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Author Topic: Willow ping and grains: does this make sense?  (Read 8399 times)

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uknsaunders

Re: Willow ping and grains: does this make sense?
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2015, 01:01:19 PM »

I'm with Adi on clubs being allowed to buy their own balls. Most leagues use it as a method to extract sponsorship from ball suppliers while pocketing the difference and ripping off clubs ie. league gets 2500 a year, in return the clubs order 600 balls @ 15 = 9000 but what they actually get is a ball worth 11 and the rest is paying for the sponsorship. If clubs were allowed to choose there own balls then they would get a better ball for the same money.

That's a bit simplistic as some clubs couldn't afford good balls while others can, leading to matches that could be dominated by different balls. Sorry for going off topic a little.
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WalkingWicket37

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Re: Willow ping and grains: does this make sense?
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2015, 01:05:02 PM »

But how many clubs would by the 2 sports direct specials to save money?
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Northern monkey

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Re: Willow ping and grains: does this make sense?
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2015, 01:10:15 PM »

ive found this ball issue to be getting worse
the cheaper balls are bat and hand breakers, ive seen both in league and friendlies
coupled with stupid amounts of early swing.
The average clubbie has no idea how rubbish these balls really are

my apologies for going off topic,(which is very interesting)
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uknsaunders

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Re: Willow ping and grains: does this make sense?
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2015, 01:13:34 PM »

But how many clubs would by the 2 sports direct specials to save money?

There would be a few but the sports direct balls I have had recently just go soft very quickly. Anyway you can set specific set of suppliers or a minimum spend per ball. I have got some very decent balls from a local supplier for 6. They shine well, hold their shape and have a decent seam. Perfectly acceptable for low level league cricket and certainly not bat breakers. The bat breakers I have seen recently tend to be imported unknown brand balls that some guy thought was a bargain until it trashes 3 bats in the first game.
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smilley792

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Re: Willow ping and grains: does this make sense?
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2015, 01:18:20 PM »

In terms of bats, we are lucky. Our league balls are ridicolously soft. Which poses the other problem. There square after ten overs.


We lobbied for a ball change as the balls were from a previous sponsor that no longer sponsors league, but there ball use is still wrote in the league.

We had a chance to try new balls in a dead rubber, they were good held there shape and shine and had swing without being over the top.
In the oppo innings our number 3 put one in the woods in over 8, was never found again so there spare was a previous league ball.

In the report the opposition then slagged the new ball off despite only using it for 8 overs. So the league ruled to continue using the crap soft balls for the foreseeable future.

Cricket shot itself in the foot that day.
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tushar sehgal

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Re: Willow ping and grains: does this make sense?
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2015, 01:19:25 PM »

Hi Tushar,

Yes, I know Vimal but only as a player. He plays for Abbotsford Cricket Club with Jimmy Hansra.

I play at a higher division that uses a white Kookaburra (colour clothing), not sure what model though, will check it out, But i know that the other divisions use a Red Kookaburra Senator cricket ball.

Is there a proper cricket league in Halifax?

Yes we have a proper league mate but not as good a standard or # of players as BC. We do have a decent enough provincial team, which comes from league players, that is now on par with Quebec :). We lost to them last season but had beaten then 2 seasons in a row before that.

all our cricket T-20 or OD so white ball and colored kit for us :), I have only played against BC once i think it was back in 2008 during the Scotia Bank T-20 at Maple Leaf CC in Toronto
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GDP1964

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Re: Willow ping and grains: does this make sense?
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2015, 02:09:32 PM »

I introduced the Tiflex ball into the Cambs league both tucker leagues and senior and junior leagues what I did was that on a certain Saturday certain leagues were given a ball each with a ball report form this came at no cost to the clubs all forms were collected and sent to the powers to be end result overwhelming result to Tiflex ball hence the reason they are still the choice of ball for this League. If there are cricket boards out there wanting to do an above mentioned trial please contact me there are some very generous Sponsorships being offered but more importantly a very good ball will be supplied.
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Andythomo21

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Re: Willow ping and grains: does this make sense?
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2015, 02:24:29 PM »

Gary,

Our league currently uses Readers balls but I'm sure some kind of trial with the Tiflex ball would be accepted by the league.  If it benefits the league and the players playing in it then why not?
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Paul024

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Re: Willow ping and grains: does this make sense?
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2015, 04:54:06 PM »

Starting a new T20 here in the states, would willing to be trial.

"I introduced the Tiflex ball into the Cambs league both tucker leagues and senior and junior leagues what I did was that on a certain Saturday certain leagues were given a ball each with a ball report form this came at no cost to the clubs all forms were collected and sent to the powers to be end result overwhelming result to Tiflex ball hence the reason they are still the choice of ball for this League. If there are cricket boards out there wanting to do an above mentioned trial please contact me there are some very generous Sponsorships being offered but more importantly a very good ball will be supplied."
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The Doctor

Re: Willow ping and grains: does this make sense?
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2015, 09:15:35 PM »

Another topic right up my street - I hope you dont mind me gate-crashing your thread

Have been reading the forums for many years now. Thought I will contribute. I am starting with a long thread so excuse me. I have always wondered about the explanation for following statements that people often make about willow:

#1: More/tighter the grains better the ping
#2: More/tighter the grains lesser the life
#3: Bat with more number grains or tighter grains opens quicker than one with lesser number of grains

All correct assumptions, the thing to remember is that willow is natural, and there will always be exceptions to this rule, as willow follows a natural variation curve in its properties

#4: Knocking-in opens up the bat

Actually the opposite - knocking in fully compresses the fibres at the very surface- acting like a micro press

So I did some research and here is the gist. Please let me know if it makes any sense. Still some questions need answers:

The cross section of a willow bat/cleft/tree reveals a series of parallel straws (http://www.psmicrographs.co.uk/corkscrew-willow-xylem--sem-/science-image/80201781). This seems to be unique in willow among other tree's. The moisture content can escape very quickly due to these open ends when cut hence the need to wax/varnish the ends as the cleft is cut. At the same time, if left on a wet surface moisture can rise up into the toe and beyond rapidly through capillary action. This explains why the toe swells up sometimes. In pressing one aims to harden a thin layer of the face by compression and this in essence flattens the straws and allows them to flex into the soft middle which upon return to shape gives the rebound. More the natural moisture trapped in the straws, more the surface will rebound. Low density willow means that the straws are wider in diameter tapping more moisture.

You are right, willow dos not have a typical, cell structure as it is diffuse porous instead of ring porous - and this is key to why it has excelled in the use in Cricket Bats, and also the reason why willow grown in different climates is not so suited, as the change in climate, changes its cell structure.

There are two types of cell - transport & structural. The transport are wider / thin walled compared to the structural, during pressing these cells get squashed - press too fiercely (different to hard press) and you will crush the cell destroying the cell wall. When a bat is exposed to water these cells open back up - hence the swelling.

Moisture has the opposite effect, less moisture and the bat will play better and there is a direct correlation to this, which has been tested. However, it is not quite that simple, as the dryer you go the more brittle the bat will become and you will get a reduction in endurance, to dry and the bat will break up in a matter of games. The ideal moisture content is 10 - 11%


Now about grains (copied from http://workshopcompanion.com/KnowHow/Design/Nature_of_Wood/1_Wood_Grain/1_Wood_Grain.htm): At the very center is the pith. In some trees, this is much softer and possibly a different color than the surrounding heartwood. Heartwood is made up of dead cells that no longer serve any purpose except to support the tree. Next is the sapwood, which carries water, minerals, and plant sugars between the roots and the leaves. This is often lighter in color than the heartwood. Outside the sapwood, close to the surface, is the cambium, a thin layer of living cells. These cells manufacture the wood as they grow. The cambium is covered by a protective layer of bark. The cambium grows rapidly at the beginning of each growing season, creating light colored springwood. As the climate warms, it slows down and produces darker summerwood. This later growth is somewhat denser and harder than the early springwood. As the weather turns cold, the cambium becomes dormant until the next spring. This cycle produces distinctive growth rings.

The darker color of the grain, which is also the harder part, runs perpendicular to the face of the bat. I would imagine that tighter grains would result in a overall harder surface that will be harder to flex inwards. So how does having tighter grains result in a more "pingy" bat? Some say that the harder surface has a better transfer of energy to the ball and lesser vibrations. So by that standard, we should press our bats more. I am not quite sure how the life of the bat is related. Some say that tighter grain bat is older wood, which makes sense. But I am not sure why older wood would break easier if it harder. Does it make the bat more brittle?

You are confusing hardness with stiffness - more grains increases the stiffness - a harder press results in a harder surface. There is a direct correlation between stiffness and brittleness - hence this is where "the more grains a bat has it wont last as long" myth comes from.

The process of knocking knits the surface fibres together forming the thin layer at the top. This layer flexes and rebounds upon impact and the inner straws go through temporary compression and decompression. I believe knocking helps in making the inner straw like structures loosen so they can compress easier and then decompress back to their original shape hence providing better rebound.

As above knocking in actually compresses the cells at the surface even further.

Not sure if all this makes sense. It would be good to get some discussion going.


Some great points, the majority of my research actually supported the urban myths of bats and performance. It was however great to understand why, and use this knowledge to increase the performance of bats

GDP1964

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Re: Willow ping and grains: does this make sense?
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2015, 10:06:54 PM »

Please pm or contact me on 07525727782 for those that may be interested in trialling a new ball re T 20 would you be looking at White or pink ball ?
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wayward_hayward

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Re: Willow ping and grains: does this make sense?
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2015, 10:16:36 PM »

I introduced the Tiflex ball into the Cambs league both tucker leagues and senior and junior leagues what I did was that on a certain Saturday certain leagues were given a ball each with a ball report form this came at no cost to the clubs all forms were collected and sent to the powers to be end result overwhelming result to Tiflex ball hence the reason they are still the choice of ball for this League. If there are cricket boards out there wanting to do an above mentioned trial please contact me there are some very generous Sponsorships being offered but more importantly a very good ball will be supplied.

Having played in the cambs league last season, I was impressed with the ball used in Tucker 1 and 2 (very dark in colour, held it shape and gave a good shine if you worked hard) while pretty disappointed with the ball used in the lower leagues (much more traditional red and a really nasty plastic finish that never lost its shine). The lower league ball certainly felt a lot cheaper.
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procricket

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Re: Willow ping and grains: does this make sense?
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2015, 10:33:49 PM »

Another topic right up my street - I hope you dont mind me gate-crashing your thread

Some great points, the majority of my research actually supported the urban myths of bats and performance. It was however great to understand why, and use this knowledge to increase the performance of bats

You want a leading technician in willow even the suppliers trust there you go great read streaky thanks for your time.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 10:37:33 PM by procricket B3 »
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