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Author Topic: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"  (Read 2738 times)

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InternalTraining

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Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
« Reply #60 on: August 30, 2017, 12:49:48 AM »


Now i understand the problem , and the reason your comps need such convoluted bonus points systems.  Aussie grade structure seems waaaaay better to me . There are multiple grades . No promotion and relegation of teams . 3rd grade in 2016 still plays 3rd grade in 2017.... because it's 3rd grade ! Each player is chosen in a grade , their performance dictactes if they , as individuals,  are 'promoted' or 'relegated' into a higher or lower grade . Sure , team composition may change often (even on a fortnightly basis) , and if you , or others around you , have an inconsistent season you may play in a few grades . But so what ? It makes it challenging , you are playing for your spot aswell as playing for your team and club . You also get to potentially play with more people at your club too . I think its infinitely better , and the fact you only need to find the semifinalists via the comp points means you can avoid all these unnecessary shenanigans.

I think you quoted the wrong post, our system has no "bonus" point system. Infact, it is very straight forward and also very competitive. At the end of the day, every one has a lot of fun. Cricket in states is the labo(u)r of love. :)
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northernboy1987

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Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
« Reply #61 on: August 30, 2017, 07:52:33 AM »

I don't think we have the number of participants needed for a grade system over here in the UK, would mean every club having to have 3-5 teams (presuming you had 3-5 grades) whereas a lot of clubs in our area struggle to put out two teams every week, would lead to a lot of clubs closing their doors unfortunately.
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Biggie Smalls

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Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
« Reply #62 on: August 30, 2017, 08:41:45 AM »

I think you quoted the wrong post, our system has no "bonus" point system. Infact, it is very straight forward and also very competitive. At the end of the day, every one has a lot of fun. Cricket in states is the labo(u)r of love. :)


I used your post as an example of promotion/relegation . Other previous posts noted promotion and relegation necesstating a varied point structure (often including bonus points).
I wasn't actually trying to compare the oz system to the u.s one .... i simply used reference to promotion/relegation to start a point . :)
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Boondougal

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Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
« Reply #63 on: August 30, 2017, 08:44:41 AM »

I like the principle of a grade system.. I guess that way you are always playing against others who are theoretically the same "grade" and such the games should always be competitive... too many times I have played against players who simply are too good for the league they are in but money / ego etc is playing a large part.

I assume you can only get picked for the grade you are performing at so I can see lots of issues associated with having to drop people etc etc when yo have too many at one grade and not able to get a team if you don't have enough at another grade but I'm sure there are rules /  approaches to iron all that out.

I can see how it could be set up to produce / identify the better cricketers though... which I guess helps the professional game.
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Biggie Smalls

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Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
« Reply #64 on: August 30, 2017, 08:57:36 AM »

So what happens if you're consistently the best or worst team in a grade? You just keep getting easy wins/getting stuffed year after year? Or even if you're mid-table, what are your ambitions for each season. No promotion/relegation surely makes it very reliant on the majority of teams being closely matched for there to be much point in it all.


Your club would either need great depth ( or a severe lack thereof ) to continually win easily , or get stuffed , year after year . Besides , if , say , 3rd grade at your club, won the comp , some of those players would likely end up playing in a higher grade the next year . If you came last in a grade it would mean those guys should get picked in a lower grade and depth/recruitment needs to be worked on .
Any team that finishes in a similar position , year after year , would still have the player roster of that team change regularly  (whether fortnightly,  yearly etc ), and it would be due to the strength or weakness of club depth .
In reality,  some clubs consistently do well in the club championship  (points across all grades) , but winners of each grade changes regularly. ... so the system doesnt tend to have perpetual super clubs and cellar dwellers .
In terms of no promotion /relegation equating to teams needing to be closely matched .... this could be true if teams were fixed for the season , but you can change the side for each grade each game.... the goal of selectors is to make each side strong enough to compete  without penalizing the strength of any other grade ( player movement restrictions are only as follows - to be eligible for semis a player must play 3 of the last 4 games in that grade or lower . This stops you sending all the 1s players down to 2s in the last couple rounds once you realise that 1s cant make the finals , for example).
At the beginning of the next season all players are regraded from scratch .
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Seniorplayer

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Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
« Reply #65 on: August 30, 2017, 09:02:51 AM »


Your club would either need great depth ( or a severe lack thereof ) to continually win easily , or get stuffed , year after year . Besides , if , say , 3rd grade at your club, won the comp , some of those players would likely end up playing in a higher grade the next year . If you came last in a grade it would mean those guys should get picked in a lower grade and depth/recruitment needs to be worked on .
Any team that finishes in a similar position , year after year , would still have the player roster of that team change regularly  (whether fortnightly,  yearly etc ), and it would be due to the strength or weakness of club depth .
In reality,  some clubs consistently do well in the club championship  (points across all grades) , but winners of each grade changes regularly. ... so the system doesnt tend to have perpetual super clubs and cellar dwellers .
In terms of no promotion /relegation equating to teams needing to be closely matched .... this could be true if teams were fixed for the season , but you can change the side for each grade each game.... the goal of selectors is to make each side strong enough to compete  without penalizing the strength of any other grade ( player movement restrictions are only as follows - to be eligible for semis a player must play 3 of the last 4 games in that grade or lower . This stops you sending all the 1s players down to 2s in the last couple rounds once you realise that 1s cant make the finals , for example).
At the beginning of the next season all players are regraded from scratch .

Wouldn't work for us we  only have one team
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Biggie Smalls

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Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
« Reply #66 on: August 30, 2017, 09:03:27 AM »

I like the principle of a grade system.. I guess that way you are always playing against others who are theoretically the same "grade" and such the games should always be competitive... too many times I have played against players who simply are too good for the league they are in but money / ego etc is playing a large part.

I assume you can only get picked for the grade you are performing at so I can see lots of issues associated with having to drop people etc etc when yo have too many at one grade and not able to get a team if you don't have enough at another grade but I'm sure there are rules /  approaches to iron all that out.

I can see how it could be set up to produce / identify the better cricketers though... which I guess helps the professional game.


A grade system tends to minimise world beaters playing in dud teams/comps, or useless guys being carried by a great team .
Grade system does help identify players and create the pathway and motivation for players to go to higher levels .
Dropping players can be a negative , as it can be (or at least perceived to be ) political,  and players can feel hard done by . If so , go play park cricket and you can avoid it all .
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Biggie Smalls

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Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
« Reply #67 on: August 30, 2017, 09:06:08 AM »

Wouldn't work for us we  only have one team



From my perspective,  if a club only has 1 team it is a team not a club . One team clubs should play park/village level cricket , and if the players are too good , then they should move to another club .....or go to a grade club .
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tom line

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Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
« Reply #68 on: August 30, 2017, 09:11:09 AM »



From my perspective,  if a club only has 1 team it is a team not a club . One team clubs should play park/village level cricket , and if the players are too good , then they should move to another club .....or go to a grade club .

And that would then kill village cricket even more than its current dying rate as the better players from single team clubs leave and they have to fold as they haven't got enough players.

Team I play for on Saturdays have 2 sides,  if one week we lose 3 regulars who normally play most weeks, due to holidays or other commitments we will struggle to fill 2 teams and the 2nd team will have no strength to be competitive, and that's with two team clubs, imagine how much it would damage a one team club to lose 3 regulars
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roco

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Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
« Reply #69 on: August 30, 2017, 09:14:42 AM »

I think a lot of this talk is assuming everyone wants to play serious competitive hard cricket year after year

what about the people that don't have the time to put into practice etc with work and family should they just stop playing?

Grade system would only work if you had less clubs so loads of small clubs banding together which wont happen as there is history etc with family having played there and the ground.

Hard sometimes to move clubs if the closest other club is 30 miles away
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Biggie Smalls

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Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
« Reply #70 on: August 30, 2017, 09:21:19 AM »

And that would then kill village cricket even more than its current dying rate as the better players from single team clubs leave and they have to fold as they haven't got enough players.

Team I play for on Saturdays have 2 sides,  if one week we lose 3 regulars who normally play most weeks, due to holidays or other commitments we will struggle to fill 2 teams and the 2nd team will have no strength to be competitive, and that's with two team clubs, imagine how much it would damage a one team club to lose 3 regulars


Good players still only play park cricket if they don't want the extra time commitment of playing grade. ...so if your two team club has a struggle getting numbers etc , thats a perfect example of a club that should have borh its teams entering in park cricket comps ( one in a grade , one in b grade , for example ) . If you have a park /village structure under the grade system then all your concerns can be alleviated.
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Biggie Smalls

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Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
« Reply #71 on: August 30, 2017, 09:26:44 AM »

I think a lot of this talk is assuming everyone wants to play serious competitive hard cricket year after year

what about the people that don't have the time to put into practice etc with work and family should they just stop playing?

Grade system would only work if you had less clubs so loads of small clubs banding together which wont happen as there is history etc with family having played there and the ground.

Hard sometimes to move clubs if the closest other club is 30 miles away


Players that dont have the time etc dont have to stop playing , they can play park cricket . And you dont even need promotion or relegation vis convoluted points system there either.... here , most of our park comps have teams go up or down a grade at  the start of a new season , but it is left to administraters to organise what grade of park cricket they are placed in (dependent on where they finish previous year , current playing roster etc ).
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roco

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Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
« Reply #72 on: August 30, 2017, 09:31:39 AM »

I was only asking as I may have misinterpreted you

you make park cricket sound like a bit of a social game like we would call sunday friendly's when there are people who want a more competitive game and are capable just cannot commit every sat and training every week.

We have a lot of small village clubs here with 1 - 2 teams in who are still very competitive but only have a small playing base which would not survive the system you propose so I doubt it would ever get time of day out here

I agree the points systems used around the uk are ludicrous as so complicated why the ECB just cannot standardise 1 set of rules is beyond me 
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Seniorplayer

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Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
« Reply #73 on: August 30, 2017, 09:39:01 AM »



From my perspective,  if a club only has 1 team it is a team not a club . One team clubs should play park/village level cricket , and if the players are too good , then they should move to another club .....or go to a grade club .
We are a village club along with the pub tennis club and gardening club we are part of village life and the village takes an interest we won the title   if we are to good  at this level it's  not our fault  we can only field  one team so why  should we move elsewhere lose our identity and the village lose its club
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 09:47:40 AM by Seniorplayer »
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InternalTraining

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Re: Against the "Spirit of Cricket?"
« Reply #74 on: August 30, 2017, 12:40:46 PM »

I don't think we have the number of participants needed for a grade system over here in the UK, would mean every club having to have 3-5 teams (presuming you had 3-5 grades) whereas a lot of clubs in our area struggle to put out two teams every week, would lead to a lot of clubs closing their doors unfortunately.

This is true. My club has 5 teams with two teams in the same division. Teams in high divisions comprise extremely competitive and skilled players - many played high level domestic cricket in their home countries. This is true of other clubs as well. Newer clubs tend to have fewer teams, smaller clubs that I know of have minimum two teams.

Again, cricket in the US is the labo(u)r of love - there is no expectation nor support from the states. From league organization, down to ground maintenance, everything is done by cricket playing volunteers.
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