaurs who will vote against a change to the rules that have caused this whole debacle. Reasons given will be 'oh our rules have always been like this, we must keep the game traditional' etc

I'm not condoning Their decision to declare like that, I'd prefer to go out and win the game and lift the trophy heads held high, but I completely get why they did what they did.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: richthekeeper on August 28, 2017, 12:07:57 PM
our league has the same system for half the season if you  win batting first  you get the  maximum  24 points batting and bowling points then do not come into it for the winning team.
The club that declared would be aware if they won they the opposition batting and bowling points wouldn't have mattered.
On that basis what happened is within the rules but against the spirit of the game.

Not quite - the points system in that league allows the winning team to score up to 10 bonus points in addition to the 20 points for winning. So the maximum would be 30. Knowing they were 21 ahead in the league the team in question chose not to risk getting bowled out while racking up a big score as there was potential for the opposition to score more than the 22 points needed to win the league.

The only problem with the league rules here is that there is no penalty for a declaration. Usually you'd see a declaration being regarded as the team having been bowled out and therefore the bowling team receive full bowling points. This wouldn't have prevented the farcical circumstances in question.

That said, it's an absolutely disgraceful thing to do and shame on Carew CC for doing it.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Big Mac on August 28, 2017, 01:20:46 PM
What if you loose the toss, what if the oppo bat first just to stop you getting loads of batting points.
I really hope this makes the league review their points system

They can't have lost the toss and bowled first every week.

If they're so dominant that teams always bat first against them and get bowled out for double digits then Carew should have been more than 21 pts clear at the top in the last week of the season.

I'd be more annoyed that I didn't get to play!

This guy knows the score!
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: LBWCandidate on August 28, 2017, 02:37:14 PM
The whole point of amateur leagues is to go out, play and have fun. Winning feels good but playing a game and winning is the best.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Lumsden on August 28, 2017, 10:40:20 PM
Must be a very weird club because if I was the skipper and tried that stunt, I am sure all the guys who I play cricket with would simply continue the match regardless. Pethaps there is something extra which has not been disclosed?
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: enlightened on August 29, 2017, 05:59:21 AM
Not how I would want to win a league.

Just my personal opinion, but that's shitcakes really - win with your head held high, not at all costs!

This.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: smilley792 on August 29, 2017, 07:02:33 AM
Happened in a league I played in about ten years ago(know defunct league)

Top declared after 2balls on 1 for non. And celebrated all night long.

2 weeks later the league through them out for going against the spirit of cricket and the oppo got awarded the title.

They then changed the rules that if a team declared the oppo got full bonus points for that innings regardless
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Neon Cricket on August 29, 2017, 07:24:00 AM
They then changed the rules that if a team declared the oppo got full bonus points for that innings regardless

That's how the Wilts league works - we declared Saturday (bearing in mind we'd put up 310 within 39 overs) so the oppo ended up with full bowling points. We declared for their sake more than anything, no point putting up 400 against anyone! Bowled them out for 80 odd so clearly the right decision in that respect.

With regards to the Wales incident I wouldn't have done that personally, however I do understand the reasoning - they've still had to play well all season to get 1st place at the end of the day to be fair to them.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: tom line on August 29, 2017, 08:44:41 AM
I don't mind it so much to be honest, not within the spirit no,  but within the rules and quite clever really. Plus I'd imagine if that's the way they want to play cricket and substitute the spirit of the game for promotion, I'd imagine the other teams in that league were probably fairly happy to see the back of them
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: northernboy1987 on August 29, 2017, 09:22:17 AM
I'm with @FattusCattus I think it's a shithouse tactic and if others think it makes me soft I couldn't care less, I'd rather finish second than win like that.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: brokenbat on August 29, 2017, 11:42:30 AM
they must not be splurging on bats like us... otherwise why throw away opportunity to get some willow on leather?
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: edge on August 29, 2017, 12:12:11 PM
What a bunch of bottlers, would have been that difficult just to make sure you didn't get bowled out? I'm not gonna muck around here, anyone doing that needs to have a good hard look at themselves.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: HallamKeeper on August 29, 2017, 12:56:13 PM
I'm sure someone can tell me, why do we have bonus points? I can understand 4 day games having them as there are quite a few draws but in a one day game you are just playing to win. If it is rained off it is just a case of sharing the points.

I don't really understand how bonus points promote good cricket. I have played in a number of games where the oppo know they aren't going to get the runs so they just block for an hour or so to deny us points and scrape a few for themselves.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Vitas Cricket on August 29, 2017, 01:12:14 PM
I'm sure someone can tell me, why do we have bonus points? I can understand 4 day games having them as there are quite a few draws but in a one day game you are just playing to win. If it is rained off it is just a case of sharing the points.

I don't really understand how bonus points promote good cricket. I have played in a number of games where the oppo know they aren't going to get the runs so they just block for an hour or so to deny us points and scrape a few for themselves.

In draw cricket they are important I feel, if the match is a lost cause why should you just roll over and let the oppo run through you? Scrapping away to try and get as many bonus points as possible is of course not as enjoyable as winning, but it helps to promote discipline and patience from both sides.

The league I play in moved to win/loss 50 overs a side a couple of years ago. It is 25 points for a win, with a maximum of 15 bonus points if you lose the game. If you win and bowl the opposition out (regardless of whether you field first or second) you get an additional 5 points.

I do not understand the award of bonus points to the winners of a game, aside from our leagues little nod towards our previous rules where when bowling second you had to bowl the team out or it would be a draw.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: InternalTraining on August 29, 2017, 01:14:58 PM
This point system seems like an attempt to make everyone happy despite the losses. That is not reality, really. You win, you win. You lose, no points for you!
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Vitas Cricket on August 29, 2017, 02:21:26 PM
This point system seems like an attempt to make everyone happy despite the losses. That is not reality, really. You win, you win. You lose, no points for you!

In T20 maybe, i for one will no longer be playing the game if the only format on offer is T20.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: InternalTraining on August 29, 2017, 02:27:16 PM
In T20 maybe, i for one will no longer be playing the game if the only format on offer is T20.

By "point system", I mean this bonus point system in 40/50 over draw-cricket when one side loses and gets points. 50 or 40 overs win/lose cricket with no bonus point system is simple and eliminate all ambiguity.

I don't even care about T-20 cricket but replicating Test cricket in a day game seems like a lot of unnecessary work.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: HallamKeeper on August 29, 2017, 02:29:26 PM
Surely it is more enjoyable when the game is lost for the batsmen to play however they choose. If they want to have a slog, why not? It is a bit of fun to take the edge off the loss. They can also just play normally if they want.

I don't really understand why in one match someone loses by 50 runs and gets 6 points and another match someones loses by 55 runs and gets 4 points. They both lost comfortably.

In our league you get 1 point for scoring 50% of the oppos target, 3 for 60% etc. You see teams realise a win isn't likely and then revise their target to 70% of the original just to get a few points. I think bonus points reward mediocrity and punish teams who have a go right until the end. You also only get 20 points if you don't bowl the opposition out, 25 for bowling them out. You could score 500 and get a team 100/9 and lose 5 points.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: InternalTraining on August 29, 2017, 02:32:50 PM
No points for the runner-up, that's what I say. :)
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Vitas Cricket on August 29, 2017, 02:37:30 PM
By "point system", I mean this bonus point system in 40/50 over draw-cricket when one side loses and gets points. 50 or 40 overs win/lose cricket with no bonus point system is simple and eliminate all ambiguity.

I don't even care about T-20 cricket but replicating Test cricket in a day game seems like a lot of unnecessary work.

I think you'll be hard pressed to find a lot of support in English league cricket if you propose turning up, playing for 6 or 7 hours, taking potentially 9 wickets (10 if you bowl first) and scoring lets say 200 runs and getting ZERO points.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Vitas Cricket on August 29, 2017, 02:39:07 PM
You also only get 20 points if you don't bowl the opposition out, 25 for bowling them out. You could score 500 and get a team 100/9 and lose 5 points.

That to me is where the heart of cricket lies. I'm not a huge fan of many of the ancient dinosaurs who run the amateur game and some of the antiquated rules in place, but i am very much a believer in taking 10 wickets to win a game of cricket.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: InternalTraining on August 29, 2017, 02:48:10 PM
I think you'll be hard pressed to find a lot of support in English league cricket if you propose turning up, playing for 6 or 7 hours, taking potentially 9 wickets (10 if you bowl first) and scoring lets say 200 runs and getting ZERO points.

40 or 50 over win-lose cricket eliminates all those problems. Each side bats the 40/50 overs unless bowled out.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: roco on August 29, 2017, 02:51:47 PM
That to me is where the heart of cricket lies. I'm not a huge fan of many of the ancient dinosaurs who run the amateur game and some of the antiquated rules in place, but i am very much a believer in taking 10 wickets to win a game of cricket.

Agree with this and its something our league is tinkering with

I'm ok with bonus points but get rid of draw points

make it win loose winning team get max points and no bonus points but loosing side can gain points for wickets and runs say every 2 wickets and at 100 125 upto 200 so they could potentially get 10 bonus points so something to play for

got to have something to play for otherwise I think certain players will give up playing
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Vitas Cricket on August 29, 2017, 03:57:51 PM
40 or 50 over win-lose cricket eliminates all those problems. Each side bats the 40/50 overs unless bowled out.

I play 50 over win lose cricket. We lost at the weekend and our opponents got 30 points, we got 13 points as we took 10 wickets and got to 192 chasing 223.

Unless i've read it wrong you are saying we should get zero points?
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: InternalTraining on August 29, 2017, 04:10:58 PM
I play 50 over win lose cricket. We lost at the weekend and our opponents got 30 points, we got 13 points as we took 10 wickets and got to 192 chasing 223.

Unless i've read it wrong you are saying we should get zero points?

Yes, zero points.

We lost this weekend; we got zero (0) points. Our opponent won, they got 6 points. Nobody complains. All that matters is winning and everything else is ignored. You score a 50, you get a small trophy regardless of win/loss. You take 5 wickets, you get a small trophy regardless of win/loss. Individual players' contributions show up in the stats charts. No fuss, no muss.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Vitas Cricket on August 29, 2017, 04:25:50 PM
Yes, zero points.

We lost this weekend; we got zero (0) points. Our opponent won, they got 6 points. Nobody complains. All that matters is winning and everything else is ignored. You score a 50, you get a small trophy regardless of win/loss. You take 5 wickets, you get a small trophy regardless of win/loss. Individual players' contributions show up in the stats charts. No fuss, no muss.

How do you separate teams who finish the season on the same number of points? I imagine this happens a lot when multiples of 6 are the only numbers teams can end up with.

To be honest i cannot see it catching on, I for one would want nothing to do with the game if once its clear you cannot win the only incentive is to throw the bat and be out as quickly as possible (maybe once in a career it comes off and you win miraculously)
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: InternalTraining on August 29, 2017, 04:36:38 PM
How do you separate teams who finish the season on the same number of points? I imagine this happens a lot when multiples of 6 are the only numbers teams can end up with.

To be honest i cannot see it catching on, I for one would want nothing to do with the game if once its clear you cannot win the only incentive is to throw the bat and be out as quickly as possible (maybe once in a career it comes off and you win miraculously)

Point system is used to determine "play-off" teams and Championship is decided in the "play-offs". Top two team automatically qualify for the play-offs or semi-finals. The next 4 teams play the quarter-finals to qualify for the semis. Quarter-final and semi-final matches are knock-out or elimination rounds.

I have been playing for 6/7 years and that is the system I know and accept. There is hardly ever an issue with sportsmanship. I, for one, have never witnessed anyone deliberately throwing the game. We won the last match by the skin of our teeth - we posted a 250+ in 40 over; the other side was losing wickets fast but their captain scored a huge 144 and got caught out in the last over. He literally climbed a mountain to get his (faltering) team where he did. They lost by 4 runs but won our respect.

Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on August 29, 2017, 04:54:49 PM
We won the last match by the skin of our teeth - we posted a 250+ in 40 over; the other side was losing wickets fast but their captain scored a huge 144 and got caught out in the last over. He literally climbed a mountain to get his (faltering) team where he did. They lost by 4 runs but won our respect.

He should have won a few bonus points too, really...  ;) :D
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: InternalTraining on August 29, 2017, 04:56:42 PM
Hahahahahahhaha
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: InternalTraining on August 29, 2017, 04:59:17 PM
Motivation (for us) is just the game itself and not the accolades. We accept there is no "organizational" cricket infrastructure here. No grounds are funded by the state or ICC. The grounds are built and maintained by volunteers...teams are funded privately by cricket fans and cricketers. We are just glad that we get the opportunity to play in warm weather, that is a reward in itself. :)
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: smilley792 on August 29, 2017, 05:03:17 PM
I think we should agree to disagree. Many people want different things from the game, and because there are so many variables. Everybody won't be happy with what's given.
(and it's ultimately why it's a dying game).


Me personally, I'll end up retiring if I have to sit through another 50 overs where the oppo refuse to chase 200 and just waste my Saturday afternoon being boring.

I'll also retire if they stop teas!
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on August 29, 2017, 05:06:18 PM
I think we should agree to disagree. Many people want different things from the game, and because there are so many variables. Everybody won't be happy with what's given.
(and it's ultimately why it's a dying game).


Me personally, I'll end up retiring if I have to sit through another 50 overs where the oppo refuse to chase 200 and just waste my Saturday afternoon being boring.

I'll also retire if they stop teas!

I agree with this 100%

Teas are the highlight of some games (closely followed by a decent shower some weeks).
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Vitas Cricket on August 29, 2017, 05:50:35 PM
Point system is used to determine "play-off" teams and Championship is decided in the "play-offs". Top two team automatically qualify for the play-offs or semi-finals. The next 4 teams play the quarter-finals to qualify for the semis. Quarter-final and semi-final matches are knock-out or elimination rounds.

I have been playing for 6/7 years and that is the system I know and accept. There is hardly ever an issue with sportsmanship. I, for one, have never witnessed anyone deliberately throwing the game. We won the last match by the skin of our teeth - we posted a 250+ in 40 over; the other side was losing wickets fast but their captain scored a huge 144 and got caught out in the last over. He literally climbed a mountain to get his (faltering) team where he did. They lost by 4 runs but won our respect.

What happens with relegation? Let's say there are 2 relegation sports and 3 clubs don't win a game all season and all have 0 points?
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: InternalTraining on August 29, 2017, 05:53:37 PM
What happens with relegation? Let's say there are 2 relegation sports and 3 clubs don't win a game all season and all have 0 points?

Every year, two teams go up a division and two teams comes down a division - the top two move up and bottom two (based on points) go down a division. Our league has 4 divisions. Each club that plays in the league has 2 or more teams playing in different divisions. Teams are allowed to move players in and out of teams for the first game of the league; after that, teams are fixed and people play in their team and division for rest of the season.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on August 29, 2017, 06:11:04 PM
Every year, two teams go up a division and two teams comes down a division - the top two move up and bottom two (based on points) go down a division. Our league has 4 divisions. Each club that plays in the league has 2 or more teams playing in different divisions. Teams are allowed to move players in and out of teams for the first game of the league; after that, teams are fixed and people play in their team and division for rest of the season.

What happens if 3 teams are on 0 points?
Alphabetical order?
Flip a coin?
Rock, Paper, Scissors?
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: InternalTraining on August 29, 2017, 06:13:46 PM
What happens if 3 teams are on 0 points?
Alphabetical order?
Flip a coin?
Rock, Paper, Scissors?

Run rate is the determinant when points are tied.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Mortimer on August 29, 2017, 07:50:31 PM
brilliant !
the only thing against 'the spirit of cricket' here is the points system and the lack of a final.

There should not be a final to determine who are league champions. Results over the whole season determine that.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: LBWCandidate on August 29, 2017, 08:38:29 PM
Yes, zero points.

We lost this weekend; we got zero (0) points. Our opponent won, they got 6 points. Nobody complains. All that matters is winning and everything else is ignored. You score a 50, you get a small trophy regardless of win/loss. You take 5 wickets, you get a small trophy regardless of win/loss. Individual players' contributions show up in the stats charts. No fuss, no muss.

We play in a similar league. Winning team gets 4 points, losing team nothing. Washed out games, points are shared. If there is tie based on points, NRR is looked at.
5 wicket hauls and 100's get trophies at end of the season as well.
No bonus points. 
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Biggie Smalls on August 29, 2017, 10:36:56 PM
Every year, two teams go up a division and two teams comes down a division - the top two move up and bottom two (based on points) go down a division. Our league has 4 divisions. Each club that plays in the league has 2 or more teams playing in different divisions. Teams are allowed to move players in and out of teams for the first game of the league; after that, teams are fixed and people play in their team and division for rest of the season.


Now i understand the problem , and the reason your comps need such convoluted bonus points systems.  Aussie grade structure seems waaaaay better to me . There are multiple grades . No promotion and relegation of teams . 3rd grade in 2016 still plays 3rd grade in 2017.... because it's 3rd grade ! Each player is chosen in a grade , their performance dictactes if they , as individuals,  are 'promoted' or 'relegated' into a higher or lower grade . Sure , team composition may change often (even on a fortnightly basis) , and if you , or others around you , have an inconsistent season you may play in a few grades . But so what ? It makes it challenging , you are playing for your spot aswell as playing for your team and club . You also get to potentially play with more people at your club too . I think its infinitely better , and the fact you only need to find the semifinalists via the comp points means you can avoid all these unnecessary shenanigans.   
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: edge on August 29, 2017, 11:36:37 PM

Now i understand the problem , and the reason your comps need such convoluted bonus points systems.  Aussie grade structure seems waaaaay better to me . There are multiple grades . No promotion and relegation of teams . 3rd grade in 2016 still plays 3rd grade in 2017.... because it's 3rd grade ! Each player is chosen in a grade , their performance dictactes if they , as individuals,  are 'promoted' or 'relegated' into a higher or lower grade . Sure , team composition may change often (even on a fortnightly basis) , and if you , or others around you , have an inconsistent season you may play in a few grades . But so what ? It makes it challenging , you are playing for your spot aswell as playing for your team and club . You also get to potentially play with more people at your club too . I think its infinitely better , and the fact you only need to find the semifinalists via the comp points means you can avoid all these unnecessary shenanigans.
So what happens if you're consistently the best or worst team in a grade? You just keep getting easy wins/getting stuffed year after year? Or even if you're mid-table, what are your ambitions for each season. No promotion/relegation surely makes it very reliant on the majority of teams being closely matched for there to be much point in it all.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: InternalTraining on August 30, 2017, 12:49:48 AM

Now i understand the problem , and the reason your comps need such convoluted bonus points systems.  Aussie grade structure seems waaaaay better to me . There are multiple grades . No promotion and relegation of teams . 3rd grade in 2016 still plays 3rd grade in 2017.... because it's 3rd grade ! Each player is chosen in a grade , their performance dictactes if they , as individuals,  are 'promoted' or 'relegated' into a higher or lower grade . Sure , team composition may change often (even on a fortnightly basis) , and if you , or others around you , have an inconsistent season you may play in a few grades . But so what ? It makes it challenging , you are playing for your spot aswell as playing for your team and club . You also get to potentially play with more people at your club too . I think its infinitely better , and the fact you only need to find the semifinalists via the comp points means you can avoid all these unnecessary shenanigans.

I think you quoted the wrong post, our system has no "bonus" point system. Infact, it is very straight forward and also very competitive. At the end of the day, every one has a lot of fun. Cricket in states is the labo(u)r of love. :)
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: northernboy1987 on August 30, 2017, 07:52:33 AM
I don't think we have the number of participants needed for a grade system over here in the UK, would mean every club having to have 3-5 teams (presuming you had 3-5 grades) whereas a lot of clubs in our area struggle to put out two teams every week, would lead to a lot of clubs closing their doors unfortunately.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Biggie Smalls on August 30, 2017, 08:41:45 AM
I think you quoted the wrong post, our system has no "bonus" point system. Infact, it is very straight forward and also very competitive. At the end of the day, every one has a lot of fun. Cricket in states is the labo(u)r of love. :)


I used your post as an example of promotion/relegation . Other previous posts noted promotion and relegation necesstating a varied point structure (often including bonus points).
I wasn't actually trying to compare the oz system to the u.s one .... i simply used reference to promotion/relegation to start a point . :)
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Boondougal on August 30, 2017, 08:44:41 AM
I like the principle of a grade system.. I guess that way you are always playing against others who are theoretically the same "grade" and such the games should always be competitive... too many times I have played against players who simply are too good for the league they are in but money / ego etc is playing a large part.

I assume you can only get picked for the grade you are performing at so I can see lots of issues associated with having to drop people etc etc when yo have too many at one grade and not able to get a team if you don't have enough at another grade but I'm sure there are rules /  approaches to iron all that out.

I can see how it could be set up to produce / identify the better cricketers though... which I guess helps the professional game.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Biggie Smalls on August 30, 2017, 08:57:36 AM
So what happens if you're consistently the best or worst team in a grade? You just keep getting easy wins/getting stuffed year after year? Or even if you're mid-table, what are your ambitions for each season. No promotion/relegation surely makes it very reliant on the majority of teams being closely matched for there to be much point in it all.


Your club would either need great depth ( or a severe lack thereof ) to continually win easily , or get stuffed , year after year . Besides , if , say , 3rd grade at your club, won the comp , some of those players would likely end up playing in a higher grade the next year . If you came last in a grade it would mean those guys should get picked in a lower grade and depth/recruitment needs to be worked on .
Any team that finishes in a similar position , year after year , would still have the player roster of that team change regularly  (whether fortnightly,  yearly etc ), and it would be due to the strength or weakness of club depth .
In reality,  some clubs consistently do well in the club championship  (points across all grades) , but winners of each grade changes regularly. ... so the system doesnt tend to have perpetual super clubs and cellar dwellers .
In terms of no promotion /relegation equating to teams needing to be closely matched .... this could be true if teams were fixed for the season , but you can change the side for each grade each game.... the goal of selectors is to make each side strong enough to compete  without penalizing the strength of any other grade ( player movement restrictions are only as follows - to be eligible for semis a player must play 3 of the last 4 games in that grade or lower . This stops you sending all the 1s players down to 2s in the last couple rounds once you realise that 1s cant make the finals , for example).
At the beginning of the next season all players are regraded from scratch .
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Seniorplayer on August 30, 2017, 09:02:51 AM

Your club would either need great depth ( or a severe lack thereof ) to continually win easily , or get stuffed , year after year . Besides , if , say , 3rd grade at your club, won the comp , some of those players would likely end up playing in a higher grade the next year . If you came last in a grade it would mean those guys should get picked in a lower grade and depth/recruitment needs to be worked on .
Any team that finishes in a similar position , year after year , would still have the player roster of that team change regularly  (whether fortnightly,  yearly etc ), and it would be due to the strength or weakness of club depth .
In reality,  some clubs consistently do well in the club championship  (points across all grades) , but winners of each grade changes regularly. ... so the system doesnt tend to have perpetual super clubs and cellar dwellers .
In terms of no promotion /relegation equating to teams needing to be closely matched .... this could be true if teams were fixed for the season , but you can change the side for each grade each game.... the goal of selectors is to make each side strong enough to compete  without penalizing the strength of any other grade ( player movement restrictions are only as follows - to be eligible for semis a player must play 3 of the last 4 games in that grade or lower . This stops you sending all the 1s players down to 2s in the last couple rounds once you realise that 1s cant make the finals , for example).
At the beginning of the next season all players are regraded from scratch .

Wouldn't work for us we  only have one team
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Biggie Smalls on August 30, 2017, 09:03:27 AM
I like the principle of a grade system.. I guess that way you are always playing against others who are theoretically the same "grade" and such the games should always be competitive... too many times I have played against players who simply are too good for the league they are in but money / ego etc is playing a large part.

I assume you can only get picked for the grade you are performing at so I can see lots of issues associated with having to drop people etc etc when yo have too many at one grade and not able to get a team if you don't have enough at another grade but I'm sure there are rules /  approaches to iron all that out.

I can see how it could be set up to produce / identify the better cricketers though... which I guess helps the professional game.


A grade system tends to minimise world beaters playing in dud teams/comps, or useless guys being carried by a great team .
Grade system does help identify players and create the pathway and motivation for players to go to higher levels .
Dropping players can be a negative , as it can be (or at least perceived to be ) political,  and players can feel hard done by . If so , go play park cricket and you can avoid it all .
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Biggie Smalls on August 30, 2017, 09:06:08 AM
Wouldn't work for us we  only have one team



From my perspective,  if a club only has 1 team it is a team not a club . One team clubs should play park/village level cricket , and if the players are too good , then they should move to another club .....or go to a grade club .
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: tom line on August 30, 2017, 09:11:09 AM


From my perspective,  if a club only has 1 team it is a team not a club . One team clubs should play park/village level cricket , and if the players are too good , then they should move to another club .....or go to a grade club .

And that would then kill village cricket even more than its current dying rate as the better players from single team clubs leave and they have to fold as they haven't got enough players.

Team I play for on Saturdays have 2 sides,  if one week we lose 3 regulars who normally play most weeks, due to holidays or other commitments we will struggle to fill 2 teams and the 2nd team will have no strength to be competitive, and that's with two team clubs, imagine how much it would damage a one team club to lose 3 regulars
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: roco on August 30, 2017, 09:14:42 AM
I think a lot of this talk is assuming everyone wants to play serious competitive hard cricket year after year

what about the people that don't have the time to put into practice etc with work and family should they just stop playing?

Grade system would only work if you had less clubs so loads of small clubs banding together which wont happen as there is history etc with family having played there and the ground.

Hard sometimes to move clubs if the closest other club is 30 miles away
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Biggie Smalls on August 30, 2017, 09:21:19 AM
And that would then kill village cricket even more than its current dying rate as the better players from single team clubs leave and they have to fold as they haven't got enough players.

Team I play for on Saturdays have 2 sides,  if one week we lose 3 regulars who normally play most weeks, due to holidays or other commitments we will struggle to fill 2 teams and the 2nd team will have no strength to be competitive, and that's with two team clubs, imagine how much it would damage a one team club to lose 3 regulars


Good players still only play park cricket if they don't want the extra time commitment of playing grade. ...so if your two team club has a struggle getting numbers etc , thats a perfect example of a club that should have borh its teams entering in park cricket comps ( one in a grade , one in b grade , for example ) . If you have a park /village structure under the grade system then all your concerns can be alleviated.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Biggie Smalls on August 30, 2017, 09:26:44 AM
I think a lot of this talk is assuming everyone wants to play serious competitive hard cricket year after year

what about the people that don't have the time to put into practice etc with work and family should they just stop playing?

Grade system would only work if you had less clubs so loads of small clubs banding together which wont happen as there is history etc with family having played there and the ground.

Hard sometimes to move clubs if the closest other club is 30 miles away


Players that dont have the time etc dont have to stop playing , they can play park cricket . And you dont even need promotion or relegation vis convoluted points system there either.... here , most of our park comps have teams go up or down a grade at  the start of a new season , but it is left to administraters to organise what grade of park cricket they are placed in (dependent on where they finish previous year , current playing roster etc ).
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: roco on August 30, 2017, 09:31:39 AM
I was only asking as I may have misinterpreted you

you make park cricket sound like a bit of a social game like we would call sunday friendly's when there are people who want a more competitive game and are capable just cannot commit every sat and training every week.

We have a lot of small village clubs here with 1 - 2 teams in who are still very competitive but only have a small playing base which would not survive the system you propose so I doubt it would ever get time of day out here

I agree the points systems used around the uk are ludicrous as so complicated why the ECB just cannot standardise 1 set of rules is beyond me 
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Seniorplayer on August 30, 2017, 09:39:01 AM


From my perspective,  if a club only has 1 team it is a team not a club . One team clubs should play park/village level cricket , and if the players are too good , then they should move to another club .....or go to a grade club .
We are a village club along with the pub tennis club and gardening club we are part of village life and the village takes an interest we won the title   if we are to good  at this level it's  not our fault  we can only field  one team so why  should we move elsewhere lose our identity and the village lose its club
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: InternalTraining on August 30, 2017, 12:40:46 PM
I don't think we have the number of participants needed for a grade system over here in the UK, would mean every club having to have 3-5 teams (presuming you had 3-5 grades) whereas a lot of clubs in our area struggle to put out two teams every week, would lead to a lot of clubs closing their doors unfortunately.

This is true. My club has 5 teams with two teams in the same division. Teams in high divisions comprise extremely competitive and skilled players - many played high level domestic cricket in their home countries. This is true of other clubs as well. Newer clubs tend to have fewer teams, smaller clubs that I know of have minimum two teams.

Again, cricket in the US is the labo(u)r of love - there is no expectation nor support from the states. From league organization, down to ground maintenance, everything is done by cricket playing volunteers.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: GoodLeave on August 30, 2017, 01:07:31 PM
The more I think about it, the more I like grade Cricket.  Biggie, I take it if your team are getting stuffed every week and you don't have sufficient depth to reshuffle, you can elect to drop a grade?

If it wasn't full of spiders. I'd be over to Aus tomorrow.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Biggie Smalls on August 30, 2017, 09:59:03 PM
The more I think about it, the more I like grade Cricket.  Biggie, I take it if your team are getting stuffed every week and you don't have sufficient depth to reshuffle, you can elect to drop a grade?

If it wasn't full of spiders. I'd be over to Aus tomorrow.


Nope . If 1s are getting stuffed each week they will likely finish last ( you would assume the best players are already being picked , so you can change/drop/swap some players etc and hope you get better performances ). If 5s are getting stuffed each week it means that your clubs worst players are worse than other clubs worst players ( you could , theoretically,  put higher grade players in 5s but no one wants to do this because the higher a grade the more club championship points that are earned for a win.... its a disincentive to weaken your higher grades just to stack your lower grades). The middle grades , 4/3/2 , if they are getting done like a dinner every week, would be making changes to the side ,  bringing in players from a grade up or down , trying to find a competitive balance .
So , yeah , potentially,  the lowest and highest grades can have a few stragglers at the bottom of the table (although its never the same clubs indefinitely , and when you have 20 or 14 , whatever , teams , this would often be the case regardless). The middle grades are pretty much immune to this .

Ps  spiders are nothing , its the drop bears that are the real danger .
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Biggie Smalls on August 30, 2017, 10:14:08 PM
Not trying to offend anyone .... i dont look down on park/village cricket - I've played plenty of it myself , and know there are always plenty of players who could , if they wanted to , play grade/higher level comps etc .
 If a team is rurally located , fair enough , it's a bit hard to expect them to go to a different team or club simply because they are too good/crap in their current comp. However , in urban/suburban instances , in big cricket playing countries , this can be easily avoided....just play in a comp that suits your commitment levels , and play for a team /in a division that suits your playing abilities..... nothing new there !
I was making points that you can have a system whereby you can avoid convoluted points systems and promotion /relegation .... and even if your comp (ie park or village comp) , club , or team can't withstand the pressures/influnces of a graded system , a comp can just administrate - adjust the teams in each division, based on team composition,  performance , without a formal promotion /relegation system . But , even if a comp does still want formal promotion /relegation , it is no real reason to have such twisted points structures..... just have finals ! The top 4, 6 teams fight it out to win the comp and who wil be the top 2, 3, whatever,  teams to get promoted . You can even have a bottom of the table finals series too,  to see who gets relegated . Sure beats a system that encourages a team to bat first , or bowl first or whatever ( or , god forbid , declare at 3/18 !).
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Seniorplayer on August 31, 2017, 09:14:41 AM
 Having won 15 out of 16 matches  over 4 months and a big points gap between ourselves and the team finishing second  seems pointless   To have a  final or a  finals knockout day surely winning  over a season is better.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: play-yourself-in on August 31, 2017, 10:11:06 PM
What happened at the Oval today makes you rethink the spirit of cricket!!!!
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: enlightened on September 01, 2017, 05:54:58 AM
That has nothing to do with cricket.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: jblowe on September 01, 2017, 10:50:57 AM
[url]http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/cricket/little-welsh-team-caused-absolute-13536134[/url] ([url]http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/cricket/little-welsh-team-caused-absolute-13536134[/url])

I thought this was worth posting. I absolutely love this. Against the spirit of the game? Most definitely. But they got the job done.


I wonder if they offered them a T20 bash after!!!

This sort of manipulating of the rules goes on all the time.  A few years back when we were top of the league, if there was a chance of rain, the opposition would be trying to get the game called off or abandoned. In one division 1 game, we bowled the opposition out for 60 ish. Then it rained during tea. During the interval I heard the opposition Captain tell all his bowlers to change into trainers, when we came out they were slipping about on the used ends, claiming to the Umpires it was to dangerous to play. Lucky for us the umpires were having none of it and we won in under 6 overs.
The reason for this is, in our League rules you get nothing (apart from bonus points) for losing but you get 5 points for the abandoned game, other clubs would rather not play and get 5 point, than play and get beat.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: csnew on September 05, 2017, 07:32:43 AM
Hijack this thread slightly and post another against the spirit of cricket:

Pollard bowling a massive no ball to deny lewis a 100
https://twitter.com/i/moments/904701510717771777

Shades of Mo amir at lords with the size of that no ball
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: northernboy1987 on September 05, 2017, 07:58:22 AM
Hijack this thread slightly and post another against the spirit of cricket:

Pollard bowling a massive no ball to deny lewis a 100
https://twitter.com/i/moments/904701510717771777

Shades of Mo amir at lords with the size of that no ball

Ridiculous. Can't understand what goes through some peoples heads.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: DorsetDan on September 05, 2017, 09:15:59 AM
The original questionable decision in this thread at least makes sense as the team got something out of it. I just can't get my head around why Pollard would bother be such a *&%$
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: northernboy1987 on September 05, 2017, 10:37:40 AM
The original questionable decision in this thread at least makes sense as the team got something out of it. I just can't get my head around why Pollard would bother be such a *&%$

My thoughts exactly, your team has been battered either way the only thing you gain by denying Lewis his ton is a reputation as a cock.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Kulli on September 05, 2017, 10:54:17 AM
While we're sidetracking things, what about this one from Andre Russel a few years ago?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fegRyDcJF6Y
 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fegRyDcJF6Y)
I have disagreed fairly strongly with a few teammates about whether this is acceptable or not.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Big Mac on September 05, 2017, 11:03:02 AM
Hijack this thread slightly and post another against the spirit of cricket:

Pollard bowling a massive no ball to deny lewis a 100
https://twitter.com/i/moments/904701510717771777

Shades of Mo amir at lords with the size of that no ball

Same thing happened in a Sri Lanka-India ODI a few years back iirc, it's so ridiculously petty.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: csnew on September 05, 2017, 11:11:42 AM
Same thing happened in a Sri Lanka-India ODI a few years back iirc, it's so ridiculously petty.

Saint Sangakarra was the one who asked his bowler to do it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFgiZHxgAUA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFgiZHxgAUA)
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: DorsetDan on September 05, 2017, 11:17:23 AM
At that level it is a cheap trick but I'm not too against it as the batsman should be watching the ball. A few people have done that against Watson and it can't be a coincidence Watson was facing them all. It's not so much that ball which is interesting but the next one as it had the intended effect of breaking concentration and nearly getting the wicket. I think Johnson also bowled one at Watson like that but from behind the umpire a bit like the first one in this video but with a halted run up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo7fWqmpitk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo7fWqmpitk)
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Big Mac on September 05, 2017, 11:19:47 AM
Saint Sangakarra was the one who asked his bowler to do it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFgiZHxgAUA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFgiZHxgAUA)

It's always the case isn't it? The ones that make the most noise about playing the game "the right way" and give lectures on the spirit of cricket are often the ones who do that kind of thing.

On the other hand, the Russell and Mitch Johnson clips are just funny to me.
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: rickjames on September 13, 2017, 12:00:19 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/wales/41253545 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/wales/41253545)
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: Neon Cricket on September 13, 2017, 01:14:29 PM
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/wales/41253545[/url] ([url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/wales/41253545[/url])


Odds on a 2 point deduction?
Title: Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
Post by: edge on September 13, 2017, 05:42:12 PM
Odds on a 2 point deduction?
Oh I hope so!