Custom Bats Cricket Forum

Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: CricketXI on July 09, 2018, 09:08:22 PM

Title: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: CricketXI on July 09, 2018, 09:08:22 PM
I am not sure where to post this or this was already been discussed.

Per my understanding the raw clefts are graded based upon the beauty of the gains or the density of the cleft.
Beauty in terms of straightness, equidistance and blemish free clefts.
Density is simple though  p=m/V
I have read/heard many theories about no. of grains vs performance
Different bat makers suggesting different no. of gains for a good performing bats. But lately I have seen many Grade 1 bats with as less as 6 grains very widely spaced in some cases not that straight.
So is there some kind of a change in grading system, I understand the supply and demand  chain:
More demand less product raises the product cost, but when I see bat manufacturers offering a new segment every season labeling them as Grade 1+, pro grade, players , limited edition, reserve edition and so on.. makes me believe either they are not selling the product at the righteous price or they have been cheating customer all these years by selling some thing which was not the top grade wood.
 
I guess there are no such grading as Grade 1+, pro, players or reserved or limited edition bats and these are the same Grade 1 bats or in some bad cases grade 2 or lower grade being passed as top end willow.

When people get the bats directly from the bat maker/ manufacturer they usually end up getting less cleaner looking bat (cleaner in terms of beautiful) as compared to the off the shelf products.
With the pro players started using the heart wood bats which is generally classified as lower grade is now being passed as players grade or grade G1+ at a way higher price then it should be. And I am assuming most of those bat companies are not even making pro bats, when I say companies I am not referring to the original bat makers as them might not even know what these bats will be finally grades as or who they are actually making the bats for.
Now for density for a laymen buyer like most of us (not carrying the sophisticated equipment ) density will directly mean the light weight bats which could be due to artificial/natural drying, low density, willow being actually light with many unknow reasons. So no one can be sure if you are exactly getting what you are paying for.

Now comes the main thing of all Performance :
From all the little bit of knowledge I have, performance-looks does not go hand in hand its like sending a beauty queen in a wrestling competition.
I know some will say that pro bats perform and they are clean as well but guys these are sponsored players they will get the cream, when manufacturers have so much to chose from they surely can reserve the best thing for the sponsored players.
And I have heard people saying that performance is controlled by pressing, a adequately pressed bat should perform regardless to the grade.
In that context, I have read many reputed companies/bat makes/manufacturers claiming that they grade their bats on performance, which I do not know or have an idea of how are they doing it.
As Base ball bats have some BBCOR rating system for the bat’s performance and I was unable to find if there is any for cricket bats, and I do not think the bat makers have any scientific way of knowing how will the bat perform and tapping a bat 20-30 times (which I am sure is not the case with all the clefts that are being processed for bat making) with a mallet is no surety of performance.
And when you get a less responsive bat (mallet/ball ping test), they are being sold by claiming that they will perform later or after proper knocking in. Which is to me like buying some thing of black market as there is no accountability on the performance and I think there is no manufacturer claiming that they are making less/non performing bats.

There are many points that I can add to this but I would like to know your thoughts regarding the same.

Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: LEACHY48 on July 09, 2018, 09:28:59 PM
For me this is a fairly simple topic.

Point number 1: 6+ grains blemish free is officially G1 willow according to the industry standard of JS Wright’s. Manufacturers have to order X amount of G3/2 in order to receive X amount of G1, of said amount of G1 clefts you may have something along the lines of 2% with 10+ grains blemish free with no heartwood. The rest will have less grains and may have some red wood. If it has been purchased as a G1 cleft the manufacturer would take a huge hit on the margin to then downgrade the bat to a. G2 and would be stupid to do so if it meets the minimum standard as set by Wrights. Manufacturers such as Gray Nics have the luxury of growing their own willow so sell whatever they want as G1 because they haven’t purchased the willow as a specific grade and therefore are not ‘bound’ to a specific grade for it.

The G1+/pro/players grade is all marketing BS it may be a low density great looking cleft and therefore a manufacturer may charge a premium due to the rarity of such cleft. But it is still a G1.

Performance grading is a load of crap. Otherwise everyone using a low grade bat wouldn’t be able to hit it off the square. Plenty of people on here use low grade willow bats that absolutely fly and arguably perform better than the corresponding G1 bat. For the best grading look at GM. They explain each grade honestly.

Regarding playing a bat into performing; bats always get better as they are knocked in. That is a fact. If a bat is under pressed, knockingnin will harden it up and it will perform. If a cleft is pressed to within an inch of its life, the grains will begin to open up and the handle Ratans loosen and eventually and it will perform if enough time is invested into it. However, with that said. Sometimes an over pressed bat has been killed and won’t spring into life. It might just be a toilet bat. Wood is natural and sometimes this happens.
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: SD on July 10, 2018, 12:22:16 AM
Certainly when I look back to bats I still have in the garage that I used in the 90s, today's grading is much more generous.  In order the meet the demand for G1 bats whilst demand for willow going up all the time, bats that would previous have been sold as G2 are being labelled up as G1.  I don't find willow grading particularly honest, but when there is an effective monopoly over its supply with one company having such a significant proportion of the market I guess this shouldn't come as a surprise.

In terms of performance, without objective testing, it is difficult to say whether aesthetic grading has any impact on playing quality (I have used some lower grade bats that have performed better than higher grade bats I have owend).  Obviously those best placed to research this are bat manufacturers but then they have little to gain from releasing any testing which could show that grading has no impact on performance and therefore erode the premium that can be charged for the most aesthetic pieces of willow.   
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: prim0pyr0 on July 10, 2018, 01:13:53 AM
Most low density clefts will have 6-7 grains. Possibly density doesnt matter as much to pros now with the bat regs on size
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: CricketXI on July 10, 2018, 04:28:58 AM
[In terms of performance, without objective testing, it is difficult to say whether aesthetic grading has any impact on playing quality (I have used some lower grade bats that have performed better than higher grade bats I have owend).  Obviously those best placed to research this are bat manufacturers but then they have little to gain from releasing any testing which could show that grading has no impact on performance and therefore erode the premium that can be charged for the most aesthetic pieces of willow.]

As I mentioned in my above post "performance should be quantitive property for a cricket bat", same as that of baseball bat, if performance can be measured for a base ball bat made out of Ash or maple wood so the same thing can be done for English willow and if there is only few major supplier it becomes more imperative.

[Most low density clefts will have 6-7 grains. Possibly density dosen't matter as much to pros now with the bat regs on size]

I am not sure how true is this -"Most low density clefts will have 6-7 grains."I am not questioning your knowledge but its my lack of knowledge about the co-relation between the density and number of grains and as i mentioned in my earlier post -highly dried out bats can be sold as low density clefts as for pros I guess they are less concerned about the density than balance and feel.
Balance is a very subjective thing as it mostly depends upon players wrist and forearm strength and the angle of the down swing of the bat and a lots of other minor factors like how and from where one hold a bats etc, a good balanced bat for  one could be totally out of balance for other.


Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: Ajdal on July 10, 2018, 06:25:25 AM
Where art thou @InternalTraining  :D
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: Seniorplayer on July 10, 2018, 07:53:07 AM
Clefts are firstly graded on looks they are sold  in there raw state to batmakers on looks  in batches  of grade ratios batmakers then regrade and regrade again  depending on the finished product.
But as already stated grades change based on supply availability.
The best of the best clefts  that make the top  bats are natural low density
As for density and grains  generally the older the tree the greater the number of grains and the lesser the density
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: JK Lewis on July 10, 2018, 08:25:57 AM
Willow suppliers can only grade clefts on how they look, as the 'performance' of raw unpressed wood is not really testable. Companies such as Kippax are in the best position as they grow and process their own trees and can judge the wood at both cleft and bat stage.

Wider grains are more common now, and will continue to be, as willow sets are planted in areas of maximum growth rates to encourage them to mature as quickly as possible. For willow growers and suppliers, maturity in 12 to 15 years is obviously preferable to maturity in 15 to 20 years. Most slower growing trees (therefore with more grains, spaced more narrowly) have been felled and of course take longer to replace. Hence the reason willow suppliers are keen to promote the 'benefits' of wide grain clefts.

A good bat, made with care by an experienced batmaker will likely perform well, regardless of the grade of the cleft. For me, shot value is the only worthwhile measure of bat quality. Ain't no reference to willow grade in the scorebook.
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on July 10, 2018, 08:26:08 AM
@LEACHY48 while JS Wright's do give guidance on grading, there is no "industry standard"

A brand could sell a 2 grain bat covered in knots and stains as "grade 1", "pro grade" or and other name they like if they wished.

http://www.cricketbatwillow.com/blades-grading/ (http://www.cricketbatwillow.com/blades-grading/)
Quote
A GRADE 1 BLADE
A Grade 1 is the best looking blade, though it will not necessarily play the best. There may be some red wood evident on the edge of the blade.  The grain on the face will be straight and there will be a minimum of 6 grains visible.  There may be the odd small knot or speck in the edge or back but the playing area should be clean.

A GRADE 2 BLADE
A Grade 2 blade is also very good quality and normally a larger amount of red wood can be seen on the edge of a blade, this has no effect on the playing ability of the bat it is purely cosmetic. Again there will be at least 6 straight grains on the face of the blade with maybe some blemishes, pin knots or “speck” visible, we also put the top 2% of the excellent quality butterfly blades that we get into Grade 2.

A GRADE 3 BLADE
 
This is  a middle grade that is produced in much higher numbers than the top grades and it offers very good value for money. A Grade 3 Blade has up to half colour across the blade which again has no direct relation to the playing ability of the wood, it just has less visual attraction. There will be a minimum of 5 grains on the face of the blade which may not always be perfectly straight. Again some small knots or butterfly stain may be present with sometimes more prominent “speck”.

A GRADE 4 BLADE
A Grade 4 Blade is normally over half colour or contains butterfly stain (see our page on Imperfections in Willow). It will still play as well as the other grades. Any number of grains are possible with often only 4 grains, the willow containing ‘butterfly’ stain is very strong, there could also be more “speck” and other faults.


OTHER GRADES AND WHAT MAKES A GOOD BAT?
We have many other Grades which have been developed over the years to satisfy the different demands from all the different markets across the world.

Q: “What makes a good bat?”  The answer is that it depends on the taste of the customer and the skill of the bat maker. A bat should always be chosen on “feel” and not merely what it looks like. There are bound to be some small knots or blemishes on the bat, after all it is a natural product and cannot be expected to be perfect, with no faults at all.

The only main differences in the grade are the visual appearance of the wood including amounts of butterfly stain plus the number of blemishes or knots on the blade and the straightness of the grain. Generally the more colour in the blade the lower the grade, there is however negligible difference in the playing ability, it is purely a perception that if it looks good it will play well, this is not the case.
Butterfly stain (the stain resembles the shape of a butterfly), for example, used to be very popular for its superior strength and playing ability. Unfortunately, these days because it does not “look clean and white” people do not buy it. It does make very good bats that are very strong and perform well.

THE WIDE GRAIN MYTH
Generally we would expect a blade to have wide grain if it has less than 6 grains on the face. The width of the grain is entirely dependent upon how fast the tree has grown, each grain represents one year’s growth. The factors that affect the rate of growth are the soil quality and amount of water available.

In these modern times when growers want a quick return on their investment, trees have been planted in the most ideal site for the tree to grow quickly. This means that in the future there are going to be less narrow grain trees available.  Unfortunately when it takes all this time to grow a tree you cannot allow for changes in ‘fashion’ which could alter from year to year.

In this respect we have cut mature trees in as little as 10 years, but generally 12 to 18 years gives a wider grain with 25 years or more a narrower grain. A narrow grain bat will certainly play well, quicker, but will not have a particularly long life.

On the other hand a wider grain bat (with as little as 4 grains on the face) will play as well, given time, as a narrow grain, it will also , without doubt have a longer life span. The reason for this is that the wood is not as old, so it is stronger and will stand up better to the beating with some of the very hard balls used in matches.

We are finding with the climate changing and growing seasons getting longer, that the amount of narrow grain we are producing is getting less as a percentage.  There is nothing we can do about it and players will have to adapt in the coming years to accepting more wider grains.
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: JK Lewis on July 10, 2018, 09:13:43 AM
Regarding density, I think that much of this is to do with drying, but I also think it is possible to theorize that density will be higher as one gets closer to the centre of the tree. Older wood may well be compressed and compacted by new growth building up around it. So, it would follow that narrower grained clefts might be higher density than wider grain, because narrow grained trees have been growing for longer and the outer half of the cleft has compressed the inner. It is important to remember that although we see grains on a cleft as straight lines, they are in fact sections of circles. So, the 6 years of growth on a 5 grain bat are the same 6 years as the outer half of a 10 grain bat.
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: GarrettJ on July 10, 2018, 09:19:56 AM
best bat i ever had was a 9 grain wobbly thing

https://www.flickr.com/photos/67335654@N02/6130462885/in/photostream/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/67335654@N02/6130462885/in/photostream/)
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: Buzz on July 10, 2018, 09:33:25 AM
Ditto for me John.

But then how do you grade something like this...
(https://s26.postimg.cc/6uhgchjqh/IMG_20180613_211302.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/oxaj3pfl1/)


Much better to let supply and demand work it out.
A bat seller (maker or retailer or ebay frankly) has to work out a price they think the bat will sell at. They will use branding to make it look prettier, but in all reality when you buy a bat either you are happy with it and will pay or you wont.

Whether it is a g1 or velum is mostly ego...

But those pro bats are magnificent 😂😂
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: Seniorplayer on July 10, 2018, 10:55:20 AM
Magnificent they  certainly are skimmed off by the big brands for their pros the lightest of the light and best performing willow but you won't see any available in the shops and it's becoming more difficult to get one from the smaller bat maker I've tried.
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: edge on July 10, 2018, 11:23:13 AM
Grading's daft, and here's an illustration of how: from the left, the first three bats/clefts are all the same grade (butterfly). The last three are sold as (not in order) grades 1, 3 and 4. Waste of time trying to gain much insight from that information, isn't it!

(https://s22.postimg.cc/6yxnm3rg1/IMG_20180710_121933.jpg)
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: LEACHY48 on July 10, 2018, 12:28:03 PM
@LEACHY48 while JS Wright's do give guidance on grading, there is no "industry standard"

A brand could sell a 2 grain bat covered in knots and stains as "grade 1", "pro grade" or and other name they like if they wished.

[url]http://www.cricketbatwillow.com/blades-grading/[/url] ([url]http://www.cricketbatwillow.com/blades-grading/[/url])


yeah true, what I meant was that if a brand purchases a number of clefts that Wrights consider to be G1 they would be silly to then downgrade it as long as it meets the guidance that Wrights supply. Industry standard was the wrong phrase.
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: GarrettJ on July 10, 2018, 12:41:54 PM
i went to Kippax a few years back and they had some amazing clefts .... really special ones.
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: prim0pyr0 on July 10, 2018, 01:33:26 PM
Ditto for me John.

But then how do you grade something like this...
(https://s26.postimg.cc/6uhgchjqh/IMG_20180613_211302.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/oxaj3pfl1/)


Much better to let supply and demand work it out.
A bat seller (maker or retailer or ebay frankly) has to work out a price they think the bat will sell at. They will use branding to make it look prettier, but in all reality when you buy a bat either you are happy with it and will pay or you wont.

Whether it is a g1 or velum is mostly ego...

But those pro bats are magnificent 😂😂

Butterfly =g3
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: CricketXI on July 10, 2018, 02:30:01 PM
As for the normal pros- most of them gets what ever is the best graded and looking bats available to the manufacturer/Supplier, or they allow the player to pick from their collection.
But I am not so sure about what the star sponsored players like Kolhi, Dhoni, Smith or Root etc are getting.
As many sponsors like to send out  6-8 bats to the player to chose from to play with. In which some could be stunning looking bats and some could be extremely average looking bats.
Some supplier like to send 2-3 bats based upon the availability of a cleft deemed good for a pro player

For sure they are getting the cleanest bats with no visible blemishes(Which is a marketing thing for the manufacturer), but I am not sure about the straightness and number of grains. Have seen big stars playing with wobbly grained bats.

For a pro-bat all  the controllable factors(right from raw cleft, weight, balance and finishing) are optimize to produce a master piece with all the major and little details nailed to perfection.

But my point is why cannot the manufacturers/makers can use some scientific method to determine the performance of a bat (As baseball bat are  determined by BBCOR rating system).
This will allow the customer to make a more informed decision in place to picking something with no guarantee of performance.
Currently the bat market is like going to a shop and buying a mystery  box.
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: DorsetDan on July 10, 2018, 02:45:56 PM
It is a variable product. You would have to test every bat which isn't the case in baseball/ golf/ etc. Time and cost would be huge with no benefit to the manufacturer.

The "worst" bats I've always had score the most runs too so why care about ping if it is perfect in the hamds
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on July 10, 2018, 02:54:34 PM
For a pro-bat all  the controllable factors(right from raw cleft, weight, balance and finishing) are optimize to produce a master piece with all the major and little details nailed to perfection.

Is this actually the case though? If so why would so many pro's take their bats for weight reductions etc. (Dawid Malan in Australia being a recent example).

A lot of pros are using bleached bats recently I've noticed. These are likely bleached to hide the fact they're far from a beautiful piece of willow.

As for finishing and the little details, bats like the old (big profile) Warner's wouldn't last very long at all. Surely as long as the sponsors stickers are applied the maker or player are unlikely to care about the small details, so long as it pings!
How often does anyone get close enough to a pro bat to scrutinise the finishing, anyway?
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: InternalTraining on July 10, 2018, 03:07:38 PM
@CricketXI , Cleft grading process as we know it is a pretty much a joke. It is based on flexible "standards" (nobody can really define what is a true "Grade 1") to grab highest prices from consumers. Either way, as consumers, we are pretty screwed. Your best bets are: 1. Look for discount and deals on (great) bats picked up by someone else; 2. Work with an intermediary like Mueleman and others to hand select finest bats that somehow escaped the "pros"; 3. buy used bats. 4. Buy them when they are cheap - stock up on great bats. In this case you might still end up paying a premium but in the long run, you will come out ahead. :D
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: sanredrose on July 10, 2018, 03:22:51 PM
You will end up with good bats if you go with performance over grade. GM 808 bats are a very good example. These are usually classified as G2 but some of them are extremely good. I have one such GM Octane 808 which is my match bat while a GM original sleeps in my closet :D.
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: CricketXI on July 10, 2018, 03:30:14 PM
@WalkingWicket37:
I have never seen a Pro-bat myself but I am assuming that they should be made to absolute perfection and liking of the player using it.
And can not say anything about pro using bleached bats but if they are its just because of product marketing-"The product should be pleasing to eyes".

I am no expert but I guess David Malan might be looking for a lighter bat to counter extra bounce offered by Australian pitches (** Its just a guess but many players tweak their bats or gloves or pads to suite their need).
He might have a set weight range and would have carried all the bat in the same range and after looking the conditions there he might have felt the need of bit lighter bat.
As per my understanding most of the pro like to have different bats for different countries (* batting condition).
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: six and out on July 10, 2018, 03:38:15 PM
Walk into a reputable cricket shop, pick up as many bats as possible in as many different brands and price ranges. Whichever feels right for you and goes well off the mallet, job done. One of the best feelings is trying bats in a cricket shop so do it.

Am I over simplifying it?
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: KettonJake on July 10, 2018, 03:44:15 PM
@WalkingWicket37:
I have never seen a Pro-bat myself but I am assuming that they should be made to absolute perfection and liking of the player using it.
And can not say anything about pro using bleached bats but if they are its just because of product marketing-"The product should be pleasing to eyes".

I am no expert but I guess David Malan might be looking for a lighter bat to counter extra bounce offered by Australian pitches (** Its just a guess but many players tweak their bats or gloves or pads to suite their need).
He might have a set weight range and would have carried all the bat in the same range and after looking the conditions there he might have felt the need of bit lighter bat.
As per my understanding most of the pro like to have different bats for different countries (* batting condition).

I've seen and repaired enough pro bats to tell you the majority of them don't care about finishing, looks etc. Is the balance right for them? Does it go like stink? That is all that matters.

They treat them much worse than we do on the whole as well, because they can just get another one.
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: Mfarank on July 10, 2018, 03:51:06 PM
Walk into a reputable cricket shop, pick up as many bats as possible in as many different brands and price ranges. Whichever feels right for you and goes well off the mallet, job done. One of the best feelings is trying bats in a cricket shop so do it.

Am I over simplifying it?
The problem is when u go to said shop and start picking up bats regardless of grades or brands, u pick up a bat that feels well balanced and pings well yet has 6 grains, a few knots and 50% heartwood, and suddenly that bat turns into a super pro grade 1+++++ bat because it is "graded for performance". All too common practice nowadays.
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: six and out on July 10, 2018, 03:55:32 PM
The problem is when u go to said shop and start picking up bats regardless of grades or brands, u pick up a bat that feels well balanced and pings well yet has 6 grains, a few knots and 50% heartwood, and suddenly that bat turns into a super pro grade 1+++++ bat because it is "graded for performance". All too common practice nowadays.

But surely that is the point isn't it..... it is doing the job a cricket bat is meant to do. So what if it has been priced as a grade whatever million + , you are using it to hit the ball to the boundary. No stand there and look good.
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on July 10, 2018, 04:34:33 PM
Butterfly =g3

Not necessarily.
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: JK Lewis on July 10, 2018, 04:41:57 PM
Serious question then fellas. If you had the opportunity to select your own clefts based on your own personal criteria, from a big pile of them, would you be interested?
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: Gurujames on July 10, 2018, 04:45:39 PM
No. I would want to see how they were handled, pressed and shaped. A great looking cleft could be made into a total plank and an ugly duckling be transformed into a swan.
I’m sure many on here would love that but I see enough timber at work and the end product is of more interest to me.
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: Mfarank on July 10, 2018, 04:46:29 PM
But surely that is the point isn't it..... it is doing the job a cricket bat is meant to do. So what if it has been priced as a grade whatever million + , you are using it to hit the ball to the boundary. No stand there and look good.
Good looking bats are overpriced because theyr graded for looks, not so good looking bats are overpriced because theyr graded for performance. The simple solution is to either grade bats for looks or performance and either price them for looks or performance.
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: CricketXI on July 10, 2018, 05:46:10 PM
@JK Lewis:

I am not sure if anyone outside manufacturing business have any idea about the cleft and how it will turn out.
I have not got any bat custom made for myself but what I know/ heard that most of the people end up with the same profile readily available in the shops.
And I stated earlier balance is very subjective and depends upon a lot of factor, there is no scale for measuring it.

@Mfarank:

I second you, but to me saying grading based upon performance is all bogus, I can never digest the concept of smacking a bat 10-15 times with a mallet or a ball to determine the performance.
It is just a marketing gimmick to lure the customers towards a high margin bat.
In case there are very few bats that have exceptional performance to cost such a hefty amount of money then the bat makes should look at some other wood options to make good bats.
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: InternalTraining on July 10, 2018, 06:17:26 PM
Serious question then fellas. If you had the opportunity to select your own clefts based on your own personal criteria, from a big pile of them, would you be interested?

Based on my observation of different bat maker's process, the grading process takes places over three phases. 1. The grading of the cleft by the willow merchant. 2. The grading by the bat maker after receiving the cleft(s) and grading them again. 3. Grading the finished bat on both looks and ping/performance.

My point is that a lot happens from felling the tree, to producing clefts, and then finishing the bat.

I'd rather pick up an ugly looking bat that goes like a train and pay g3/g4 price than buying a good looking bat and pay g1/g2/pro price.
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: Mfarank on July 10, 2018, 06:24:38 PM
I'd rather pick up an ugly looking bat that goes like a train and pay g3/g4 price than buying a good looking bat and pay g1/g2/pro price.
Wholeheartedly agree to this. The problem though is that train g3/g4 suddenly gets priced up into a pro grade g1++ bat because it is "graded for performance"
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: InternalTraining on July 10, 2018, 06:42:47 PM
^ Yup, and that's why as consumers we are screwed.
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: JK Lewis on July 10, 2018, 07:23:08 PM
@JK Lewis:

I am not sure if anyone outside manufacturing business have any idea about the cleft and how it will turn out.
I have not got any bat custom made for myself but what I know/ heard that most of the people end up with the same profile readily available in the shops.
And I stated earlier balance is very subjective and depends upon a lot of factor, there is no scale for measuring it.

@Mfarank:

I second you, but to me saying grading based upon performance is all bogus, I can never digest the concept of smacking a bat 10-15 times with a mallet or a ball to determine the performance.
It is just a marketing gimmick to lure the customers towards a high margin bat.
In case there are very few bats that have exceptional performance to cost such a hefty amount of money then the bat makes should look at some other wood options to make good bats.

You're completely right @cricket11 , it is subjective. But this in itself is interesting I think. Everyone has an opinion and a personal preference. Choosing clefts is probably not for everyone, but if you were to select 2 or 3 from a stack, and had the opportunity to discuss the trees of origin, their ages and growing areas, this might be useful information, no?

Then you could contact your local batmaker, visit him to discuss your clefts, and arrange for one or more to be made up to bats of your specs. Most likely the total cost will be well below that charged by your local outlet and, if nothing else, this process will be extremely satisfying and good for your local industry.

Anyway, I just propose options and ideas. I like to see what people would be interested in, and then think about how to organise it.
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: six and out on July 10, 2018, 07:40:05 PM
Wholeheartedly agree to this. The problem though is that train g3/g4 suddenly gets priced up into a pro grade g1++ bat because it is "graded for performance"

No it doesn't... companies will always have to have bats across all grades and more importantly across all price ranges. So if that bat is marked up then so be it... it is meant to be a grade 1. It is a subjective process both on looks and performance. Which is why you get some bats that don't necessarily match their grade for looks or performance and you think you have found yourself a bargain!!
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: InternalTraining on July 10, 2018, 07:50:52 PM
Ok.

I'll celebrate if I could get a g3/g4 priced bat that goes like a train and rivals the performance of a G1/PRO grade bat. 2-10/2-11. Bow. Thin, oval handle. Pre-size-limitation bats are acceptable as well since my leagues does not enforce the size restriction. Brand new.

So, who has one? :D
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: CricketXI on July 10, 2018, 08:05:40 PM
Quote
You're completely right @cricket11 , it is subjective. But this in itself is interesting I think. Everyone has an opinion and a personal preference. Choosing clefts is probably not for everyone, but if you were to select 2 or 3 from a stack, and had the opportunity to discuss the trees of origin, their ages and growing areas, this might be useful information, no?

Then you could contact your local batmaker, visit him to discuss your clefts, and arrange for one or more to be made up to bats of your specs. Most likely the total cost will be well below that charged by your local outlet and, if nothing else, this process will be extremely satisfying and good for your local industry.

Anyway, I just propose options and ideas. I like to see what people would be interested in, and then think about how to organise it

Its an intriguing concept, and the pride and satisfaction that one will get by getting involved in every aspect of bat making will be of different level.
But saying so, there are number of challenges that one have to go through to get a bat done with such a concept.

Firstly finding a cleft supplier who agrees to let a novice to go through the entire stock for just couple of clefts (I am sure most big supplier wont let you to do so)
And there might be a case when the buyer drops the idea of picking any cleft after the visit. So i guess this will not be a viable business model in today's age and time.

Secondly finding a good bat maker who agrees to make a bat from your purchased cleft and just charge for the services is near to impossible.
As this will reduce bat makers profit margin. And the nitpicking they will do on your self picked cleft can easily let down your excitement.
 

Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: JK Lewis on July 10, 2018, 08:09:19 PM
Its an intriguing concept, and the pride and satisfaction that one will get by getting involved in every aspect of bat making will be of different level.
But saying so, there are number of challenges that one have to go through to get a bat done with such a concept.

Firstly finding a cleft supplier who agrees to let a novice to go through the entire stock for just couple of clefts (I am sure most big supplier wont let you to do so)
And there might be a case when the buyer drops the idea of picking any cleft after the visit. So i guess this will not be a viable business model in today's age and time.

Secondly finding a good bat maker who agrees to make a bat from your purchased cleft and just charge for the services is near to impossible.
As this will reduce bat makers profit margin. And the nitpicking they will do on your self picked cleft can easily let down your excitement.

Mate, I'm not asking you to school me, I'm asking if you would be interested in such an opportunity if I were to organise it.
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: blindowl on July 10, 2018, 08:44:20 PM
@JK Lewis    if I were in the market to buy a (say) £175 bat and had the choice to buy from a shop/batmaker or go the extra step of picking a cleft and having it made I would certainly think that would be an appealing prospect.
OK it might take longer and there is the gamble it might not look great or go like the clappers after all but that is always a risk.
 
It would (for me) make the process that much more personal and special, perhaps as close to making your own bat without actually making it if you follow what I mean.
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: Yorkershire on July 10, 2018, 09:20:18 PM
Are we still discussing this..? I'm sure this has been discussed to death in this forum.

Am sure consensus on here is looks don't affect performance... even spaced straight grains is what you go for...

Any specks, butterfly marks stains have no negative effect???

Latest Jedi grains aren't all even but are straight and ping is great.
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: adb club cricketer on July 11, 2018, 07:35:10 PM
Am sure consensus on here is looks don't affect performance... even spaced straight grains is what you go for...
Any specks, butterfly marks stains have no negative effect???

I am not sure if even spaced grains indicate better performance either. Have seen butterfly stain bats with anything but even/straight grains ping crazy.

In the absence of any science based evidence, maybe looks doesn't affect performance is the only conclusion we can make really.. It is more likely that most better looking bats are made/pressed better by batmakers/ senior batmakers due to the higher cost they can sell them for, which might make the higher cost bats perform better more often.
Title: Re: Grade Grains Performance
Post by: stevat on July 11, 2018, 09:25:50 PM
I am not sure if even spaced grains indicate better performance either. Have seen butterfly stain bats with anything but even/straight grains ping crazy.

In the absence of any science based evidence, maybe looks doesn't affect performance is the only conclusion we can make really.. It is more likely that most better looking bats are made/pressed better by batmakers/ senior batmakers due to the higher cost they can sell them for, which might make the higher cost bats perform better more often.

This is exactly right I reckon, you're always going to get a better level of attention to detail and care in every step on a higher grade bat as the batmaker will be well aware of the cost to themselves and missed opportunity in terms of revenue should they stuff it up.