Custom Bats Cricket Forum

General Cricket => Latest Matches => Topic started by: edge on December 09, 2018, 03:32:38 PM

Title: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on December 09, 2018, 03:32:38 PM
Squads are announced tomorrow! So, to distract from your confusion over whether to be glad Australia are getting beaten or disappointed India are winning... who would you pick?

Test squad I see staying much the same, Denly being the only man to miss out. I'd pick Jason Roy instead and announce that he's being considered to bat 3, just to make sure Bairstow is wound up nicely! No word on whether Archer has cancelled his BBL stint, will be interesting to see if he gets a mention.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on December 09, 2018, 04:34:39 PM
I'd be surprised if we didn't see more or less of the same in the Test squad - Denly, Pope and Woakes would seem to be the three guys uncertain of their places, though the lack of real competition in the batting ought to save one of them at the very least.  If he has done the necessary to make himself available, I would take Archer instead of Woakes and make sure that both he and Stone got on the field to see how they acquit themselves.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Buzz on December 09, 2018, 09:03:36 PM
Archer cannot be picked until May, there is no point in his name being mentioned.

Going to be the same squad. Pope has done will with the Lions. Denly could miss out, but I am not sure who replaces him. Maybe yet another opener
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on December 09, 2018, 09:09:47 PM
Agree don't see the point in taking Stone on a second away tour and not play him thought he should have played in SL when England were two nil up.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: LateBloomer on December 09, 2018, 09:13:15 PM
As mentioned above I would like to see Stone given a game. Don't think there's much need to change the squad. The match XI will probably include a quick at the expense of a spinner.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on December 09, 2018, 09:40:32 PM
Why not play stone, archer and Woakes as seamers ?? No point taking broad/Anderson to play a weak WI. Blood players vs weak opppps so they have experience and confidence come the ashes

Heís scored so few runs itís not possible but giving hammeed a run vs SL and WI might not have been the worst thing.?just see if he could rescue his confidence
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on December 09, 2018, 10:00:02 PM
Why not play stone, archer and Woakes as seamers ?? No point taking broad/Anderson to play a weak WI. Blood players vs weak opppps so they have experience and confidence come the ashes

Heís scored so few runs itís not possible but giving hammeed a run vs SL and WI might not have been the worst thing.?just see if he could rescue his confidence
Test cricket is hard work surely Anderson and Broad are entitled to fill their boots against a weaker side? Other countries have done so.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Alvaro on December 09, 2018, 11:28:18 PM
England havenít won a Test series in the West Indies for 3/4 trips. Look where the Ďmediocreí jibes got England last time of asking. This series ainít a foregone conclusion.

Attitude more than personnel maybe key
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Tailendfielder on December 10, 2018, 12:00:43 AM
I wonder exactly Woakes has done wrong. I think Curran is a poor mans Woakes and I see Woakes being England's premier swing bowler at the end of next summer and his missed a whole winter to develop. It's not like Anderson did much in the early part of his career outside the UK.

Foakes will constantly be under threat because Jos and Jonny can keep, he will have to 'keep' his average over 40 just to keep the media from writing him off.

I do not agree with dropping Anderson , we need to play the current best 11 in every test. Not resting our best player because our oppo are not amazing, Hence:
England havenít won a Test series in the West Indies for 3/4 trips. Look where the Ďmediocreí jibes got England last time of asking. This series ainít a foregone conclusion.

Attitude more than personnel maybe key
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Kanak on December 10, 2018, 06:12:30 AM
1. Ollie Pope/Dawid Malan/Keaton Jennings All Three Should be given a go in the top order for Pace = Maland+Pope Spin = Jennings
2. Rory Burns
3. Jonny Bairstow (WK)
4. Joe Root (C)
5. Ben Stokes
6. Jos Buttler
7. Moeen Ali
8. Sam Curran
9. Chris Woakes
10. Adil Rashid/Stuart Broad
11. Jimmy Anderson
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: LateBloomer on December 10, 2018, 06:57:08 AM
1. Ollie Pope/Dawid Malan/Keaton Jennings All Three Should be given a go in the top order for Pace = Maland+Pope Spin = Jennings
2. Rory Burns
3. Jonny Bairstow (WK)
4. Joe Root (C)
5. Ben Stokes
6. Jos Buttler
7. Moeen Ali
8. Sam Curran
9. Chris Woakes
10. Adil Rashid/Stuart Broad
11. Jimmy Anderson

No Leach/Foakes = wrong team selected
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on December 10, 2018, 07:01:03 AM
England havenít won a Test series in the West Indies for 3/4 trips. Look where the Ďmediocreí jibes got England last time of asking. This series ainít a foregone conclusion.

Attitude more than personnel maybe key
Not to mention that the last time the WI toured England they drew the series. Definitely a more difficult proposition than many give them credit for, their batting might not be all that but the seam attack is more than decent these days.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on December 10, 2018, 07:14:45 AM
I think you have to remember the only people playing any sort of meaningful cricket are the Lions in Pakistan. And there the runs have been shared around with only Joe Clarke scoring a hundred and Pope a few 50's. So no one has really stood out etc...

It will be the same squad. I think Denly will go because there has to still be a nagging doubt about Jennings against pace and there are no other openers.

As Buzz says, I don't think Archer is available for selection.

More of a question will come when it comes to picking the spinners because I don't think we will play 3.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on December 10, 2018, 07:33:52 AM
I don't think Denly was ever being considered to open though, they had him pencilled in at 3 until he struggled in the warmups. Hence a possible vacancy in the squad for Roy, who they're clearly considering. Otherwise you're right, noone's done anything to displace Pope as the spare middle order player. Selection for the first test will likely be much more interesting.

When Archer becomes available is dependent on how much time he spends in the UK - if he goes to the Big Bash for two months he won't have completed the residency in time, but if he pulls out of that (which he has mentioned as a possibility) he'll obviously qualify quicker. You'd assume someone from the ECB will have had a chat with him recently. What the rules may or may not be on England naming a currently non-qualified player in a squad, who knows.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Kanak on December 10, 2018, 08:31:21 AM
No Leach/Foakes = wrong team selected
Interesting opions, what's your 11?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on December 10, 2018, 08:47:55 AM
I wonder exactly Woakes has done wrong. I think Curran is a poor mans Woakes and I see Woakes being England's premier swing bowler at the end of next summer and his missed a whole winter to develop. It's not like Anderson did much in the early part of his career outside the UK.

Foakes will constantly be under threat because Jos and Jonny can keep, he will have to 'keep' his average over 40 just to keep the media from writing him off.

I do not agree with dropping Anderson , we need to play the current best 11 in every test. Not resting our best player because our oppo are not amazing, Hence:
At woakes age and tests played around the cricket world his game should be devoped unlike Curran he's mainly a one trick  pony  a bowling ave of around 60  runs per wicket on the sub continent maybe went against him in SL

 with  Curran establishing himself   plus stone and possibly Archer coming through he may not  even be a test regular
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: jamielsn15 on December 10, 2018, 09:01:50 AM
Interesting opions, what's your 11?

Bairstow can't and won't bat at three and keep. It's not sustainable and very likely to impact hugely on his batting, keeping or both.

Depending on the pitch, it'll go something like

1. Jennings (he may get a tough time from Roach and Gabriel)
2. Burns
3. Bairstow
4. Root
5. Stokes
6. Buttler
7. Ali
8. Foakes (wk)
9/10. (Two of) Curran/Broad/Rashid/Leach
11. Anderson

It will be about sticking with those who wom 3-0 and having the flexibility to adapt to the different pitches in the Caribbean. I don't see huge changes but do think that Roy will be given a go  by the summer
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Kanak on December 10, 2018, 09:07:31 AM
Bairstow can't and won't bat at three and keep. It's not sustainable and very likely to impact hugely on his batting, keeping or both.

I remember seeing an article on Cricinfo of Bairstow saying he's up for keeping and No. 3  :D
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on December 10, 2018, 09:14:47 AM
I remember seeing an article on Cricinfo of Bairstow saying he's up for keeping and No. 3  :D

I'm surprised he wasn't advocating to have a bowl as well! :)

Seriously, can't happen.  Spinning pitches again, as tough as Sri Lanka because of the low bounce, and Foakes hardly disgraced himself with the bat!

Jennings
Burns
Bairstow
Root
Buttler
Stokes
Foakes
Ali
Curran
Leach
Anderson
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on December 10, 2018, 09:20:57 AM
England management has already earmarked Woakes as the natural replacement for Anderson, should he retire after the Ashes.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: petehosk on December 10, 2018, 09:32:01 AM
I remember seeing an article on Cricinfo of Bairstow saying he's up for keeping and No. 3  :D

But why would you allow someone to keep who is not the best keeper?
Foakes is the best keeper we have and his batting has started pretty well too!!
Let's be real at the moment......ideally Bairstow and Buttler would bat 5 and 7 and Bairstow would keep. BUT Foakes has thrown a spanner in the works by hitting a ton and batting superbly well in Sri Lanka and showing that he is currently the best keeper England have and arguably the best keeper in cricket currently! So there is no question at all that Foakes will be given a spot in starting XI as long as his batting continues to look solid. Buttler has been brilliant batting at 5/6 and I can't see this changing for the moment. So the only way Bairstow can be show-horned in the starting XI is at 3! And whilst Foakes is in the starting XI, why give Bairstow the gloves?   
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: petehosk on December 10, 2018, 09:36:32 AM
And agree that this will likely be the starting XI

Jennings
Burns
Bairstow
Root
Buttler
Stokes
Foakes
Ali
Curran
Leach
Anderson

They will probably bat Ali at 7 again and therefore Foakes at 8....which I don't agree with! And may bat Stokes at 5 and Buttler at 6. But I suspect the above will be the starting XI.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on December 10, 2018, 09:51:48 AM
Throwing out there, but I still think a better line up with the names involved would be:

Burns
Buttler
Jennings
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Foakes
Ali
Curran
Leach
Anderson
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: alexhilly1492 on December 10, 2018, 11:12:04 AM
the batting line up will be the same

burns needs a run
jennings hit a ton in the last series
bairstow hit a ton in the game he played (and at threE)
root captain
stokes is stokes
buttler englands most consistant bat of 2018
ali all rounder
foakes cant drop him bayliss all but confimred he would play

then the bowling is where there will be changes, id imagine a seamer will come in for leach (although id rather it be for rash personally)

meaning 8 down will be:

rashid
curran
broad
anderson

i would rather see:

curran
leach
stone
anderson
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on December 10, 2018, 11:31:25 AM
the batting line up will be the same

burns needs a run
jennings hit a ton in the last series
bairstow hit a ton in the game he played (and at threE)
root captain
stokes is stokes
buttler englands most consistant bat of 2018
ali all rounder
foakes cant drop him bayliss all but confimred he would play

then the bowling is where there will be changes, id imagine a seamer will come in for leach (although id rather it be for rash personally)

meaning 8 down will be:

rashid
curran
broad
anderson

i would rather see:

curran
leach
stone
anderson

that'll be a strong side...12 strong to be precise... :)
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: alexhilly1492 on December 10, 2018, 11:42:15 AM
🙈 oops!

Just goes to show we have no idea who will play or what the selectors will do!

What time is  the squad announced?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: LateBloomer on December 10, 2018, 12:02:27 PM
Throwing out there, but I still think a better line up with the names involved would be:

Burns
Buttler
Jennings
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Foakes
Ali
Curran
Leach
Anderson

Exposing Buttler to give Bairstow an easier gig at 5? I wonder which county you are from  :D

Interesting opions, what's your 11?

I'd go, assuming the first Test is played on a pitch similar to what we've seen in Barbados recently

Jennings
Burns
Bairstow
Root
Stokes
Buttler
Ali
Foakes
Curran
Anderson
Leach

Considered a 4th quick but would have to drop a spinner to get him in


Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on December 10, 2018, 01:58:12 PM
I think there could be chance we go straight back to 1 spinner (Mo) in a couple of the games - looking at the recent games this year in St.Lucia and Antigua all the wickets were to pace and the spinners hardly bowled a ball - and Bangladesh and Sri Lanka were playing.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Rob580 on December 10, 2018, 01:58:42 PM
Realistically though, is Curran a good enough bowler to be in the XI?

Curran-tly, no. (see what I did there?)  :D

I think we (myself included) are letting his batting prowess cloud judgment of his primary skill, bowling.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: alexhilly1492 on December 10, 2018, 02:47:33 PM
Same squad as Sri Lanka except pope dropped

Denny and stone tour
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: liscon12 on December 10, 2018, 02:58:39 PM
Am I reading this correctly, Bairstow has the gloves back??
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on December 10, 2018, 02:59:31 PM
Right call this time if Roy was picked it makes it even harder to play Pope, as it is he can't get in the side so better he does not carry the drinks around.

Interesting we have stuck with Denly, it would of been easy to have him just for the Sri Lanka tour .

Wonder if England do see him playing at all on this tour, if so...where?

Spose he could bat 3 ?  :)
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on December 10, 2018, 03:00:18 PM
Am I reading this correctly, Bairstow has the gloves back??

What? Surely not?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on December 10, 2018, 03:07:10 PM
Exposing Buttler to give Bairstow an easier gig at 5? I wonder which county you are from  :D

I think it makes perfect sense. 

Assuming both of them are in the side, we know that Jonny is the better keeper (so the reserve for Foakes) and also the more likely to make test centuries.  We also know that a left right opening partnership, with one more attacking player, would be prefereable to Burns and Jennings, who are both lefties and one paced. 
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: liscon12 on December 10, 2018, 03:12:51 PM
What? Surely not?
Clearly someone made a mistake and has changed the team sheet. Before it had the wkt symbol next to Bairstow, now its next to Foakes
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: LateBloomer on December 10, 2018, 03:23:37 PM
I think it makes perfect sense. 

Assuming both of them are in the side, we know that Jonny is the better keeper (so the reserve for Foakes) and also the more likely to make test centuries.  We also know that a left right opening partnership, with one more attacking player, would be prefereable to Burns and Jennings, who are both lefties and one paced.

I would say your keeping argument whilst probably correct is pointless as Foakes will have the gloves for the foreseeable future

And if, as you say, Bairstow is more likely to make Test Centuries then he should make them from the spot that is available. You don't shuffle a team to fit in one guy because you are worried his feelings might be hurt.

But to be honest at the moment Butler IS a better Test batsman than Bairstow anyway. He has been brilliant since he came back into the team, proving very adaptable with his batting style at number 5/6, knowing when to consolidate and when to attack. Why on earth would you want to change that?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Tailendfielder on December 10, 2018, 03:35:33 PM
Realistically though, is Curran a good enough bowler to be in the XI?

Curran-tly, no. (see what I did there?)  :D

I think we (myself included) are letting his batting prowess cloud judgment of his primary skill, bowling.

This
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on December 10, 2018, 04:00:13 PM
And if, as you say, Bairstow is more likely to make Test Centuries then he should make them from the spot that is available. You don't shuffle a team to fit in one guy because you are worried his feelings might be hurt.

Nope, but you do shuffle it to get the strongest possible team.  This way you separate the two left handed openers, and move Jennings a tad further from the new ball, whilst allowing for some top order impetus. 

But to be honest at the moment Butler IS a better Test batsman than Bairstow anyway. He has been brilliant since he came back into the team, proving very adaptable with his batting style at number 5/6, knowing when to consolidate and when to attack. Why on earth would you want to change that?

Errr, no he isn't.  He has done enough to show that he is a bit more than a luxury player, but the fact is he has made one century in a futile rear guard and played some nice attacking cameos.  He can do that at the top of the order - the innings of substance are far more likely to come from Jonny. 
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Rob580 on December 10, 2018, 04:11:47 PM
the innings of substance are far more likely to come from Jonny.

And the best place to do that, is at 3.

Case closed.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ManHOOS on December 10, 2018, 04:24:52 PM
Westindies on homeground s are not easy to face.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: LateBloomer on December 10, 2018, 05:22:47 PM
Nope, but you do shuffle it to get the strongest possible team.  This way you separate the two left handed openers, and move Jennings a tad further from the new ball, whilst allowing for some top order impetus. 

Errr, no he isn't.  He has done enough to show that he is a bit more than a luxury player, but the fact is he has made one century in a futile rear guard and played some nice attacking cameos.  He can do that at the top of the order - the innings of substance are far more likely to come from Jonny.

You've downplayed Buttlers recent performances there to further your argument, which is fair enough. But I think you'll find he has the highest average in the squad since his return to the team. Against the same Indian attack that went through Bairstow like a hot curry

If Jennings isn't good enough to face the new ball he should be dropped, simple as that. He's an opening bat, score runs or go home. Or should we start the innings with a day watchman for him?

We obviously don't agree but as a whole package I value Buttler over Bairstow in this England team at the moment. Consistent runs, positive attitude, cool head and intelligence. Isn't he VC? I wouldn't be changing his role, think he is perfect for it
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on December 10, 2018, 05:56:56 PM
Hugely disappointed to read on this forum Butler 'a bit more than a luxury player'. The two series we just had I watched virtually everything and read virtually every article (sad I know!). He's played crucial roles in most of the last two series batting intelligently to steer us thou some tricky waters,as did Ben Stokes....

He's an understated individual from his interviews happy to bat anywhere for the team but shoving him up any higher would just be madness.
We can't change the whole team around just because Bairstow no longer keeps.

In an ideal world, which won't happen I know, Bairstow fits in at number 4, behind Root...but England are just going to have to keep trying the two openers and it could well be as Smith hinted...team selection is based on what tour we are on, if there's loads of spin Jennings is as good as anyone, if it's pace maybe he ain't the bloke we need at number 1..

That presents a problem of not getting match experience but perhaps that's the answer to not having outstanding players we have done in the past, where all the batting just picked itself regardless of where we were playing
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Kanak on December 10, 2018, 07:48:56 PM
Jennings
Burns
Bairstow
Root
Stokes
Buttler
Foakes
S Curran
Ali
Leach
Anderson
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on December 10, 2018, 09:47:32 PM
You've downplayed Buttlers recent performances there to further your argument, which is fair enough. But I think you'll find he has the highest average in the squad since his return to the team. Against the same Indian attack that went through Bairstow like a hot curry

Interesting viewpoint, given that in the first two tests of that series, Bairstow made 70, 28, 93 to Buttler's 0, 1, 24. Two match winning performances, before that awful finger injury....
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: LateBloomer on December 10, 2018, 11:25:11 PM
Interesting viewpoint, given that in the first two tests of that series, Bairstow made 70, 28, 93 to Buttler's 0, 1, 24. Two match winning performances, before that awful finger injury....

Bairstow averaged 25 in the series. Buttler averaged 38. Thats how averages work. You cant just pick and choose the matches your guy did well in and forget the rest. My lasting memory is stumps going everywhere

We'll see if Buttler does indeed open the batting in Barbados. My money is on him staying where he is




Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on December 11, 2018, 06:06:11 AM
Bairstow averaged 25 in the series. Buttler averaged 38. Thats how averages work. You cant just pick and choose the matches your guy did well in and forget the rest. My lasting memory is stumps going everywhere

Depends if you place sole stock on averages - most people now are moving away from "raw" averages and in to assessment of the actual value of a performance - including the England set up.  By that measure, match winning innings in the first two tests of a series rather trump a gutsy but - lets face it - ultimately facile hundred in a big defeat.  I think most people would take into account the fact that Bairstow was playing injured for the second hald of the series too...

We'll see if Buttler does indeed open the batting in Barbados. My money is on him staying where he is

Oh, mine too.  Does not mean it is the best solution to the conundrum of our surfeit of middle order players.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on December 11, 2018, 06:36:56 AM
Depends if you place sole stock on averages - most people now are moving away from "raw" averages and in to assessment of the actual value of a performance - including the England set up.  By that measure, match winning innings in the first two tests of a series rather trump a gutsy but - lets face it - ultimately facile hundred in a big defeat.  I think most people would take into account the fact that Bairstow was playing injured for the second hald of the series too...
Indeed - I believe the England analysis setup rate Buttler's recent performances extremely highly despite him not tonning up. I'm not sure they'd place as much emphasis on 'match winning' innings in which Bairstow was outscored in both knocks by his partner at the other end. You're getting more one-eyed than ever here - if it's a 'match winning innnings' when Bairstow makes 70/93 as junior partner to Root/Woakes then it can't be dismissed as a 'cameo' when Buttler top scores with 69/89 in the last two tests of the series! Doing Buttler a huge disservice to say anything other than he's been absolutely brilliant since coming back in.

As for playing injured... it's not like Bairstow had done a hamstring - he'd damaged his finger in a minor enough way that he wouldn't even have lost the gloves if Buttler wasn't playing. Not sure how that impacts on him stepping to the legside and missing straight ones?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on December 11, 2018, 08:41:22 AM
Indeed - I believe the England analysis setup rate Buttler's recent performances extremely highly despite him not tonning up. I'm not sure they'd place as much emphasis on 'match winning' innings in which Bairstow was outscored in both knocks by his partner at the other end. You're getting more one-eyed than ever here - if it's a 'match winning innnings' when Bairstow makes 70/93 as junior partner to Root/Woakes then it can't be dismissed as a 'cameo' when Buttler top scores with 69/89 in the last two tests of the series! Doing Buttler a huge disservice to say anything other than he's been absolutely brilliant since coming back in.

Haha just when I thought we were having a sensible discussion, you resort to petty insults.  Shame, though given the content of your comments, I'm not that surprised.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on December 11, 2018, 09:01:29 AM
Haha just when I thought we were having a sensible discussion, you resort to petty insults.  Shame, though given the content of your comments, I'm not that surprised.
Er... certainly not intended. Struggle to see what about that post you've taken as an insult I'm afraid.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on December 11, 2018, 09:25:28 AM
No chance England are going to move Butler - who has been absolutely key to the recent run of good results - to accommodate Bairstow who had a 2 year run of really poor form with the bat.  If Bairstow is to get a place in this England team at the moment, it will be batting in the top 3.  That is going to require him to make a big step up as he has been wretched against quality seam bowling for a prolonged period of time now, but of you are going to talk yourself up in the way Bairstow has, then you have to deliver.

I am not convinced Curran's bowling is up to the standard required to play in a 3 seamer bowling attack with Anderson and Stokes.  Unless England drop a batsman and play Ali in the top 6 or start the series with only 1 spinner  - both of which seems very unlikely to me - then Curran would have to miss out I feel
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: LateBloomer on December 11, 2018, 11:12:17 AM
I don't think there has been any insults!

I am always open to Innovative thoughts and ideas just in this case I feel you are suggesting what is good for 1 man not best for the team

As for breaking up same handed openers - Greenidge & Haynes, Langer & Hayden, Cook & Strauss. Statistically, I think, the 3 best opening partnerships of modern times. If the batsmen are good enough they will score runs.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Buzz on December 11, 2018, 12:05:25 PM
Some standard bonkersness on the forum I see 😂

Bairstow will get a run at three. He is one if the top batsmen in the country and his preferred slots are taken. He has to play so three and that is it. Buttler isn't going to open (I think 5 is ideal for him and no higher personally).

Buttler admitted Foakes is on a different level keeping wise to him (and suggested without saying) and Bairstow, plus the coach has said he is playing.

The actual conversation should be around what is the right combination of seam and spin bowling rather than batting.

Moeen and Leach seem to be Root's preferred combination, but Rashid has done well.

Sam Curran has been very successful as a batsman but his bowling has been a bit hot and cold.

Stokes was the best quick in SL.

It will be interesting to see what happens to Broad...

There aren't enough slots for everyone.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on December 11, 2018, 12:19:31 PM
That's definitely where the interest lies I think, the team management have a tricky selection problem on their hands to find the balance in different conditions. In England it will probably be a simple matter of sticking to one spinner, but in the West Indies where they might want two it's much harder to balance the bowling unit.

Leach would seem to be in pole position if it's 3 seamers/2 spinners as he's by far the best when it comes to bowling bulk overs and that will definitely be needed at some stage with Stokes as third seamer. I'd have written Rashid's chances off but he did bowl beautifully in the last SL test. If it's Anderson, Stokes and AN Other for the seamers, that's a genuinely tricky decision with the Dukes being used in the Windies.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on December 11, 2018, 01:56:59 PM

I am always open to Innovative thoughts and ideas just in this case I feel you are suggesting what is good for 1 man not best for the team

As for breaking up same handed openers - Greenidge & Haynes, Langer & Hayden, Cook & Strauss. Statistically, I think, the 3 best opening partnerships of modern times. If the batsmen are good enough they will score runs.

How very one-eyed of me. Not that I am - I'm looking for a more balanced configuration that best utilises the available talent. Yes, I confess I believe Bairstow is a much better player than Buttler - though I would be amazed if anyone were seriously arguing otherwise on that - but his happiness or otherwise is largely irrelevant.

As to the opening issues, it isn't that same sided openers does t work as much as that Burns and Jennings are so similar in their style and pace of play. I think there is a danger that they could get bogged so far down...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: stevat on December 11, 2018, 02:31:51 PM
Maybe, but that said, not many tests going the full 5 these days.  I don't mind slow scoring rates in Test cricket - in fact I think the patience required to play such an innings demonstrates good character and mental strength.  Think Buttler and Bairstow both have the ability to play up the order, but may need to learn to curb their natural assertiveness with regards to taking the cover off the ball in certain circumstances.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on December 11, 2018, 04:52:55 PM
How very one-eyed of me. Not that I am - I'm looking for a more balanced configuration that best utilises the available talent. Yes, I confess I believe Bairstow is a much better player than Buttler - though I would be amazed if anyone were seriously arguing otherwise on that - but his happiness or otherwise is largely irrelevant.

As to the opening issues, it isn't that same sided openers does t work as much as that Burns and Jennings are so similar in their style and pace of play. I think there is a danger that they could get bogged so far down...

Bogged down ?? Itís a test match not white ball. Who cares if they go slow... the longer they bat the better the hitters will do
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on December 11, 2018, 05:31:43 PM
I confess I believe Bairstow is a much better player than Buttler - though I would be amazed if anyone were seriously arguing otherwise on that

I would be amazed if many people actually agreed with that statement given that thete is little to call between them given how similar their international records are - Bairstow averages 37.7 compared to Butler's 36.8.  In fact, there is a fairly strong argument to say that Bairstow's record has been padded out by one exceptional year whereas he has failed to average above 35 in 6 of his 7 seasons as a test match cricketer.  Butler on the otherhand has averaged at least 38 in 3 of his 4 years of test cricket.

Stats aside, Bairstow clearly had a technical issue against seam bowling.  For a top order batsman to be bowled for more than a quarter of his dismissals highlights a real problem.  He remains one of England's best players of spin - as his record of scoring 3 of his 5 hundreds and averaging above 100 against Sri Lanka would demonstrate - but he has much work to do against the seamers.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on December 11, 2018, 05:40:10 PM
I would be amazed if many people actually agreed with that statement given that thete is little to call between them given how similar their international records are - Bairstow averages 37.7 compared to Butler's 36.8.  In fact, there is a fairly strong argument to say that Bairstow's record has been padded out by one exceptional year whereas he has failed to average above 35 in 6 of his 7 seasons as a test match cricketer.  Butler on the otherhand has averaged at least 38 in 3 of his 4 years of test cricket.

Stats aside, Bairstow clearly had a technical issue against seam bowling.  For a top order batsman to be bowled for more than a quarter of his dismissals highlights a real problem.  He remains one of England's best players of spin - as his record of scoring 3 of his 5 hundreds and averaging above 100 against Sri Lanka would demonstrate - but he has much work to do against the seamers.

Guys.. both average 36/37.. thatís utter (No Swearing Please) for any test match top six batsmen.. call a spade a spade and stop over thinking it. Either could bat in the current team at 3 because there is very little between them and sadly there is nothing else around.

All the talk about purple patches also applies to both and both are weak vs genuine test quality bowling
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on December 11, 2018, 05:50:03 PM
High 30s isn't much to write home about, but given the recent efforts of Vince, Stonemam, Mallan et al, it represents a move in the right direction
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: FattusCattus on January 15, 2019, 10:35:30 AM
So - I think the first warm-up game is today.

Who do we think is going to hit the ground running - who's going to bag a blob?

I fancy Root and Burns for runs, I think a re-surgence for Mo and we might see Stokesy coming into a purple patch.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: goodarmcindy on January 15, 2019, 10:38:09 AM
WI pace attack should provide a good test for the openers. Not sure it's sticking my neck too far out to suggest that one of the openers will probably be discarded after this series.

Bairstow might struggle if he stays at three against the pace too.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: goodarmcindy on January 15, 2019, 03:52:41 PM
Jennings (10) and Bairstow (4) gone in the first warm up game.

Dean Wilson of the Mirror: "[Bairstow's innings was] antsy and unconvincing"
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: FattusCattus on January 15, 2019, 04:34:37 PM
Oh well - at least Burnsy's had some time at the crease.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on January 15, 2019, 04:37:59 PM
Good to see Root getting time in the middle too after a modest time in the Big Bash
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 15, 2019, 04:46:17 PM
There is some pace about but it's not like the 1980's where four came at you all the time, if there are holes in technique thou pace does find you out-so an important test for Bairstow at 3. There's no more shuffling of the order I can see that can be done so there's a lot to play for our openers.

Jennings oddly enough strength for a top order player is playing spin which is a bit unusual.

Don't think the wickets apart from Barbados will be quick, and we are paying a test in St Lucia i think for the first time.
Recent tours it seems are geared for the travelling support, as in no tests in Guyana,Trinidad or Jamaica.
I think that's how it pans out.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on January 15, 2019, 09:53:15 PM
I would say both Jennings and Bairstow are better players of spin than seam so this will be a far stronger test than Sri Lanka.  You would feel that Burns and Baistow will be given at least until the English summer, but Jennings is the one who has to deliver now
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: shadowlight on January 15, 2019, 09:59:13 PM
Why is Baristow listed as wicket keeper on the scorecard on Cricinfo for the warm up game?  Bit harsh on Foakes if Baristow gets the gloves back and he gets dropped.

Edit: Buttler seems to be missing from the score card also  :o
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on January 15, 2019, 10:00:47 PM
Hopefully a mistake by Cricinfo
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on January 15, 2019, 10:24:31 PM
Expect England to win but could well be an interesting series. Don't expect it'll be easy though - also note we've only won one series there in the past 50 years!!

West Indies shape up ok if lacking in batting, they smashed Bangladesh in their last home series and should be putting out a stronger side than they were then by the looks of things. Gabriel and Roach are a proper international opening pair and Jason Holder averaged a hardly believable 12 in 2018. Alzarri Joseph/Oshane Thomas/Jomel Warrican for the last place presumeably - young and promising vs young and rrrrrapid vs span the Lions out last winter. Darren Bravo coming back is very handy given their top 3 lately. Brathwaite, Campbell, Bravo, Hope, Hetmyer, Chase, Dowrich, Holder, Roach, Warrican, Gabriel is a respectable XI even if unlikely to strike fear into an opposition.

Sounds like there might be a bit more in the pitches than usual which wouldn't be surprising given the strengths of the Windies side. Fancy them to give us a fright and knock us over cheaply at least once, but not put up enough runs to really threaten.
England predictions... I reckon Burns will get a few, Jennings and Bairstow not many. Root to bat really nicely but score no tons, Buttler to dig us out of a lot of holes. Bowling, who knows who we'll even pick! Hope Stone gets a game.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on January 15, 2019, 10:24:55 PM
Edit: Buttler seems to be missing from the score card also  :o
Buttler's being rested.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: stevat on January 16, 2019, 10:33:44 AM
I would say both Jennings and Bairstow are better players of spin than seam so this will be a far stronger test than Sri Lanka.  You would feel that Burns and Baistow will be given at least until the English summer, but Jennings is the one who has to deliver now
Jennings played well in Sri Lanka and Burns is new and should be given a chance, would expect to see them both in the summer regardless of their tour of the West Indies.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: stevat on January 16, 2019, 10:38:14 AM
Expect England to win but could well be an interesting series. Don't expect it'll be easy though - also note we've only won one series there in the past 50 years!!

West Indies shape up ok if lacking in batting, they smashed Bangladesh in their last home series and should be putting out a stronger side than they were then by the looks of things. Gabriel and Roach are a proper international opening pair and Jason Holder averaged a hardly believable 12 in 2018. Alzarri Joseph/Oshane Thomas/Jomel Warrican for the last place presumeably - young and promising vs young and rrrrrapid vs span the Lions out last winter. Darren Bravo coming back is very handy given their top 3 lately. Brathwaite, Campbell, Bravo, Hope, Hetmyer, Chase, Dowrich, Holder, Roach, Warrican, Gabriel is a respectable XI even if unlikely to strike fear into an opposition.

Sounds like there might be a bit more in the pitches than usual which wouldn't be surprising given the strengths of the Windies side. Fancy them to give us a fright and knock us over cheaply at least once, but not put up enough runs to really threaten.
England predictions... I reckon Burns will get a few, Jennings and Bairstow not many. Root to bat really nicely but score no tons, Buttler to dig us out of a lot of holes. Bowling, who knows who we'll even pick! Hope Stone gets a game.

I like their attack and it's good to see some genuine pace in there, especially on those pitches (assuming they get to play on at least one quick track).  Test cricket needs the West Indies - as evidenced by a tour a few years ago, to the wife 'Fancy going to see the cricket with me?' "Not a chance" 'It's in Barbados' "Be packed in 10 mins".
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 16, 2019, 10:42:35 AM
I'm just glad that ratboy Colin Graves has kept his mouth shut compared to the last test tour
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on January 16, 2019, 11:54:38 AM
Jennings played well in Sri Lanka and Burns is new and should be given a chance, would expect to see them both in the summer regardless of their tour of the West Indies.

Jennings averaged over 40 on both his overseas tours - India and Sri Lanka - and I can't see many doubting his ability against spin.  The problem is that he has a truly wretched record at home where he is facing seam bowling the majority of the time.  I think if he struggles in this series, it will be hard to justify giving him the openers slot for the Ashes
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 16, 2019, 01:05:28 PM
Jennings averaged over 40 on both his overseas tours - India and Sri Lanka - and I can't see many doubting his ability against spin.  The problem is that he has a truly wretched record at home where he is facing seam bowling the majority of the time.  I think if he struggles in this series, it will be hard to justify giving him the openers slot for the Ashes

Agree but it's the  pitch up ball  moving late  in or out that gets him out which is less likely in the windies
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on January 16, 2019, 01:15:03 PM
I think the Windies fast bowling trio Roach, Gabriel and Holder are outstanding. Bearing in mind how crap their batting is, all three have fantastic records and compliment each other. Gabriel in particular is grease lighting. Their spinners are a tad mediocre.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on January 16, 2019, 02:48:50 PM
Curran taken the new ball ahead of Broad in the warm-up game.

WI XI are already 13-4
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: richyreed on January 16, 2019, 03:05:21 PM
Is there a scorecard online?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on January 16, 2019, 03:35:55 PM
Is there a scorecard online?

Both scorecards on Cricinfo and BBC Sport are still showing yesterday.

I am just following it on Twitter through the various Cricket Journos out there watching it. Dean Wilson of the Mirror is giving regular updates.

WI Pres XI now 46-5 - Leach has his 1st wicket of the tour. Rashid not playing in this warm up.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on January 16, 2019, 03:40:57 PM
Also news just in that Olly Stone is going for a scan on a 'stiff back' and is definately out of the 2nd Warm Up game and 1st Test.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: alexhilly1492 on January 16, 2019, 04:33:25 PM
Is there a scorecard online?

i got a bbc update saying it was 43-5 leach took the 5th wicket

you'd think with all the staff out there the ECB could at least tweet the score
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Smmatle1 on January 16, 2019, 06:57:07 PM
Broad has just taken a hat-trick!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: alexhilly1492 on January 16, 2019, 07:10:39 PM
135-12

Broad takes 4 wickets in 5 balls
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 16, 2019, 07:21:03 PM
These updates are All over the shop. Broad has 2-14 according to the BBC scorecard and they are all out!

I'm sure we can fly out a forum member with a mobile phone who could do a better job  :)
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on January 16, 2019, 08:51:36 PM
These updates are All over the shop. Broad has 2-14 according to the BBC scorecard and they are all out!

I'm sure we can fly out a forum member with a mobile phone who could do a better job  :)

Not surprised they couldn't keep up. The day ended with WI President XI 204-19 ....have you ever seen anything like it! Root even picked up 3 wickets at the end.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 16, 2019, 08:59:41 PM
Banks beer or rum punch for the bowlers tonight after getting 19 wickets!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Alvaro on January 16, 2019, 09:32:31 PM
Fitting given this run out was little more than a beer game 😉

I think Leach and Mo are going to clean up in this series. Will be interesting to see Holder on his return from serious injury. I also bet there will be an F-you hundred from Bravo at some point.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Alvaro on January 16, 2019, 09:33:14 PM
And I love watching Shai Hope.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 16, 2019, 09:42:20 PM
Bravo should never of been dropped just for calling Dave Cameron an idiot, we have called him much worse over here!!

Seriously he averages 40 odd and he has missed 2 years when he should of been playing-decent bat.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: richyreed on January 16, 2019, 10:30:37 PM
Olly Stone has been ruled out of the tour and will return back to the UK for further tests on his back - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/46899562 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/46899562)
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on January 17, 2019, 08:40:02 AM
Olly Stone has been ruled out of the tour and will return back to the UK for further tests on his back - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/46899562 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/46899562)
I know Stone has injury previous, but it's not a terribly good look for the England backroom when a non-playing tourist gets a stress fracture...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: FattusCattus on January 17, 2019, 09:02:08 AM
I think Leach and Mo are going to clean up in this series.

It will be interesting today Alvin - the inference in the match report was that Leach didn't pull up many trees compared to Mo yesterday, plus he isn't playing today so a real chance for Rash to jump the queue.

Personally I'd rest Mo and let Leach and Rash have a shootout in this game.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Buzz on January 17, 2019, 09:19:37 AM
Leach is going to be the one to miss out, unless Rashid bowls like a drain.
Also worth mentioning they are using a lower grade Dukes ball than the ones used in England which stays harder and swings for longer than the usual ball.
It may be that Rashid misses out too.
The pitches are, apparently, dreadful too.

Team for the first test?
Jennings
Burns
Bairstow
Root
Stokes
Buttler
Ali
Foakes
Curran
Broad
Anderson
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on January 17, 2019, 12:26:16 PM
I would probably punt for Ali batting 8 as the sole spinner with Broad, Jimmy and Curran as the seam options along with Stokes.

Will be interesting to see how the Dukes ball performs.  My recollection of the last series England played out here was that they were unhappy about the Windies using the lower grade Dukes ball as it didn't offer as much for the bowlers 
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: FattusCattus on January 17, 2019, 04:33:23 PM
Apparently Burns has 60 and YJB 50 so far in the innings starting today. Jennings failed again.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: alexhilly1492 on January 17, 2019, 04:38:15 PM
Apparently Burns has 60 and YJB 50 so far in the innings starting today. Jennings failed again.

according to bbc sport burns 62 yjb 50

england 137-1

jennings hit 7

thats at lunch its normally updates at the intervals
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on January 17, 2019, 04:49:45 PM
Oh good, Mark Wood has been called into the squad to replace Olly Stone.

Haven't we seen enough of Wood (12 Tests, 30 wickets at 41.73) to know he isn't a Test match bowler?

His ODI record is pretty grim reading too, you could make a fairly strong argument he's been tried and found lacking at International level...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Sam on January 17, 2019, 05:04:54 PM
Oh good, Mark Wood has been called into the squad to replace Olly Stone.

Haven't we seen enough of Wood (12 Tests, 30 wickets at 41.73) to know he isn't a Test match bowler?

His ODI record is pretty grim reading too, you could make a fairly strong argument he's been tried and found lacking at International level...

In reality he's very unlikely to play and it's probably better the other potential candidates get some game time for the Lions in India.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: FattusCattus on January 17, 2019, 05:09:14 PM
Yes - and thankfully he's much less injury-prone than the man he's replacing  :(
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on January 21, 2019, 02:43:26 PM
2 days out the track looks like it could be a bit spicy...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 21, 2019, 03:35:49 PM
Does anyone have any photos of this different Dukes ball they're using? Will be interesting to see what it does...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on January 21, 2019, 03:36:31 PM
2 days out the track looks like it could be a bit spicy...
Forgot to include link, duh...
https://twitter.com/GeorgeDobell1/status/1087056072895070210?s=19
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 21, 2019, 05:55:26 PM
Forgot to include link, duh...
https://twitter.com/GeorgeDobell1/status/1087056072895070210?s=19

Looks dry and when they shave it down a bit those patches might go to leave a fairly hard surface....so more pace than the other venues, but there always is at Barbados...

Might....just might make us think of playing two spinners thou. Interesting call if we do, Leach I like better myself.

It's a close call thou with Rashid, if windies tried to be aggressive he could well get the lower order out....but we need runs on the board ourselves and to bat first
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on January 21, 2019, 08:45:52 PM
Forgot to include link, duh...
https://twitter.com/GeorgeDobell1/status/1087056072895070210?s=19

Are they playing on the beach or something!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: FattusCattus on January 22, 2019, 11:02:08 AM
Hmmmmmmmmmmm!  Selection conundrums!

Reports this morning are that the pitch may not be as quick as England first thought and there is a consideration in playing 2 spinners, meaning a choice between Curran and Broad.

I'd play 2 spinners out there I think, and back 3 seamers to do the job in the first innings.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on January 22, 2019, 11:25:05 AM
Straight choice between Curran and Rashid for me depending on how they read the surface on the morning of the game. 
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on January 22, 2019, 12:37:11 PM
it will be interesting who they go with looking at that pitch, it is great to have the options!

for me Curran has to play, the dukes ball will swing longer and probably reverse as well, so it is a straight decision between Broad and either Leach/Rashid.

i always love playing 2 spinners and would play Leach ahead of Rashid.

Jennings
Burns
Bairstow
Root
Buttler
Stokes
Foakes
Mo
Curran
Leach
Anderson
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 22, 2019, 02:35:37 PM
At the back of my mind is the question of whether they might even leave Jennings out in order to play six bowlers. 
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Buzz on January 22, 2019, 02:38:40 PM
I rather like that idea, but it won't happen.
It will be interesting to see Root's approach here.
Having Foakes with the gloves has really put a spanner in the works. If he didn't play you would have Mo or Stokes at three and Bairstow or Buttler keeping.

Also still this...
Leach is going to be the one to miss out, unless Rashid bowls like a drain.
Also worth mentioning they are using a lower grade Dukes ball than the ones used in England which stays harder and swings for longer than the usual ball.
It may be that Rashid misses out too.
The pitches are, apparently, dreadful too.

Team for the first test?
Jennings
Burns
Bairstow
Root
Stokes
Buttler
Ali
Foakes
Curran
Broad
Anderson
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 22, 2019, 03:25:43 PM
I rather like that idea, but it won't happen.
It will be interesting to see Root's approach here.
Having Foakes with the gloves has really put a spanner in the works. If he didn't play you would have Mo or Stokes at three and Bairstow or Buttler keeping.

Also still this...

Harsh on Foakes, because he obviously improves the side, even if he makes it harder to play six bowlers.  Could still be done if the will was there though - whether by using an old style makeshift opener, moving one of the keepers up there or even using Mo as a pinch hitter - I think the central point is, on that wicket, I'm not expecting a lot from Jennings so any of these options would be a potential benefit.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Buzz on January 22, 2019, 03:36:58 PM
I think the reality is that nobody thinks Jennings will do well against Roach, Gabriel and Holder... so what is the point in him playing... you could even play Rashid as an opener as he won't do worse...!



Obviously that isn't a serious suggestion, but making a point!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on January 22, 2019, 04:28:30 PM
Sorry but where has this obsession of 6 bowlers come from? 5 bowlers is generally a luxury if you have good all rounder(we do in Stokes). Pick the best 4 bowlers plus Stokes. None of this nonsense of various bits and pieces "all rounders"
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 22, 2019, 04:52:28 PM
Sorry but where has this obsession of 6 bowlers come from? 5 bowlers is generally a luxury if you have good all rounder(we do in Stokes). Pick the best 4 bowlers plus Stokes. None of this nonsense of various bits and pieces "all rounders"

Not an obsession, just a common sense way of balancing the preponderance of all rounders available, and the possible benefits of having a leg spinner in the side. 
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 22, 2019, 05:04:34 PM
Sorry but where has this obsession of 6 bowlers come from? 5 bowlers is generally a luxury if you have good all rounder(we do in Stokes). Pick the best 4 bowlers plus Stokes. None of this nonsense of various bits and pieces "all rounders"

It's been like that for a while, it makes selection easy because we can carry another bowler(normally rather than a batsman), so you see why they have gone this way. With this Barbados pitch, it looks like it will be pretty bare and hard, so they're maybe some pace,but if the game goes 5 days that lack of grass may end up turning....

Now we are playing a specialist keeper,which I think makes us a better side, they have to think a bit more about the team.

The captain will want options, Root has a lot when we play 6 bowlers, maybe too many choices.

I think, this boils down to us not getting enough runs in the past couple of years, with our all rounders being the better players selection covers itself picking a few of them.

Let's be honest wedont score enough runs at the top, our middle and lower order gets us runs.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on January 22, 2019, 05:30:28 PM
I am not sure that 5 bowlers is a luxury, I think any captain would want as many options and as much variety as possible to best make use it the changing pitch over the course of the 5 days.  England are in a strong position as Stokes, Ali and Curran contribute as much with the bat as the majority of the specialist batsmen do.  We aren't picking bits and pieces cricketers, but players who could play as batsmen even if they didn't bowl (I am including Curran in this category as there seems to be belief at his County that he will turn into a better batsman than a bowler).

It seems to me that teams generally carry fewer bowling options than historically has been the case.  I can only put this down to an.increasingly negative mind set as the game has become more professional of picking teams to avoid defeat.  If, as some people think, batting has become easier at test level, then sides naturally should be looking to carry more bowling options.

I am a big fan of Root's positive approach to the game and the current selection policy of picking batsman who put pressure on the opposition captain and bowlers who can take 20 wickets.  England's recent record in the Caribbean would be much better in my view had previous captains held this approach
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: stevat on January 22, 2019, 05:58:56 PM
I am not sure that 5 bowlers is a luxury, I think any captain would want as many options and as much variety as possible to best make use it the changing pitch over the course of the 5 days.  England are in a strong position as Stokes, Ali and Curran contribute as much with the bat as the majority of the specialist batsmen do.  We aren't picking bits and pieces cricketers, but players who could play as batsmen even if they didn't bowl (I am including Curran in this category as there seems to be belief at his County that he will turn into a better batsman than a bowler).

It seems to me that teams generally carry fewer bowling options than historically has been the case.  I can only put this down to an.increasingly negative mind set as the game has become more professional of picking teams to avoid defeat.  If, as some people think, batting has become easier at test level, then sides naturally should be looking to carry more bowling options.

I am a big fan of Root's positive approach to the game and the current selection policy of picking batsman who put pressure on the opposition captain and bowlers who can take 20 wickets.  England's recent record in the Caribbean would be much better in my view had previous captains held this approach

Pains me to say it as a batsman, but Test cricket is about taking wickets really - hard bowling a team out twice.  All the really successful teams were built around potent attacks.  Heard a few people mention that Curran looked to pick up as much as possible from a well regarded left-handed overseas they've had recently.  What a player he was to watch, and you can see some similarities.  Hopefully he looks after himself and turns out to be our answer to Kallis.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 22, 2019, 06:02:12 PM
The only thing that might hold Curran back as a batsman is that it is a bit tricky to see where he is going to get the time and opportunities to bat higher in teh order that are needed for him to fulfill his potential.  He'll be in most England squads for the next year, and best case will be batting at eight, and in his rare appearances for Surrey its tough to see how he gets in higher than seven. 
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Buzz on January 22, 2019, 06:07:05 PM
At least this isn't as made as the suggestion of dropped Buttler which is being mooted on a Facebook group I am on
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 22, 2019, 06:22:15 PM
I am not sure that 5 bowlers is a luxury, I think any captain would want as many options and as much variety as possible to best make use it the changing pitch over the course of the 5 days.  England are in a strong position as Stokes, Ali and Curran contribute as much with the bat as the majority of the specialist batsmen do.  We aren't picking bits and pieces cricketers, but players who could play as batsmen even if they didn't bowl (I am including Curran in this category as there seems to be belief at his County that he will turn into a better batsman than a bowler).

It seems to me that teams generally carry fewer bowling options than historically has been the case.  I can only put this down to an.increasingly negative mind set as the game has become more professional of picking teams to avoid defeat.  If, as some people think, batting has become easier at test level, then sides naturally should be looking to carry more bowling options.

I am a big fan of Root's positive approach to the game and the current selection policy of picking batsman who put pressure on the opposition captain and bowlers who can take 20 wickets.  England's recent record in the Caribbean would be much better in my view had previous captains held this approach

Moeen and Curran front line bats ?? Jesus Christ we over rate lower order hitters
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 22, 2019, 06:25:05 PM
Harsh on Foakes, because he obviously improves the side, even if he makes it harder to play six bowlers.  Could still be done if the will was there though - whether by using an old style makeshift opener, moving one of the keepers up there or even using Mo as a pinch hitter - I think the central point is, on that wicket, I'm not expecting a lot from Jennings so any of these options would be a potential benefit.

Pinch hitter.. in tests ... it really is moving to being two ODI innings
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: alexhilly1492 on January 22, 2019, 06:31:17 PM
Pinch hitter.. in tests ... it really is moving to being two ODI innings

How is warner any different?

He has 20 odd test 100s
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 22, 2019, 06:39:45 PM
How is warner any different?

He has 20 odd test 100s

Youíre comparing moeeen to warner !?? Ok

How many of these types actually do any good ?  Not
Many
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 22, 2019, 06:42:40 PM
How is warner any different?

He has 20 odd test 100s

He may be a horrible bloke, in fact he is...but he is an exceptionally talented ball striker. Now and again you get them at the top of the order but it's few and far between. Jayasuriya, Warner, Sehwag you could group together.

Not taking anything away from those 3 but most of their cricket is or was on batsman friendly wickets with balls with small seams.

With all the Hooha about Warner what is getting missed is he is a real talent.

For us to produce an English player who could bat like those 3, well I can't think of one who was successful at 1,2 or 3. The only name I could think of would be Wayne Larkins who our younger members won't know who he was. He did it at County level,not international.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on January 22, 2019, 09:56:24 PM
Sorry but where has this obsession of 6 bowlers come from? 5 bowlers is generally a luxury if you have good all rounder(we do in Stokes). Pick the best 4 bowlers plus Stokes. None of this nonsense of various bits and pieces "all rounders"
Pretty much fully on board with this, other than in very unusual circumstances 5 bowlers is plenty, 6 just results in one or two not bowling any overs - as in SL. All very well saying we have loads of all-rounders but we don't really, we have one and a load of bowlers who bat well.

If we really wanted to play 6 bowlers however, the openers obviously stay... So the man to miss out would logically be Bairstow, who was last in. Don't hear many calling for that!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on January 22, 2019, 10:01:59 PM
Moeen and Curran front line bats ?? Jesus Christ we over rate lower order hitters

Curran comes with the caveat I mentioned.

Ali bats at 3 in FC cricket with 20 first class hundreds and has test hundreds for England batting at 4 and 5. His record for England is rather better than a considerable number of players picked as specialist batsman despite having come in at 8 more than another position.  Not bat for a lower order hitter
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 22, 2019, 10:05:49 PM
Pretty much fully on board with this, other than in very unusual circumstances 5 bowlers is plenty, 6 just results in one or two not bowling any overs - as in SL. All very well saying we have loads of all-rounders but we don't really, we have one and a load of bowlers who bat well.

If we really wanted to play 6 bowlers however, the openers obviously stay... So the man to miss out would logically be Bairstow, who was last in. Don't hear many calling for that!

Not sure why you'd drop the guy who just made a brilliant hundred - as evidenced by Foakes keeping his place - but I recognise that you're just engaged in a spot of light trolling to pass the time. :)

But seriously, six bowlers is not as daft as it might sound.  If we were to go for Anderson, Curran, Broad, Stokes, Ali and Rashid you have three genuine all rounders plus two who can more than hold a bat.  It allows you to manage the workload of Anderson and Stokes, who are key players, and to tolerate the fact that Rashid is primarily a second innings bowler.  Your only issue would be who to drop - but given that Jennings inspires no confidence the question might really be who to use as your maek shift opener!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on January 22, 2019, 10:11:15 PM
Not sure why you'd drop the guy who just made a brilliant hundred - as evidenced by Foakes keeping his place - but I recognise that you're just engaged in a spot of light trolling to pass the time. :)
Think you've misread me there chum, possibly wilfully ;) Was rather making the point that no-one would suggest dropping Bairstow after said hundred.

Trouble with six bowlers is that one of them ends up not bowling.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on January 22, 2019, 10:14:28 PM
In a hypothetical world where Sam Curran didn't get injured for the 3rd test is Sri Lanka, I would suggest that the only change for tomorrow would be Broad coming back in with Rashid and Leech to fight for the last place.  The ability to pick 6 front line bowlers or batting down to 9 is a pretty enviable problem to have as a captain
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 22, 2019, 11:28:18 PM
Trouble with six bowlers is that one of them ends up not bowling.
If they do, it's probably because you've won handsomely.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on January 22, 2019, 11:46:53 PM
Not sure why you'd drop the guy who just made a brilliant hundred - as evidenced by Foakes keeping his place - but I recognise that you're just engaged in a spot of light trolling to pass the time. :)

But seriously, six bowlers is not as daft as it might sound.  If we were to go for Anderson, Curran, Broad, Stokes, Ali and Rashid you have three genuine all rounders plus two who can more than hold a bat.  It allows you to manage the workload of Anderson and Stokes, who are key players, and to tolerate the fact that Rashid is primarily a second innings bowler.  Your only issue would be who to drop - but given that Jennings inspires no confidence the question might really be who to use as your maek shift opener!
Sorry but the only genuine all rounder we have is Ben Stokes. Ali's getting more and more incompetent with the bat with every passing innings. As for the third all rounder Curran's primary role is the third seamer and from what I've seen so far he's no better than Woakes in foreign conditions.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on January 22, 2019, 11:52:19 PM
He may be a horrible bloke, in fact he is...but he is an exceptionally talented ball striker. Now and again you get them at the top of the order but it's few and far between. Jayasuriya, Warner, Sehwag you could group together.

Not taking anything away from those 3 but most of their cricket is or was on batsman friendly wickets with balls with small seams.

With all the Hooha about Warner what is getting missed is he is a real talent.

For us to produce an English player who could bat like those 3, well I can't think of one who was successful at 1,2 or 3. The only name I could think of would be Wayne Larkins who our younger members won't know who he was. He did it at County level,not international.
If the pitches that Warner, Jayasuriya and Sehwag thrived on where so batting friendly why didn't the even more talented players like Clarke, Sangakkara and Tendulkar(all fluent stroke makers) score at a similar rate? The simple reason is the likes of Warner, Jayasuriya and Sehwag make pitches appear flatter than they really are. They take the bowlers souls.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 23, 2019, 06:46:55 AM
Sorry but the only genuine all rounder we have is Ben Stokes. Ali's getting more and more incompetent with the bat with every passing innings. As for the third all rounder Curran's primary role is the third seamer and from what I've seen so far he's no better than Woakes in foreign conditions.

Both average over 30 in tests, which is a pretty good indicator. I'm going to stick with my original definition.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: alexhilly1492 on January 23, 2019, 07:13:57 AM
Youíre comparing moeeen to warner !?? Ok

How many of these types actually do any good ?  Not
Many

No, Iím saying itís daft to dismiss the idea of a pinch hitter.

Moeen ainít the answer, as proven by his ill fated trip to the top of the order in the uae
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on January 23, 2019, 09:28:10 AM
Both average over 30 in tests, which is a pretty good indicator. I'm going to stick with my original definition.
A true all rounder averages more with the bat than the ball, Moeen does not. Curran's been around 5 minutes so I'd take his record with a pinch of salt, heck he's yet to even register a FC century...

Stokes premier all rounder and forum favourite Woakes is the only other genuine all rounder
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 23, 2019, 09:32:54 AM
He may be a horrible bloke, in fact he is...but he is an exceptionally talented ball striker. Now and again you get them at the top of the order but it's few and far between. Jayasuriya, Warner, Sehwag you could group together.

Not taking anything away from those 3 but most of their cricket is or was on batsman friendly wickets with balls with small seams.

With all the Hooha about Warner what is getting missed is he is a real talent.

For us to produce an English player who could bat like those 3, well I can't think of one who was successful at 1,2 or 3. The only name I could think of would be Wayne Larkins who our younger members won't know who he was. He did it at County level,not international.
I can think of one who I watched  do it for England before he lost the sight of his right eye  in a road accident same county as  Wayne Larkins - Colin Milburn
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 23, 2019, 09:40:45 AM
A true all rounder averages more with the bat than the ball, Moeen does not. Curran's been around 5 minutes so I'd take his record with a pinch of salt, heck he's yet to even register a FC century...

Stokes premier all rounder and forum favourite Woakes is the only other genuine all rounder

Forum favourite woakes who does nothing outside the uK  a genuine all rounder ? I need a large whisky or two
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on January 23, 2019, 10:24:09 AM
Forum favourite woakes who does nothing outside the uK  a genuine all rounder ? I need a large whisky or two
I know you love Woakesy really  ;)
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 23, 2019, 11:18:29 AM
Spent the morning watching this on repeat. Good times. Ah.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96iZcqmcEAo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96iZcqmcEAo)
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 23, 2019, 01:19:20 PM
Pitch looks bear with sparse patches of not much grass

2 spinners? Sky tipping Broad to be left out!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Buzz on January 23, 2019, 01:19:55 PM
Broad is to miss out. Not sure who is playing instead, Rashid or Leach... Aggers thinks Leach, Dobell leaning towards Rashid
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 23, 2019, 01:33:45 PM
Forgot what it feels like for Rooty to lose a toss
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on January 23, 2019, 01:35:10 PM
Urgh, not impressed with leaving out Leach.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: liscon12 on January 23, 2019, 01:39:14 PM
Windies go with the extra seamer and England go with the extra spinner......who's is going to be right, only time will tell.

I see Rashid hardly bowling again and just being used as a bit part bowler...what a waste in my opinion. I would have rather have had the extra pace man, Ali and Root can do the spinners work.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 23, 2019, 01:53:56 PM
Like the two spin options from us, tough calls on selection, leaving Broad out was a big call I know Curran has done brilliantly when picked but it's unlucky and a tough call to leave out someone with 400 plus test wickets.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 23, 2019, 02:06:58 PM
Windies batting Jimmy has the Duke ball pitch commentators say is over dried.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on January 23, 2019, 02:12:05 PM
Gotta say pretty disappointed that Leach is left out for a luxury bits and pieces player like Rashid.

Also nice to nice Darren Bravo back in the whites, this boy could've been a modern great had it not been for his issues with the WICB
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 23, 2019, 02:12:16 PM
Sam Curran Englands new opening test bowler has  the new ball.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Kulli on January 23, 2019, 02:18:33 PM
Sam Curran Englands new opening test bowler as the new ball.
Know he's only a little lad but surely ppeople will notice if he's being used instead of a ball?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: liscon12 on January 23, 2019, 02:20:28 PM
Curran - 2 over 0-14  :S
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 23, 2019, 02:28:06 PM
You can't bowl short on that pitch Sam.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 23, 2019, 02:38:01 PM
Just love Anderson tbh
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 23, 2019, 03:21:04 PM
Lovely Mo, was inevitable Campbell was gonna try taking him on
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 23, 2019, 05:01:25 PM
Imagine bowling 11 overs and going for 6 runs. The man is a freak.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: richyreed on January 23, 2019, 05:09:46 PM
Can we clone Jimmy?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Buzz on January 23, 2019, 05:31:13 PM
Can Jimmy bowl at the stumps please.
Our bowling needs to take more of the you miss I hit approach rather than this fourth stump line.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: spoonbed on January 23, 2019, 05:40:09 PM
I do like watching Shae Hope
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 23, 2019, 05:45:12 PM
Have England dropped a clanger leaving Broad out on that track from a balanced side view  maybe  he should have played instead of one of the  3 wicketkeeper batters.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 23, 2019, 05:55:51 PM
Class from Stokes
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: t2ylo on January 23, 2019, 05:56:08 PM
Shai Hopes kit is a thing of beauty
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 23, 2019, 05:57:38 PM
Stokes gets the breakthrough
 :)
Barnacle braithwaite is no fun to watch but he did a job for the team.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: FattusCattus on January 23, 2019, 06:01:02 PM
Shai Hopes kit is a thing of beauty

Why?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: t2ylo on January 23, 2019, 06:15:28 PM
Why?

Plain. Simple. Understated. Red, black & white. One logo repeated. Helps that he aesthetically pleasing when he plays his shots too.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on January 23, 2019, 06:58:43 PM
Poor team selection. We pick one opening bowler plus two guys that are essentially fourth seamers. Hindsight is a great thing but Broad or Woakes would've been a better pick on this surface
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 23, 2019, 06:59:48 PM
Have England dropped a clanger leaving Broad out on that track from a balanced side view  maybe  he should have played instead of one of the  3 wicketkeeper batters.

Oddly, they were just discussing that on Sky, suggesting Foakes could have gone.  Whilst I do like the idea of a six man attack etc, I don't honestly see how any of the three keeper bats could be dropped. 
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: alexhilly1492 on January 23, 2019, 07:31:51 PM
Hope gone

Ct foakes b Anderson
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 23, 2019, 07:56:33 PM
Oddly, they were just discussing that on Sky, suggesting Foakes could have gone.  Whilst I do like the idea of a six man attack etc, I don't honestly see how any of the three keeper bats could be dropped. 

They were talking about the radio commentary - Gough who says unsurprisingly gloves back to Bairstow and Foakes dropped.

Once two spinners were in realistically the only spot was broad or Curran.Curran has not bowled at all well today and the question will be asked if you're playing him ahead of Broad is he good enough to open the bowling.

Selection is never easy and always creates talking points, looking at the pitch and team this morning I thought Broad would of played myself...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 23, 2019, 07:57:31 PM
Jos  drops Hetmyer followed by Hetmyer hitting Moeen for six
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 23, 2019, 08:12:52 PM
'Jimmy Anderson's last 40 Tests he is conceding an average of just 2.30 runs per over'

We don't deserve him
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 23, 2019, 08:24:34 PM
Selection is never easy and always creates talking points, looking at the pitch and team this morning I thought Broad would of played myself...

Quite. Though I would have thought one of Broad or Leach would have played. Its dangerous having two fourth steamers and two second spinners.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 23, 2019, 08:29:49 PM
Commend the WI as bad as they are for their application so far. Impressive that they are actually trying to bat long
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on January 23, 2019, 08:41:28 PM
Another start given away by the windies. No one gone on to get a big score
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 23, 2019, 08:52:25 PM
Spoke to soon. That last dismissal was utterly disgraceful for a professional
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: CricketXI on January 23, 2019, 09:10:17 PM
scoring 50ies and getting out just after on home grounds/Conditions is not acceptable at International level.
Its really hard to make such players sit out even when team management knows that these players are not going to impact the final result.
50ies should be converted to 100s at international level.

 
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on January 23, 2019, 09:35:04 PM
Talk Sport is dreadful.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on January 23, 2019, 09:44:22 PM
Had we picked an opening bowler to partner Anderson we would've cleaned up the Windies on the opening day.

Bowlers have to be selected on wicket taking ability not biffing with the bat
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: tate035 on January 23, 2019, 09:45:53 PM
Talk Sport is dreadful.

Lol... I have personally enjoyed it. Not everyone but Matt Prior and Harmy have given a good insight into what goes through a players mind at various stages of the game. All about opinions and personally glad not to hear a female voice  :D :D
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: fros23 on January 23, 2019, 09:58:42 PM
scoring 50ies and getting out just after on home grounds/Conditions is not acceptable at International level.
Its really hard to make such players sit out even when team management knows that these players are not going to impact the final result.
50ies should be converted to 100s at international level.

Only 11 players have managed more 100s than 50s in test cricket (min 2000 runs).  So practically everyone that has played test cricket hasn't done an acceptable job in your eyes then
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on January 23, 2019, 09:59:27 PM
Talk of dropping Foakes is too ridiculous for words.
 
I would have picked Broad and Leach over Curran and Rashid.  But I wasn't alarmed that they didn't.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: 19reading87 on January 23, 2019, 10:02:30 PM
Spoke to soon. That last dismissal was utterly disgraceful for a professional

Such an angry man 😂😂😂
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: LateBloomer on January 23, 2019, 10:04:50 PM
That attack looks bits and pieces on the scorecard. Being honest I would have Leach as my number 1 spinner, I think he has huge potential

Broad must only be a home player now in the eyes of the management. 433 wickets obviously dont count for anything!

All about opinions and personally glad not to hear a female voice  :D :D

How very 1950s of you! Seen but not heard.

I have enjoyed the commentary of Isa Guha recently, she knows her stuff and stands out in the Australian commentary teams head and shoulders above the rest in knowledge and delivery

Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Buzz on January 23, 2019, 10:49:32 PM
Talk Sport is dreadful.

The local commentary has Johnny Barron and Vic Marks...

https://onlineradiobox.com/bb/love/?cs=bb.love&played=1
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: LateBloomer on January 23, 2019, 11:32:20 PM
I havent seen any of the game, how did the ball behave?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on January 23, 2019, 11:57:42 PM
I guess England would have to concede that they got selection wrong picking Curran over Broad.  For me it was a straight choice between Rashid and Curran for the final place in the side and based on how dry the surface looks, I would have picked the leggie.  Luckily the excellence of Jimmy, first in drying the runs up and building pressure when the batting side were on top , and then running through then when the break through came has avoided the decision looking too costly
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: jamielsn15 on January 24, 2019, 08:10:20 AM
Driving all day yesterday, had the misfortune to be listening to talksport's coverage for the first time.

I really noticed the lack of insight. They loved telling tales of tours past (Gough), interesting at times, but not at the expense of telling the listener what's going on right now. And on three occasions when a wicket fell, they were quick to celebrate and shout without telling me who'd caught the ball, rather giving a rolling count of the number of wickets Jimmy and Broad have taken (its 1002. We had updates from 999...). i didn't know the catchers even well into the next over. It made me realise how polished and professional and just how good at their jobs the TMS crew are.

For what its worth I'd have picked Broad over Curran.  The batting depth is still deep withoit Curran and I know who I'd rather have been facing if I were the Windies top order
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: tate035 on January 24, 2019, 09:10:46 AM


How very 1950s of you! Seen but not heard.

I have enjoyed the commentary of Isa Guha recently, she knows her stuff and stands out in the Australian commentary teams head and shoulders above the rest in knowledge and delivery

Really? Not sure who the Australian commentators where but Ricky Ponting and Greg Blewitt have been very insightful. Having not listened to every match over the last 6 months it would be unfair of me to comment on everyone but I will agree that Ebony appears to be more insightful than other female commentators that I have heard, however IMO 😝 I would rather listen to people like Botham, Lloydd, Hussein, Holding, Ponting, Prior etc All players who have played at the highest level and not a female who hasnít played the game at a good standard. I would still have that opinion even if they asked the 2nd team captain from Lancashire to give commentary on test matches.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 24, 2019, 09:24:45 AM
Talk of dropping Foakes is too ridiculous for words.
 
I would have picked Broad and Leach over Curran and Rashid.  But I wasn't alarmed that they didn't.

It isn't really although Foakes is the best gloveman in this Englad team your a batsman first To retain his place he has to keep scoring runs  or become a top six batter.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 24, 2019, 09:28:37 AM
I havent seen any of the game, how did the ball behave?
Pretty much up and down no big swing or movement of the pitch.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: alexhilly1492 on January 24, 2019, 09:30:21 AM
It isn't really although Foakes is the best gloveman in this Englad team your a batsman first To retain his place he has to keep scoring runs  or become a top six batter.

he was one of England best batsman in Sri Lanka, he's done nothing but excelled since he came into the side,

(yes this is an exaggeration) dropping foakes now would be akin to dropping cook after the 2010/11 ashes, its beyond ridiculous to talk of dropping our best gloveman and one of the better batters in the side!

sod the balance of the side you pick on merit, we need to forget this 3 keepers b****cks and treat buttler and bairstow as batsmen, are there better batsmen as them on county cricket at the moment in that position (or at all), no.

i think we have picked the correct side (from the squad given) except one change (broad for rashid)

and we may not agree with the side we picked but its about time we all quit moaning and supported the lads! sometimes its like we dont actually want england to do well! jeeze!

Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on January 24, 2019, 09:35:20 AM
Really? Not sure who the Australian commentators where but Ricky Ponting and Greg Blewitt have been very insightful. Having not listened to every match over the last 6 months it would be unfair of me to comment on everyone but I will agree that Ebony appears to be more insightful than other female commentators that I have heard, however IMO 😝 I would rather listen to people like Botham, Lloydd, Hussein, Holding, Ponting, Prior etc All players who have played at the highest level and not a female who hasnít played the game at a good standard. I would still have that opinion even if they asked the 2nd team captain from Lancashire to give commentary on test matches.
I'd rather have people who are good commentators, does it matter what level they've played? Prior was a really good cricketer but that doesn't stop him being intensely dull...
Talksport was a nice change from TMS at the start of the SL series but after the novelty wore off it's a bit boring - both could learn from each other.

Thank goodness for Stokes and Jimmy, not sure the balance of our attack is quite right here. West Indies must be kicking themselves a little, if one bloke had gone on to a ton it would have been a great day for them.

I know this England setup likes blurring roles a bit, but to describe a bloke batting 8 as 'a batsman first' is a bit much even for them...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: goodarmcindy on January 24, 2019, 09:36:45 AM
scoring 50ies and getting out just after on home grounds/Conditions is not acceptable at International level.
Its really hard to make such players sit out even when team management knows that these players are not going to impact the final result.
50ies should be converted to 100s at international level.

I agree. Joe Root really has to be dropped...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: mo_town on January 24, 2019, 09:58:33 AM
England were lucky to get those wickets with the second new ball. It wasnt looking good for them till then. This definitely is not the best bowling line up.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: jonny77 on January 24, 2019, 10:13:52 AM
England were lucky to get those wickets with the second new ball. It wasnt looking good for them till then. This definitely is not the best bowling line up.

How do you feel they were lucky? Was it not due to good bowling? Mainly a good spell from Jimmy from what I've seen, so not sure how much luck was involved.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: mo_town on January 24, 2019, 11:03:25 AM
How do you feel they were lucky? Was it not due to good bowling? Mainly a good spell from Jimmy from what I've seen, so not sure how much luck was involved.

I would put those down to poor batting. Also, clearly you got your bowling options wrong when the captain has to bowl himself for a few overs. Leach would have been a better option in place of Rashid. Also, given the long batting lineup, Broad should have been preferred instead of Curran. Curran has played a few good innings but I dont feel his bowling is good enough for him to be picked solely as a bowler in the test team.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: jonny77 on January 24, 2019, 12:35:24 PM
I would put those down to poor batting. Also, clearly you got your bowling options wrong when the captain has to bowl himself for a few overs. Leach would have been a better option in place of Rashid. Also, given the long batting lineup, Broad should have been preferred instead of Curran. Curran has played a few good innings but I dont feel his bowling is good enough for him to be picked solely as a bowler in the test team.

Wasn't arguing with the selection. Think I'd have played Broad instead of Rashid tbh as I don't think we really need two spinners (I like Rashid tho).  Although still can't agree with your other point, bad batting or not that doesn't mean England were 'lucky. Wasn't like it we bagged wickets due to low bounce, bad umpiring decisions, deflected run outs etc, which would be down to luck. Still gotta put the ball in the right areas consistently.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 24, 2019, 01:02:15 PM
Wasn't arguing with the selection. Think I'd have played Broad instead of Rashid tbh as I don't think we really need two spinners (I like Rashid tho).  Although still can't agree with your other point, bad batting or not that doesn't mean England were 'lucky. Wasn't like it we bagged wickets due to low bounce, bad umpiring decisions, deflected run outs etc, which would be down to luck. Still gotta put the ball in the right areas consistently.

That's it - I'm off long term sick so I've watched all our bowling yesterday and Anderson is just a different class. The accuracy is his first spell gave them no loose balls to hit unlike Curran so there's no luck I could see. Stokes bowled well too and Rashid was good despite there not being much turn(yet)- it may turn later on for him.

With Anderson we have the best bowler in living memory, he is the best of his type going as far back as I can remember.

Second new ball did a bit and he was right there to make the most of it.

Not even thinking about when he hangs up his boots what will happen. We pretty much have the best bowlers in England picked and he is a class above the rest we have
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: mohawks94 on January 24, 2019, 01:13:54 PM
Really? Not sure who the Australian commentators where but Ricky Ponting and Greg Blewitt have been very insightful. Having not listened to every match over the last 6 months it would be unfair of me to comment on everyone but I will agree that Ebony appears to be more insightful than other female commentators that I have heard, however IMO 😝 I would rather listen to people like Botham, Lloydd, Hussein, Holding, Ponting, Prior etc All players who have played at the highest level and not a female who hasnít played the game at a good standard. I would still have that opinion even if they asked the 2nd team captain from Lancashire to give commentary on test matches.

Isa and Ebony have both played for England. I suspect that both have played a damn sight better level than most of us on here. Having worked with both a bit as a runner, they are both insightful, humble and genuinely passionate about cricket. I'd rather listen to them than someone who drones on about how good they were or someone like a James Brayshaw in Aus.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: FattusCattus on January 24, 2019, 01:44:28 PM
"9.35am Some interesting news fresh off the press from George Dobell. Stuart Broad is not at the ground today - rumour has it he is very disappointed at his omission for this Test and has been given the day off too."

Seriously?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: velvetsky01 on January 24, 2019, 01:51:23 PM
might be catching up on his sleep...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: goodarmcindy on January 24, 2019, 02:11:07 PM
"9.35am Some interesting news fresh off the press from George Dobell. Stuart Broad is not at the ground today - rumour has it he is very disappointed at his omission for this Test and has been given the day off too."

Seriously?

Terrible if true. Bad enough when people sulk at club level, let alone international. Probably not going to ingratiate himself with the management as the 'company line' has wholly been about the strength of the squad and how important the depth of squad will be in such a busy international year.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 24, 2019, 02:36:47 PM
"9.35am Some interesting news fresh off the press from George Dobell. Stuart Broad is not at the ground today - rumour has it he is very disappointed at his omission for this Test and has been given the day off too."

Seriously?

Mind you watched all of yesterday's play and didn't see Woakes and today it looks the only sub around is Mark wood.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 24, 2019, 02:45:15 PM
Mind you watched all of yesterday's play and didn't see Woakes and today it looks the only sub around is Mark wood.

Woakes was there supporting I saw him in the telly yesterday  :)

As for Broad, he should be playing having understandably sat out spin friendly wickets in SL.

presuming he has not chucked all the toys out being upset at being left out maybe a good sign . I much prefer to see passion and guys wanting to play.

There's a fine line as always thou...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 24, 2019, 02:50:08 PM
he was one of England best batsman in Sri Lanka, he's done nothing but excelled since he came into the side,

(yes this is an exaggeration) dropping foakes now would be akin to dropping cook after the 2010/11 ashes, its beyond ridiculous to talk of dropping our best gloveman and one of the better batters in the side!

sod the balance of the side you pick on merit, we need to forget this 3 keepers b****cks and treat buttler and bairstow as batsmen, are there better batsmen as them on county cricket at the moment in that position (or at all), no.

i think we have picked the correct side (from the squad given) except one change (broad for rashid)

and we may not agree with the side we picked but its about time we all quit moaning and supported the lads! sometimes its like we dont actually want england to do well! jeeze!

I think cricketers do support there national team there's no point watching if you didn't also you need a balanced side and this  England first test side  has shown on the pitch without the extra seamer it  isn't. Can't see England leaving out V/C Buttler or number 3 bat/wicketkeeper Bairstow.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on January 24, 2019, 02:52:29 PM
Might be broad having bed bugs in his jock strap. Or preferred a beach day - do you blame him.

Hetmyer is one talented player, love watching him bat - hope he gets his 100
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 24, 2019, 02:55:19 PM
Another 5 wicket haul for Jimmy
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: FattusCattus on January 24, 2019, 03:07:42 PM
Hetty, 'im give it some licks!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: alexhilly1492 on January 24, 2019, 03:54:19 PM
Jennings gone to seam... caught in the gully driving

Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 24, 2019, 04:00:14 PM
Drop him. Please
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: brokenbat on January 24, 2019, 04:23:18 PM
Very poor from Broad - imagine the furor if this had been KP?? Interestingly, the hotel is now considering suing over the bedbug story..
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: alexhilly1492 on January 24, 2019, 04:24:18 PM
can see Denly debuting before this tour is out!

just seen on the BBC sport text feed Jennings outside Asia is averaging 17 with a high score of 48 from 11 test!

17 in 22 innings is disgraceful for an international opener!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 24, 2019, 04:55:51 PM
can see Denly debuting before this tour is out!

just seen on the BBC sport text feed Jennings outside Asia is averaging 17 with a high score of 48 from 11 test!

17 in 22 innings is disgraceful for an international opener!

Unusual but jennings  clear strength is against spin, his weight is all wrong for seam bowling that prob won't change in the short term.

Denly is the only one who come in I don't think he should be considered too old at 32/33. He bats top 3 but unproven so far at this level.

England have invested a lot of time in Jennings....they will want to keep him in...I think
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on January 24, 2019, 05:06:34 PM
Unusual but jennings  clear strength is against spin, his weight is all wrong for seam bowling that prob won't change in the short term.

Denly is the only one who come in I don't think he should be considered too old at 32/33. He bats top 3 but unproven so far at this level.

England have invested a lot of time in Jennings....they will want to keep him in...I think

Too old? Chris Rogers and Adam Voges prove that idea is nonsense...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Kulli on January 24, 2019, 05:12:07 PM
Good job we picked Curran over Broad here...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 24, 2019, 05:20:06 PM
Too old? Chris Rogers and Adam Voges prove that idea is nonsense...

Absolutely right. England tend to do things differently thou. A simple example just ask yourself is Jennings a better player than:

Stoneman
Adam Lyth
Carberry.

If the answer to that is no then it's head scratching time to ask why all the above had half the chances of the current opener.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 24, 2019, 05:22:18 PM
Good job we picked Curran over Broad here...

WIndes bowlers are showing what height  pace and extra bounce on this track can do
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Kulli on January 24, 2019, 05:24:47 PM
WIndes bowlers are showing what height and extra bounce on this track can do
Aye, all 170 of Kemar Roach.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on January 24, 2019, 05:27:12 PM
WIndes bowlers are showing what height and extra bounce on this track can do that England's top order can't keep out straight ones.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on January 24, 2019, 05:27:52 PM
What was that moeen!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: liscon12 on January 24, 2019, 05:29:06 PM
This is ridiculous

I wonder if broad could have gotten the ball to talk like that if he was selected.........
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: alexhilly1492 on January 24, 2019, 05:29:19 PM
Moeen Ali get in the bin!

That is embarrassing
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Kulli on January 24, 2019, 05:30:39 PM
This is ridiculous

I wonder if broad could have gotten the ball to talk like that if he was selected.........
Your never as good as when your not picked. I was surprised they left Broad out, but itís done now.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on January 24, 2019, 05:31:20 PM
Our resident Yorkshireman more so less told me Moeen is a 'genuine all rounder'...I seriously beg to differ
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: smilley792 on January 24, 2019, 05:37:18 PM
Kemar Roach with a five for.


Hes 3 cm shorter than Sam Curran, but yeah letís concentrate on broads height being the issue......




Bored turns up once a year, should have been dropped a while ago. He isnít the issue with our top order.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: alexhilly1492 on January 24, 2019, 05:38:09 PM
Wow
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 24, 2019, 05:39:42 PM
Our top order cannot protect the engine room of the middle order.

Didn't think this would happen but pace finds you out

Roach has turned the heat up and bowled real well
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on January 24, 2019, 05:42:51 PM
Kemar Roach with a five for.


Hes 3 cm shorter than Sam Curran, but yeah letís concentrate on broads height being the issue......




Bored turns up once a year, should have been dropped a while ago. He isnít the issue with our top order.
Difference is roach isn't bowling 78mph
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: brokenbat on January 24, 2019, 05:42:59 PM
Vintage Eng vs WI
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on January 24, 2019, 05:52:30 PM
So the commentators go to their usual excuse - lack of warm up matches! Happens so often with English commentators

No international side gets as much pre tour prep as England. Itís not an excuse - no other side uses it
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on January 24, 2019, 06:04:02 PM
Can't put this down to lack of prep.  Good toss to win on a deck deteriorating by the third session on day 1, but England have made a big selection blunder and also dropped the Windies top scorer when he had 3 and have a top 3 who can't play pace and expose the middle order to the new ball.

Given how quickly the game has progressed, there is the real.likelihood that England's 2 spinners won't get to bowl in day 4/5 conditions they were selected for
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on January 24, 2019, 06:23:17 PM
Rootís been lucky to win 8 tosses in a row, the real test would come once he started losing a few like this test
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: alexhilly1492 on January 24, 2019, 06:27:13 PM
At least it wasnít 51.......
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SOULMAN1012 on January 24, 2019, 06:31:30 PM
Havenít seen a ball of this as I donít have Sky but looks embarrassing, when are the selectors going to realise that Jennings isnt good enough for International cricket, Rory Burns doesnít look much better either.
James Vince, or Joe Denley need to be brought in in my opinion

Bowling wise I donít disagree totally with the Curran over Broad selection as Iím all for blooding the next and his start to Test cricket has been superb. Roll on Archer being available.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SOULMAN1012 on January 24, 2019, 06:32:48 PM
At least it wasnít 51.......

Could be over by lunch tomorrow if they make us follow on although thatís not the done thing these days
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 24, 2019, 06:37:36 PM
Exceptional test cricket so far from WI. Batted with purpose and application and have followed it up with genuine pace and aggression.

Iíd rather England batted this way and bowled this way but still. Really good to see. Proper test cricket.

Englsnd.. well.. totally exposed with ball and with bat. These batsmen both arenít good enough or are all rounders who shouldnít be exposed to this or theyíll get cleaned up.  Ali... guys nothing but a 8+ so when peoooe talk of Ďpinch hittingí.. Jesus.. laughable

Anyway, genuinely enjoyed these two days more than any test Iíve seen for a long while. First time a team has actually applied themselves and bowled with pace and aggression
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 24, 2019, 06:39:12 PM
Kemar Roach with a five for.


Hes 3 cm shorter than Sam Curran, but yeah letís concentrate on broads height being the issue......




Bored turns up once a year, should have been dropped a while ago. He isnít the issue with our top order.

Chris has a point. Height isnít he issue.. the fact curran is another bits and pieces player who bowls plod is the issue
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 24, 2019, 06:40:21 PM
Pace like fire

Sorts people right out .. our guys showing they arenít upto it.. medium plod hitters

Love watching raw pace
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 24, 2019, 06:42:25 PM
Moeen Ali get in the bin!

That is embarrassing
Yet again Moeen gets out to a short ball
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on January 24, 2019, 06:50:41 PM
People saying that selection was the issue Curran over Broad, it is it not worth considering that they both should have played and Rashid should have been left out.

The Windies obviously had local knowledge and went with 4 quicks.

That being said you can talk about selection till the cows come home but if you have 2 out of your top 3 who can't play quick bowling you are always struggling.

Jennings technique isn't great and Bairstow bowled by the ball coming back through him again!

There's only so many times the middle/lower order get you out of jail. Sooner or later it's a car crash.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 24, 2019, 06:53:55 PM
Yes spot on. We have been bailed out umpteen times by the middle order.

This was coming for a while. Extra pace usually finds you out as a batsman, and they bowled superb
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 24, 2019, 06:56:55 PM
Havenít seen a ball of this as I donít have Sky but looks embarrassing, when are the selectors going to realise that Jennings isnt good enough for International cricket, Rory Burns doesnít look much better either.
James Vince, or Joe Denley need to be brought in in my opinion

Bowling wise I donít disagree totally with the Curran over Broad selection as Iím all for blooding the next and his start to Test cricket has been superb. Roll on Archer being available.

Yep  with that stance /setup of Burns there not a lot in defence behind the ball not ideal for an opening bat against extra bounce and pace.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 24, 2019, 07:32:57 PM
Havenít seen a ball of this as I donít have Sky but looks embarrassing, when are the selectors going to realise that Jennings isnt good enough for International cricket, Rory Burns doesnít look much better either.

To be fair to Jennings - he was the top scorer!!!!  And to be fair to Burns, he was one of three who have some mitigation (he played on, Bairstow had one bounce back off his elbow and Buttler got a ball that could have killed him)
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 24, 2019, 07:33:23 PM
And the other side of that, yes, Jennings looked all at sea!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Sam on January 24, 2019, 07:40:14 PM
So the commentators go to their usual excuse - lack of warm up matches! Happens so often with English commentators

No international side gets as much pre tour prep as England. Itís not an excuse - no other side uses it

I think it's a pretty legitimate concern. We played two non-FC 2-day games.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on January 24, 2019, 08:01:32 PM
I think it's a pretty legitimate concern. We played two non-FC 2-day games.
WICB offered us a proper 4 day first class match which we rejected as confirmed by atherton
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on January 24, 2019, 08:27:31 PM
Yep  with that stance /setup of Burns there not a lot in defence behind the ball not ideal for an opening bat against extra bounce and pace.

I told you this was coming, before he'd even played.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on January 24, 2019, 08:30:52 PM
100 ball tournament, anyone?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on January 24, 2019, 09:10:53 PM
We really need to unearth the Pujara style 'over my dead body' style player to prevent these horrific collapses...better still try and get Pujara on loan for the rest of the series...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: GoldenArm on January 24, 2019, 09:14:46 PM
Anyone else loving the look of Hetmyers SS pads and gloves? Iíve looked all over and not found them. Can the hive mind of CB find them??? Also the spikes heís got on. What are they?? Puma??
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: alexhilly1492 on January 24, 2019, 09:20:52 PM
We really need to unearth the Pujara style 'over my dead body' style player to prevent these horrific collapses...better still try and get Pujara on loan for the rest of the series...

We had one, he broke his finger and got told to expand his game and had now been dropped from the lancs side
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on January 24, 2019, 10:07:58 PM
We had one, he broke his finger and got told to expand his game and had now been dropped from the lancs side
Rather ironically Hameed's bloodline originates just a few miles from Pujara's. Similar in more ways than one...

Unfortunately don't see Hameed returning anytime soon. He's averaging 18 in his last 52 fc innings  :(
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 24, 2019, 10:30:47 PM
We had one, he broke his finger and got told to expand his game and had now been dropped from the lancs side

This


He got told he had to be more positive.. expand his game.. completely broke him
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 24, 2019, 10:41:14 PM
We really need to unearth the Pujara style 'over my dead body' style player to prevent these horrific collapses...better still try and get Pujara on loan for the rest of the series...

You see, I think we dropped one. Someone earlier mentioned openers like Lyth and Stoneman who have never got another go. Lyth, no - I think he'd do okay at five or six but we have bucket loads of those -   but Stoneman managed to get to 50 a decent number of times. A couple of technical tweaks and he'd have done a job.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on January 24, 2019, 10:56:55 PM
Thought the West Indies made a mistake not enforcing the follow on.
This pitch could become die out and lose all pace - allowing England to chase a score down. Best conditions to bowl were today
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 24, 2019, 11:24:13 PM
Thought the West Indies made a mistake not enforcing the follow on.
This pitch could become die out and lose all pace - allowing England to chase a score down. Best conditions to bowl were today

Nah. Englsnd have a old war horse and a injury prone bowler... put them back in and grind them into the dirt.. break them .. WI have collapsed so itís not worked but if they made Anderson bowl another 25-30 overs and stokes.. one would break..

This is why test series can be interesting.. you can try to win a game but also play a longer tactical battle in ,emtally and physically grind a team down.. if they broke stokes.. or Anderson.. wtf would England have left
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 25, 2019, 12:20:27 AM
Nah. Once they got 325 up having lost limited poles Jimmy and Sturkes would have disappeared from the attack.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: shadowlight on January 25, 2019, 02:30:21 AM
Pathetic from England.  Not 100% sure why the hell do you need 3 all rounders in the team.  I also think England team has entitlement problems.  If you get dropped make a stink about (Baristow and now it seems to be Broad) and promptly get selected or get special dispensation.  England went into the game with one genuine bowler in Anderson and everyone else is 2nd/3rd string bowler, with no chance of keeping a lid on scoring.

I do not know enough about Woakes but if Broad, Curran, Stone are ahead of him why the heck (use your imagination in select stronger 4 letter words) is England management not releasing him so he can go play somewhere else (Aus, NZ or SA) and get match practice, instead of carrying drinks.

England mgmt sure ruined Hameed's career.  The guy was one of the most exciting player coming through with proper game plan for test match, now he cannot even convince his county team  :( for a game.  It might be worth it for him to leave Lanc and maybe move to another county but which county.  Personally, I think he might benefit by going to Durham and go work with Collingwood, who made a career by playing within his means.

Is Collingwood part of the coaching team in WI?  If yes, can England draft him into the playing 11.  My money would be on him playing a lot better than majority of the current players.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: LateBloomer on January 25, 2019, 05:27:33 AM
Pathetic from England.  Not 100% sure why the hell do you need 3 all rounders in the team.  I also think England team has entitlement problems.  If you get dropped make a stink about (Baristow and now it seems to be Broad) and promptly get selected or get special dispensation.  England went into the game with one genuine bowler in Anderson and everyone else is 2nd/3rd string bowler, with no chance of keeping a lid on scoring.

I do not know enough about Woakes but if Broad, Curran, Stone are ahead of him why the heck (use your imagination in select stronger 4 letter words) is England management not releasing him so he can go play somewhere else (Aus, NZ or SA) and get match practice, instead of carrying drinks.

England mgmt sure ruined Hameed's career.  The guy was one of the most exciting player coming through with proper game plan for test match, now he cannot even convince his county team  :( for a game.  It might be worth it for him to leave Lanc and maybe move to another county but which county.  Personally, I think he might benefit by going to Durham and go work with Collingwood, who made a career by playing within his means.

Is Collingwood part of the coaching team in WI?  If yes, can England draft him into the playing 11.  My money would be on him playing a lot better than majority of the current players.

I agree with everything you say except Broad making a stink. By all accounts his attitude was very good in Sri Lanka and I havent seen any negative comments from him here either

Although after this shambles a man with 400+ wickets and a hat trick in his last game probably has every right to ask a question or two.

His selection wouldn't mask Englands inept batting but at the same time lets not let Englands inept batting hide the fact that the selection of the bowlers was wrong

9 times out of 10 its best to look at the make up of the home bowling attack and copy them. We did it well in Sri Lanka, not sure why we got to West Indies and thought we knew conditions better than the locals
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Kulli on January 25, 2019, 08:06:45 AM
Doesn't Hameed need to take a fair chunk of the blame for his total collapse. I struggle to believe that just on the nbasis of being told to make his game more expensive that he's reached the stage he can't even get it off the square at county 2nd team level.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 25, 2019, 09:22:06 AM
Pathetic from England.  Not 100% sure why the hell do you need 3 all rounders in the team.  I also think England team has entitlement problems.  If you get dropped make a stink about (Baristow and now it seems to be Broad) and promptly get selected or get special dispensation.  England went into the game with one genuine bowler in Anderson and everyone else is 2nd/3rd string bowler, with no chance of keeping a lid on scoring.

I do not know enough about Woakes but if Broad, Curran, Stone are ahead of him why the heck (use your imagination in select stronger 4 letter words) is England management not releasing him so he can go play somewhere else (Aus, NZ or SA) and get match practice, instead of carrying drinks.

England mgmt sure ruined Hameed's career.  The guy was one of the most exciting player coming through with proper game plan for test match, now he cannot even convince his county team  :( for a game.  It might be worth it for him to leave Lanc and maybe move to another county but which county.  Personally, I think he might benefit by going to Durham and go work with Collingwood, who made a career by playing within his means.

Is Collingwood part of the coaching team in WI?  If yes, can England draft him into the playing 11.  My money would be on him playing a lot better than majority of the current players.

Collingwood is currently Englands fielding coach but is being tipped to be offered  a role alongside Ashley Giles.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 25, 2019, 09:45:39 AM
I agree with everything you say except Broad making a stink. By all accounts his attitude was very good in Sri Lanka and I havent seen any negative comments from him here either

Although after this shambles a man with 400+ wickets and a hat trick in his last game probably has every right to ask a question or two.

His selection wouldn't mask Englands inept batting but at the same time lets not let Englands inept batting hide the fact that the selection of the bowlers was wrong

9 times out of 10 its best to look at the make up of the home bowling attack and copy them. We did it well in Sri Lanka, not sure why we got to West Indies and thought we knew conditions better than the locals

The more this game goes on and with Anderson having bowled 34 overs alreadythe more it shows  that England got there team selection wrong Broad should have played and with his current form  he could have been really effective it's not hindsight  you have to get the team right before the first ball is bowled with  England playing the extra batter it was never a balanced side.
It's also possible in the post match interviews England will admit they got the team selection wrong

Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: alexhilly1492 on January 25, 2019, 09:50:44 AM
Doesn't Hameed need to take a fair chunk of the blame for his total collapse. I struggle to believe that just on the nbasis of being told to make his game more expensive that he's reached the stage he can't even get it off the square at county 2nd team level.

I think he does... however everything. Iíve heard is that he works hard at his game

Isnít his dad his coach? This may be the change thatís needed more than anything
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: mo_town on January 25, 2019, 10:15:23 AM
I think he does... however everything. Iíve heard is that he works hard at his game

Isnít his dad his coach? This may be the change thatís needed more than anything

What he needs is to spend a summer in the Che Pujara school of cricket.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 25, 2019, 10:31:22 AM
Hameed needs time, patience and perhaps a change of environment judging by Lancs comments they are getting frustrated with him. I think also as mentioned your dad coaching you can only go so far. He has something about him to make a test player but if you look back English players take longer to develop as batsmen, only a few has been the real deal early-like cook and bell at 21/22.

But hameed is no where near playing at the highest level yet and it's not his fault we we out for 77.

Mostly problems start with the openers, get that right and you are halfway there, Burns needs a run, Jennings weakness is pace, unusual for an opener.

But what to do? Denly in with virtually no match practice? That's a big ask...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: stevat on January 25, 2019, 11:13:45 AM
Hameed needs time, patience and perhaps a change of environment judging by Lancs comments they are getting frustrated with him. I think also as mentioned your dad coaching you can only go so far. He has something about him to make a test player but if you look back English players take longer to develop as batsmen, only a few has been the real deal early-like cook and bell at 21/22.

But hameed is no where near playing at the highest level yet and it's not his fault we we out for 77.

Mostly problems start with the openers, get that right and you are halfway there, Burns needs a run, Jennings weakness is pace, unusual for an opener.

But what to do? Denly in with virtually no match practice? That's a big ask...

Jennings is a decent bat, the difference with him pace vs spin is that against spin he has the happy knack of being able to poke the ball around with soft hands and pick up singles here and there to get himself off strike and keep the score ticking over.  Against pace, nudges and knicks can go to hand so he's more reticent, which is a good thing.  Problem is that approach doesn't keep the score moving, and you can see him build the pressure internally until he starts playing some forced strokes, and eventually going after the ball too much.  If he can find a way to rotate strike against the new ball he'd be a fantastic opener.  Still only 26 yo as well remember.

Do agree that Hameed was fantastic to watch, and really hope he gets back to what he was.  Enjoyed watching Lees make the beginnings of a comeback at Durham towards the end of last season also.  There's a bunch of them in the circuit that struggled with their first dip in form, just shows how important the psychological side of the game is at that level.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 25, 2019, 11:34:35 AM
Ah, emotional investment in sport.

Looking forward to crashing out later for 90 odd
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on January 25, 2019, 01:34:45 PM
You know everyone always jumps all over England and never ever gives credit where it's due!

I don't think i have seen 1 post (apologies if i missed it) about actually how well the Windies quicks bowled, they were brilliant, genuine pace, mixed with proper line and length and just enough movement etc... and then went for the throat when we were down.

Yes of course we should probably have picked Broad

Yes of course we should have batted better

But if you look at it for a second Hetymer was dropped on 3 (i think it was), take 78 runs off the WI score and it's barely 200 - maybe a lot less than that considering the partnership with Chase. Completely different game walking out to bat then.

All i am saying is can we just for once give some credit to the oppo etc...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on January 25, 2019, 02:39:25 PM
Stokes being bowled into the ground by root. Bowled 15 out of the 44 already. Curran and the spinners just not effective.

Lead passes 360 - Windies would be hoping for another 60-80 runs to be safe
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: liscon12 on January 25, 2019, 02:50:26 PM
Pitch goes flat, rain and then a draw. That's my prediction

But with the pace WI have I can't see England winning at all
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: CricketXI on January 25, 2019, 02:54:36 PM
I think WI are not looking to declare, they would like to score as much as possible and give 1.5 days or possibly 2 days to their bowlers to win this for them.

Now All depends upon J.Root to playout those last 2 days.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 25, 2019, 02:54:51 PM
You know everyone always jumps all over England and never ever gives credit where it's due!

I don't think i have seen 1 post (apologies if i missed it) about actually how well the Windies quicks bowled, they were brilliant, genuine pace, mixed with proper line and length and just enough movement etc... and then went for the throat when we were down.

Yes of course we should probably have picked Broad

Yes of course we should have batted better

But if you look at it for a second Hetymer was dropped on 3 (i think it was), take 78 runs off the WI score and it's barely 200 - maybe a lot less than that considering the partnership with Chase. Completely different game walking out to bat then.

All i am saying is can we just for once give some credit to the oppo etc...

I said WI bowled well thanks. Iím sure others will have too BUt we all care about England so they will attract the comments. Yes WI did well but letís not pretend this side jut had a bad day..
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 25, 2019, 02:55:32 PM
I think WI are not looking to declare, they would like to score as much as possible and give 1.5 days or possibly 2 days to their bowlers to win this for them.

Now All depends upon J.Root to playout those last 2 days.

WI should bat into day 4 and aim to completely destroy stokes and Anderson. England lose either to injury or tiredness and englsnd are in dire straights
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: liscon12 on January 25, 2019, 03:06:31 PM
400 run lead now up, try and get 550 WI
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on January 25, 2019, 03:14:54 PM
Curran's bowling is borderline pathetic. He's continually bowling long hops at barely military medium pace. is he not watching what Anderson is doing?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on January 25, 2019, 03:17:04 PM
Fifty for captain Holder, improving all the time
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: mo_town on January 25, 2019, 03:18:17 PM
You know everyone always jumps all over England and never ever gives credit where it's due!

I don't think i have seen 1 post (apologies if i missed it) about actually how well the Windies quicks bowled, they were brilliant, genuine pace, mixed with proper line and length and just enough movement etc... and then went for the throat when we were down.

Yes of course we should probably have picked Broad

Yes of course we should have batted better

But if you look at it for a second Hetymer was dropped on 3 (i think it was), take 78 runs off the WI score and it's barely 200 - maybe a lot less than that considering the partnership with Chase. Completely different game walking out to bat then.

All i am saying is can we just for once give some credit to the oppo etc...

The no.3 Test nation getting battered by the no.9 ranked team...I think that deserves getting jumped all over.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 25, 2019, 03:20:07 PM
Windies 196 for 6 already and in  control looks like a theres rain break soon
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: mo_town on January 25, 2019, 03:20:38 PM
Fifty for captain Holder, improving all the time

Holder deserves that spot in the Test team of the year XI. He has been the lone shining light for the Windies with bat and ball.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on January 25, 2019, 03:25:15 PM
Holder deserves that spot in the Test team of the year XI. He has been the lone shining light for the Windies with bat and ball.

They put his stats with the ball yesterday 35 wickets at 15s!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 25, 2019, 03:43:01 PM
A reminder that the selection panel thought two spinners was going to be a good idea
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on January 25, 2019, 03:43:42 PM
Curran's bowling is borderline pathetic. He's continually bowling long hops at barely military medium pace. is he not watching what Anderson is doing?

We've all been watching what Jimmy Anderson does for years. Doesn't mean we can get anywhere close to being able to do it.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on January 25, 2019, 03:44:16 PM
Holder going into overdrive
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 25, 2019, 03:45:35 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/58wY8L5.jpg)
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on January 25, 2019, 03:46:08 PM
CBF great / pathetic loop.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on January 25, 2019, 03:53:11 PM
Shows how poor Sri Lanka really were allowing these two spinners to take wickets

holder's scored more himself than the entire England side - pitch does look like it's become dead then again at times Windies made it look flat on the first day too

Stokes being bowled into the ground again by root, suppose he's got no other option
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: mo_town on January 25, 2019, 04:21:04 PM
Shows how poor Sri Lanka really were allowing these two spinners to take wickets

holder's scored more himself than the entire England side - pitch does look like it's become dead then again at times Windies made it look flat on the first day too

Stokes being bowled into the ground again by root, suppose he's got no other option

Are you seriously comparing the pitches in SL and WI? The England spinners were brilliant in conditions that suited them. This is poor team selection. Picking two spinners on a pitch like this.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 25, 2019, 04:30:19 PM
Root could bowl 10-15 overs himself rather than risk Stokes who has done a lot of bowling, there's still 2 matches to go and they come quick. It seems we got no options because we cannot put any scoreboard pressure on, it's just damage limitation now, unless it rains monsoon style we are losing this game heavily.

I wonder now if the thinking will be to get another bowler in by changing the keeper, that's the worry if we want two spinners for the next test.

Just on the spinners, Leach is a more line and length defensive bowler than the other two, England talk a lot about new style attacking batting and not just defending but there is a role for that type of batsman and bowler over 5 days.

Just listening to Stewart on Sky saying the role of 1,2,3 is to blunt the new ball, it's an old fashioned phrase and something India did very well beating the Aussies with Pujara the main one doing that role
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on January 25, 2019, 04:53:18 PM
Holder brings up his century with a monstrous six of the hapless Rashid. The Barbados local enjoying himself
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 25, 2019, 05:15:01 PM
Dowrich who has an avg of what ??? 66* off 144 balls.. thatís good test match batting.l sadly all England players would be wanting 120 off 144 .. there lays the problem

Good tactics here too from WI.. no rush and grind stokes and Anderson into the dirt
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 25, 2019, 05:19:30 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/58wY8L5.jpg)

Problem is though Rashid was picked to bowl on day 5 not day 3.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 25, 2019, 05:27:43 PM
Root could bowl 10-15 overs himself rather than risk Stokes who has done a lot of bowling, there's still 2 matches to go and they come quick. It seems we got no options because we cannot put any scoreboard pressure on, it's just damage limitation now, unless it rains monsoon style we are losing this game heavily.

I wonder now if the thinking will be to get another bowler in by changing the keeper, that's the worry if we want two spinners for the next test.

Just on the spinners, Leach is a more line and length defensive bowler than the other two, England talk a lot about new style attacking batting and not just defending but there is a role for that type of batsman and bowler over 5 days.

Just listening to Stewart on Sky saying the role of 1,2,3 is to blunt the new ball, it's an old fashioned phrase and something India did very well beating the Aussies with Pujara the main one doing that role

Itís not old fashioned.. itís test cricket.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on January 25, 2019, 06:03:09 PM
Problem is though Rashid was picked to bowl on day 5 not day 3.

Root had more control with his leggies
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SOULMAN1012 on January 25, 2019, 06:07:43 PM
Well letís hope the 2nd innings for us we really stand up and really value all 10 wickets, no chance of England winning but a very slim chance of batting for 2days with maybe the help of the weather.

Although odds on we lose this test still fancy us to win 2-1, this England side isnít a bad side and itís typical English way we crow when we win and are all experts when we lose, same in all sports we play.
I guess the one change will be the most difficult in that it looks like in these conditions Foaks will be dropped with YJB back with the gloves and Broad for Rashid you would imagine.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 25, 2019, 06:13:46 PM
Well letís hope the 2nd innings for us we really stand up and really value all 10 wickets, no chance of England winning but a very slim chance of batting for 2days with maybe the help of the weather.

Although odds on we lose this test still fancy us to win 2-1, this England side isnít a bad side and itís typical English way we crow when we win and are all experts when we lose, same in all sports we play.
I guess the one change will be the most difficult in that it looks like in these conditions Foaks will be dropped with YJB back with the gloves and Broad for Rashid you would imagine.

6 full sessions at least left in the game.. wicket still flat.. plenty of time to get close.. the game isnít lost but it would take a really special batting performance..  WI dontnreally have a spinner remember so after a while, their fast bowlers will tire.. if only englsnd could bat long and see off two or theee sessions before even thinking about positive brand of cricket ..

This side is a bad side and always has been. Itís been covered up and people seem to not want to admit we have a bunch of 5/6/7ís and barely and genuine bowling .. for some reason people seem reluctant to accept we just havenít got any good test cricketers.. avg 30ís is crap.. utter crap.. stop hiding behind potential as barring Curran, they are not young

The game isnít lost yet.. England can lose it quickly though if they bat like normal or with this positive brand of cricket they bull crap up

The bare minimum I expect on this flat track is a draw (subject to the wicket drastically changing)
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on January 25, 2019, 06:57:30 PM
This is nothing new though, some stats for you....

The 1st Test of our last 4 Away series....

WI this test - all out 77
Sri Lanka - we were 100-5 before Foakes bailed us out with a debut 100.
NZ - we were 58 all out!
The Ashes - we all know what happened after Vince got run out and that awful 2nd innings.

We just don't start well at all for whatever reason.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 25, 2019, 06:59:28 PM
This is nothing new though, some stats for you....

The 1st Test of our last 4 Away series....

WI this test - all out 77
Sri Lanka - we were 100-5 before Foakes bailed us out with a debut 100.
NZ - we were 58 all out!
The Ashes - we all know what happened after Vince got run out and that awful 2nd innings.

We just don't start well at all for whatever reason.

Happens most innings.. bailed out by lower order players coming off. Top six should be scoring the bulk of your runs, if they arenít then youíre picking the wrong players and/or county cricket isnít producing the right quality
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Ams4287 on January 25, 2019, 07:14:36 PM
When does Jofra Archer qualify again!? :D

Whilst there's so much to point figures at we've got to get geniune pace into the side when not in England - shame stones injured and I don't see wood ever being a hit at test match level as his body doesn't seem able to take the riggers of 15-18 overs a day
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: brokenbat on January 25, 2019, 07:19:32 PM
Love how everyone is calling this a ďflatĒ pitch now.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: brokenbat on January 25, 2019, 07:23:22 PM
Very happy for Jason Holder. Genuinely nice guy - been leading a poor Team with dignity and poise , and now the universe is rewarding him with a bit of joy.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 25, 2019, 07:48:39 PM
Well played Holder superb knock now for a horrible hour from behind the sofa
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on January 25, 2019, 07:57:41 PM
Tbh after the comments Boycott made saying are average is it any surprise three local lads(Holder, Dowrich and Roach) have made him eat his own words. I don't understand why we need to insult the opposition when we've won once in their backyard in 50 odd years. It beggars belief   
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 25, 2019, 07:59:03 PM
Now,letís see this top six.. can they bat 4 sessions and show some bottle or will they try and hit their way out of it
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 25, 2019, 09:19:26 PM
I mean, they've started off well
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on January 25, 2019, 09:24:48 PM
No wickets all day! After 18 yesterday.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 25, 2019, 09:51:01 PM
Good start.. bit of application shown

My £5 on the win at 40-1 is looking good so far... Iím backing the win as I think this wicket is flat and a test top six should be able to win from here
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: NT50 on January 25, 2019, 09:52:06 PM
Tbh after the comments Boycott made saying are average is it any surprise three local lads(Holder, Dowrich and Roach) have made him eat his own words. I don't understand why we need to insult the opposition when we've won once in their backyard in 50 odd years. It beggars belief

That's because Boycott is an awful bloke and an even worse commentator  :D
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on January 25, 2019, 10:04:33 PM
Tbh after the comments Boycott made saying are average is it any surprise three local lads(Holder, Dowrich and Roach) have made him eat his own words. I don't understand why we need to insult the opposition when we've won once in their backyard in 50 odd years. It beggars belief

A bit like Vaughan, loves a headline.

Good start from England anyway. The pitch as expected has died, England have a chance to get some runs.

West Indies should prepare 2 flat pitches for the remaining two games and take a 1-0 series win
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 25, 2019, 10:18:44 PM
Yep good effort after an exhausting day, we just need to battle a bit which might help for the next game.

As for boycott, he is losing his influence in the press and I'm not sure he is of any relevance at all to anyone under 30.

Personally there's loads of commentators and ex players to listen to before him.

Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: billyb on January 26, 2019, 01:07:56 AM
It's nearly an impossibility that we will win, but it would be great to see players get themselves into form and score runs. We know that a big series from Root and Bairstow can be decisive.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Number4 on January 26, 2019, 10:22:29 AM
I hope a better team shows up for the Ashes 😜
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on January 26, 2019, 10:51:09 AM
I have been thinking about our selection for this test and more specifically the question...

What actually made us select 2 spinners? And alongside that Rashid over Leach?

Rashid only bowled 27 overs across both innings and Root bowled more overs than him in the WI 2nd innings.

I mean was it just purely Root backing himself to win the toss and therefore bat 1st and have use of the pitch bowling last with 2 spinners?

Or did they genuinely misread the pitch etc...

Curran was always going to play because he extends our batting so it must have been a call between Rashid and Broad.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 26, 2019, 11:01:17 AM
We have mis read the pitch because it was tacky and heavily watered before the game I'm sure. Broad should of played because Curran is not an opening bowler anywhere in the world, good prospect but not a front line bowler. To compound that the wicket appears to be two faced and yes they are quicker than us and we are knackered but 18 wickets one day no wickets the next how often do you see that?

For me if we play two spinners Leach has to be the other because he can hold an end, Root bowling Stokes and Anderson into the ground is criminal.....he can't turn to Rashid for 25 overs in a day because he is too loose.

There's a big question thou over Rashid, does he play again after this match? Can Root trust him?

Love to see what the forum thinks.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on January 26, 2019, 11:10:38 AM
It's quite clear the management wants to keep Rashid in the Test fold as he's a key component in the bid to finally land that elusive world cup. Keep him around and keep him motivated. That said Rashid is a dreadful red ball bowler. Even on square turners in Sri Lanka he was a passenger, until he got a 5fer in the dead rubber. The Rashid experiment has run its course, he's not a Test bowler and never will be.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 26, 2019, 11:10:48 AM
The question isn't can Root trust him, it is really DOES Root trust him. And I think the answer is clear that Root sees him as a luxury bowler. I said on day one, I can individually understand the selections of Curran, Ali and Dilly, but not all three of them--they needed one more front liner, be that a proper opening bowler or a first spinner.  Misreading the pitch is one thing, leaving your artillery short of shells quite another.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on January 26, 2019, 11:51:15 AM
We have mis read the pitch because it was tacky and heavily watered before the game I'm sure. Broad should of played because Curran is not an opening bowler anywhere in the world, good prospect but not a front line bowler. To compound that the wicket appears to be two faced and yes they are quicker than us and we are knackered but 18 wickets one day no wickets the next how often do you see that?

For me if we play two spinners Leach has to be the other because he can hold an end, Root bowling Stokes and Anderson into the ground is criminal.....he can't turn to Rashid for 25 overs in a day because he is too loose.

There's a big question thou over Rashid, does he play again after this match? Can Root trust him?

Love to see what the forum thinks.

It seems to me that the selectors see a leg spinner as a key component of being able to turn around England's dismal away record in tests, and rightly so in my view.  It is difficult to say whether England got selection wrong in picking two spinners as we won't get the chance to bowl on a day 4 or 5 surface due to an awful 1st innings batting performance, but given the way the surface has dried out by the end of day 3, I don't think they got that aspect of selection wrong.  Given the options in the squad, it is only Broad coming in for Curran that I feel would have made a difference to the bowling.

As an aside, I never understood why Plunkett was disregarded for test selection, he is England's best bowler for bang it in to the surface conditions.  He won't be as effective at home in pitch it up conditions, but he provides something you need for certain parts of the world
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 26, 2019, 12:02:46 PM
We have mis read the pitch because it was tacky and heavily watered before the game I'm sure. Broad should of played because Curran is not an opening bowler anywhere in the world, good prospect but not a front line bowler. To compound that the wicket appears to be two faced and yes they are quicker than us and we are knackered but 18 wickets one day no wickets the next how often do you see that?

For me if we play two spinners Leach has to be the other because he can hold an end, Root bowling Stokes and Anderson into the ground is criminal.....he can't turn to Rashid for 25 overs in a day because he is too loose.

There's a big question thou over Rashid, does he play again after this match? Can Root trust him?

Love to see what the forum thinks.

If England don't stick with Rashid we might hear of his retirement from test cricket...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 26, 2019, 12:16:55 PM
It seems to me that the selectors see a leg spinner as a key component of being able to turn around England's dismal away record in tests, and rightly so in my view.  It is difficult to say whether England got selection wrong in picking two spinners as we won't get the chance to bowl on a day 4 or 5 surface due to an awful 1st innings batting performance, but given the way the surface has dried out by the end of day 3, I don't think they got that aspect of selection wrong.  Given the options in the squad, it is only Broad coming in for Curran that I feel would have made a difference to the bowling.

As an aside, I never understood why Plunkett was disregarded for test selection, he is England's best bowler for bang it in to the surface conditions.  He won't be as effective at home in pitch it up conditions, but he provides something you need for certain parts of the world

Even though the groundsman was asked to prepare the fastest track possible
Don't think the selection of 2 spinners was was wrong it rarely is in a 5 day test  after all when selecting a tests side over 5 days it's need  to be balanced  therefore Broad should have played instead of a batsman and as you have you mention it's hardly the spinners fault they can't bowl on days 4 5.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 26, 2019, 12:33:27 PM
If England don't stick with Rashid we might hear of his retirement from test cricket...

Or that he doesnt feel supported and is off to play for Ireland
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 26, 2019, 12:35:17 PM
It seems to me that the selectors see a leg spinner as a key component of being able to turn around England's dismal away record in tests, and rightly so in my view.  It is difficult to say whether England got selection wrong in picking two spinners as we won't get the chance to bowl on a day 4 or 5 surface due to an awful 1st innings batting performance, but given the way the surface has dried out by the end of day 3, I don't think they got that aspect of selection wrong.  Given the options in the squad, it is only Broad coming in for Curran that I feel would have made a difference to the bowling.

As an aside, I never understood why Plunkett was disregarded for test selection, he is England's best bowler for bang it in to the surface conditions.  He won't be as effective at home in pitch it up conditions, but he provides something you need for certain parts of the world

Two first class games in two years? Pulled up in both of them? That Liam Plunkett?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on January 26, 2019, 01:45:18 PM
I wish people would start seeing the bigger picture.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 26, 2019, 01:53:17 PM
Good frames don't save bad pictures
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on January 26, 2019, 01:57:34 PM
If England don't stick with Rashid we might hear of his retirement from test cricket...

Great! Can we drop him before the end of this game?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on January 26, 2019, 02:15:21 PM
Hate to say it but the ball is talking a bit this morning
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 26, 2019, 02:32:55 PM
This is our longest opening partnership in 24 tests. Jesus, that's awful.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 26, 2019, 02:34:57 PM
Time to make a name for themselves

Atherton and Russell
Prior
Anderson and Monty
Brigadier block himself (collingwood)
Cook monster innings
Faf
Ponting in the ashes on 166 nearly saving a game
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 26, 2019, 02:43:26 PM
If nothing else, Burns is looking the part.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Kulli on January 26, 2019, 02:46:01 PM
If we bat the full two days with no delays weíll win this.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: golders on January 26, 2019, 02:47:00 PM
Adios Jennings
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on January 26, 2019, 02:47:26 PM
Is Jennings really the best we have?
Reminds me of James Vince with his driving...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 26, 2019, 02:47:51 PM
Someone defend Keaton Jennings. Please. Go on.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 26, 2019, 02:51:36 PM
Someone defend Keaton Jennings. Please. Go on.

He always remembers to call his mother?

When I'm coaching, he makes a great example of what not to do?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 26, 2019, 02:55:27 PM
Someone defend Keaton Jennings. Please. Go on.

He showed application today, for that.. fair play fella itís wxacrly what you should be doing every single bloody test match.

However, thatís another Nick off to his very well known technical fault to pace.. sadly, itís time to sack him off a he has had long enough to fix it and hasnít.

Trouble is.. there literally is no one else !!

Still. Keep fighting, face 150+ balls burns and Bairstow .. at least out edfort in
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on January 26, 2019, 02:57:22 PM
Someone defend Keaton Jennings. Please. Go on.

 :( :( :( ...... I would put money on him playing the whole series though  :o :o :o
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on January 26, 2019, 02:58:48 PM
Someone defend Keaton Jennings. Please. Go on.
To a certain extent, I rate him. So classy vs spin, clearly got a bit about him, just needs a breakthrough innings I think - he can't be totally hopeless against seamers given he scores a lot of county championship runs. Worth persevering with for as long as is feasible.

Plus... alternatives? Go back to someone we've tried before - Jennings has done better than most of them anyway. Pick a new opener from the counties - I'd say the only realistic option would be Chris Dent, who would be a massive punt. Everyone else is too old or too inexperienced. Or try and manufacture an opener from the best available batting candidates - could work, but you're guessing. That said, I'll give you good odds on Jason Roy walking out on the first day of a test match by the end of the year...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: NT50 on January 26, 2019, 03:16:51 PM
Don't see how Roy could be any worse than Jennings!

Though, it would be rather decent if Hameed could pretend the last 2 years didn't happen and started scoring runs again  :(
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 26, 2019, 03:18:14 PM
You can't bat against pace with minimal foot movement unless you are exceptional, and I mean KP or Trescothick. There's a lot of similarities in style as in Jennings and Tresco play away from the body and are upright left handers in style.
But a gulf in class like the Grand Canyon.

So for most mortals you need feet it's really the key as some of us were taught early on.

Before the technique 'experts' comment 'no it's about head movement' yes if you have hand eye co-ordination like only the best in the world, for the rest the feet have to help the head get into position.

Jennings is not behind the ball or going towards the ball with much at all.He has come a long way with this fault, it's the same one as when he was first picked and then dropped.

I would make a change now and get Denly in, he is a top 3 bat and picked on the tour because he is deemed good enough to be there.

With no matches in Sri Lanka or warms ups here it's a tough ask, a very tough ask, but Jennings needs to go away and fix his faults.At 26 he can still improve but he needs work.


Waiting for other ideas from behind the keyboards but please but please not Bairstow any higher, he is excellent but has his hands full this high up
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on January 26, 2019, 03:24:48 PM
Good frames don't save bad pictures

What?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 26, 2019, 03:27:16 PM
To a certain extent, I rate him. So classy vs spin, clearly got a bit about him, just needs a breakthrough innings I think - he can't be totally hopeless against seamers given he scores a lot of county championship runs. Worth persevering with for as long as is feasible.

Plus... alternatives? Go back to someone we've tried before - Jennings has done better than most of them anyway. Pick a new opener from the counties - I'd say the only realistic option would be Chris Dent, who would be a massive punt. Everyone else is too old or too inexperienced. Or try and manufacture an opener from the best available batting candidates - could work, but you're guessing. That said, I'll give you good odds on Jason Roy walking out on the first day of a test match by the end of the year...

Warne spoke about Jennings and those who simply sweep everything vs spin.. he was scathing and basically said itís one dimensional and easy to remove but comes off every so often. Jennings can literally only sweep.  Thatís not classy really.. the way buttler played spin that one game ca India or Michael clarke did is clsssy.. use of feet, fully forward and fully back etc

Jennings is nit good enough and scores runs at county lvl due to it being relatively dire in standard . The fact Roy has been mentioned below somewhere as a test top six bat highlights the lack of quality around

Hammeed is the only answer but the ECB have ruined him so like Finn., he is literally unselectable
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on January 26, 2019, 03:31:42 PM
The best way to get good at something is to do it a lot. English professional cricketers do not play enough proper cricket.

I'm sick to death of these arguments that we are simply picking the wrong people.

Anyway, just a few months ago, you were all saying what a great team we had.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 26, 2019, 03:34:56 PM
The best way to get good at something is to do it a lot. English professional cricketers do not play enough proper cricket.

I'm sick to death of these arguments that we are simply picking the wrong people.

Anyway, just a few months ago, you were all saying what a great team we had.

Not all, but the majority were saying how great this side was.. anyone not calling them great was dismissed as being negative though.

As you say, the system is broken and there isnít enough Ďproperí cricket from grass roots to county champ to produce the players required . Meaning we have lots of bits and pieces players (curran, moeen, Stokes (who is a 7 not 5), Bairstow (again 6 not 3) etc etc
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 26, 2019, 03:36:23 PM
Right.l Bairstow needs to remember itís not a one day game.. stop trying to manufacture runs and just wait for the bad balls.. burns.. getting lucky as he seems to be trying to be more aggressive.. ffs.. bat all day.. runs will come so dont rush
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on January 26, 2019, 03:59:19 PM
Oh Rory, what have you done? :(
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 26, 2019, 04:01:29 PM
Big gap that Rory
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 26, 2019, 04:10:46 PM
Good effort lad. Worrying how many wide balls he plays at though...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 26, 2019, 04:11:46 PM
You can't bat against pace with minimal foot movement unless you are exceptional, and I mean KP or Trescothick. There's a lot of similarities in style as in Jennings and Tresco play away from the body and are upright left handers in style.
But a gulf in class like the Grand Canyon.

So for most mortals you need feet it's really the key as some of us were taught early on.

Before the technique 'experts' comment 'no it's about head movement' yes if you have hand eye co-ordination like only the best in the world, for the rest the feet have to help the head get into position.

Jennings is not behind the ball or going towards the ball with much at all.He has come a long way with this fault, it's the same one as when he was first picked and then dropped.

I would make a change now and get Denly in, he is a top 3 bat and picked on the tour because he is deemed good enough to be there.

With no matches in Sri Lanka or warms ups here it's a tough ask, a very tough ask, but Jennings needs to go away and fix his faults.At 26 he can still improve but he needs work.


Waiting for other ideas from behind the keyboards but please but please not Bairstow any higher, he is excellent but has his hands full this high up

You have to get behind the ball specially the new ball  and not play away from your body  head still eyes still the head leads first not feet as it puts everything in line
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 26, 2019, 04:13:07 PM
You have to get behind the ball specially the new ball  and not play away from your body  head still eyes still the head leads first not feet as it puts everything in line

Burns is playing  A LOT away from his body.. that is a very big worry
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 26, 2019, 04:22:51 PM
Burns is playing  A LOT away from his body.. that is a very big worry

And that's why he got out
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 26, 2019, 04:34:18 PM
And that's why he got out

Yes.. hence the worry for the future
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 26, 2019, 04:41:58 PM
Wow.. lucky lucky

Done up like a kipper root..
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 26, 2019, 04:44:48 PM
And it's not out
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 26, 2019, 04:45:08 PM
Didnít play that well either.. is our only test batsmen also a walking wicket to anything short.. uh oh
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 26, 2019, 04:48:24 PM
Watch those  bottom hand fingers Joe
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 26, 2019, 04:51:26 PM
Bairstow.. come on lad.. itís not a friggin ODI.. stop trying to pound every ball.. it looks flashy but you wonít last the time we need you to bat for
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 26, 2019, 04:55:39 PM
Poor. Way too aggressive Bairstow. Not what was needed.

Too aggressive, too much bat on ball and nit enough head down and grind. Simply not good enough and this positive brand of cricket crap has to go. Learn to friggin bat long
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 26, 2019, 04:58:46 PM
Yep at that level you shouldn't get strangled down the leg side
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 26, 2019, 05:07:22 PM
Given nudging to leg is instinctive, Im not sure what you think you're waffling about.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 26, 2019, 05:08:25 PM
Given nudging to leg is instinctive, Im not sure what you think you're waffling about.

Sure.. sometimes you have to fight instinct .. thatís kinda part of the game..

I forget, heís Bairstow.. living legend. Yorkie.. not his fault
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 26, 2019, 05:17:15 PM
Fastest bowler off injured potentially., if only englsnd had dug in..
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 26, 2019, 05:20:36 PM
Sure.. sometimes you have to fight instinct .. thatís kinda part of the game..

I forget, heís Bairstow.. living legend. Yorkie.. not his fault

Wouldn't matter who it was. With point 3 of a second, I doubt you'd find anyone able to "resist" as evidenced by far better players -  Ponting, Tendulkar, Lara - being occasional but repeated victims.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 26, 2019, 05:22:18 PM
Given nudging to leg is instinctive, Im not sure what you think you're waffling about.

Yes and we have all done it but test players really shouldn't  especially in this match and England's situation he  could have let it go through to the keeper.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 26, 2019, 05:23:53 PM
Yes and we have all done it but test players really shouldn't

It happens but given Bairstows mentality, given the fact he was going at all the balls and given the match situation it wasnít worth the risk.

Anyway, stokes showing even less desire to bat long.. wafting at everything.

This is pathetic
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 26, 2019, 05:34:17 PM
Someone going to defend stokes here ??? I mean, this is a shambles from him..

Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 26, 2019, 05:42:25 PM
Certainly not going to defend Root's shot...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 26, 2019, 05:43:15 PM
Certainly not going to defend Root's shot...

 I genuinely donít get the thinking. Why even bother trying to force a scoring shot.. pat it back and wait for the next. Runs are literlaly meaningless ..

They all seem incapable of not simply trying to score off every ball. Looks great when it comes off sure but itís test cricket.. look g st their avgís (root aside) they are dire ..30ís
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: NT50 on January 26, 2019, 05:51:43 PM
Yes we get it: we're poor with the bat in test matches, there's been some stupid shots, nobody has got the mentality anymore, things ain't what they used to be etc etc...

You don't need to remind us of it every 30 seconds, you are allowed to step away from the keyboard.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 26, 2019, 06:43:15 PM
Moeen is braindead, right?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 26, 2019, 06:52:06 PM
Tired shots from tired minds after the shellacking in the field. It's old style test cricket we need to be tougher

But as poor as England have been in this one match Windies have played like an experienced outfit. Well done to them.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 26, 2019, 06:54:57 PM
Moeen has to go. Give leech a run

Brain dead cricket.

Collingwood sums it up nicely currently.. he states Bairstow isnít unlucky and runs are irrelevant. Colly tslking sense, key talking utter tripe

Quite simply we have too many 6/7ís so time to drop the ones not suitable and at least give those who want to bat like top order players a fair run

Buttler.. he is genuinely doing a sterling job so far. Batting with discipline and is adapting to the match situation. Heís winning me around tbh. Mentally seems willing to adapt and nit just go Ďaggressiveí or Ďpostiive brand of cricketí.. sadly, as I was typing he played a stupidly aggressive shot
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on January 26, 2019, 07:02:34 PM
Has Mo's batting gone that far downhill that he no longer deserves his place?

I mean is there justification that says Leach should play as the only specialist spinner?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 26, 2019, 07:07:00 PM
Has Mo's batting gone that far downhill that he no longer deserves his place?

I mean is there justification that says Leach should play as the only specialist spinner?

Moeen is there to be a spinner. His batting should be irrelevant. Play your best spinner. If your top six plus all rounder isnít good though to bat then find better test batsmen
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 26, 2019, 07:10:53 PM
Thing is, I don't think we have that many classically styled top order players available to us - if you listen to the various commentaries the name that comes up most often is Jason "Voted the man most likely to stonewall a draw" Roy ferchrissakes.  Denly for Jennings seems like a possible idea - if nothing else, would be no worse than Rashid as a spinner - but really, if you look through the candidates who is there.  At the D1 counties, the regular top threes last year (sans overseas):

Surrey - Burns, Stoneman
Essex - Cook, Browne, Chopra
Somerset - Trescothick, Byrom
Yorkshire - Lyth, Brook
Hampshire - Weatherall, Vince, Adams
Notts - Mullaney, Libby, Slater
Lancs - Hameed, Jones, Davies
Worcs - Mitchell

Not many contenders leaping out - Brook and Byrom will be three years from now, Hameed and Davies too I hope.  But now?  Not seeing it.

Go into D2, who is there?  Of the counties with recent D1 experience:

Middx - Robson, Gubbins, Eskinazi, Holden
Warks - Sibley, Rhodes
Durham - Lees, Steel

Then you've got a coulple of promising names in Phil Salt, Chris Dent, Sam Bracey but with no pedigree beyond d2...

I could pick names, but I would be guessing.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 26, 2019, 07:15:39 PM
Thing is, I don't think we have that many classically styled top order players available to us - if you listen to the various commentaries the name that comes up most often is Jason "Voted the man most likely to stonewall a draw" Roy ferchrissakes.  Denly for Jennings seems like a possible idea - if nothing else, would be no worse than Rashid as a spinner - but really, if you look through the candidates who is there.  At the D1 counties, the regular top threes last year (sans overseas):

Surrey - Burns, Stoneman
Essex - Cook, Browne, Chopra
Somerset - Trescothick, Byrom
Yorkshire - Lyth, Brook
Hampshire - Weatherall, Vince, Adams
Notts - Mullaney, Libby, Slater
Lancs - Hameed, Jones, Davies
Worcs - Mitchell

Not many contenders leaping out - Brook and Byrom will be three years from now, Hameed and Davies too I hope.  But now?  Not seeing it.

Go into D2, who is there?  Of the counties with recent D1 experience:

Middx - Robson, Gubbins, Eskinazi, Holden
Warks - Sibley, Rhodes
Durham - Lees, Steel

Then you've got a coulple of promising names in Phil Salt, Chris Dent, Sam Bracey but with no pedigree beyond d2...

I could pick names, but I would be guessing.

Sadly I agree. County cricket just isnít producing quality top three players. These guys listed (barring a couple ) are all but part red ball openers and white ball players. We need counties to produce some specialist red ball top order bats


Foakes should go for the not out here.. spoke too soon... he gone.. poorly again .. his avg is plummeting now.. needs some runs or Bairstow should go back to 6/7 as wk
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Buzz on January 26, 2019, 07:16:33 PM
I can see Curran, Rashid, Mo all getting dropped for the next game.
Jennings too, but there isn't a replacement opener.

Also Foakes coming in has made selection much harder...

However we need a top order batsman.
But anyone who thinks someone new will start doing well think about this...
The next games are May against Ireland, then the Ashes and the away against SA.
It doesn't get any tougher than that.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 26, 2019, 07:20:42 PM
I can see Curran, Rashid, Mo all getting dropped for the next game.
Jennings too, but there isn't a replacement opener.

Also Foakes coming in has made selection much harder...

However we need a top order batsman.
But anyone who thinks someone new will start doing well think about this...
The next games are May against Ireland, then the Ashes and the away against SA.
It doesn't get any tougher than that.

I think I was right when I said that we cannot play Ali and Rashid as our spin pairing.  Leach and Ali or Leach and Rashid conceivably, but not the two together.  It depends whether they stay with the usual dry, low turner next or whether there is another quicker deck. 
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 26, 2019, 07:25:58 PM
I can see Curran, Rashid, Mo all getting dropped for the next game.
Jennings too, but there isn't a replacement opener.

Also Foakes coming in has made selection much harder...

However we need a top order batsman.
But anyone who thinks someone new will start doing well think about this...
The next games are May against Ireland, then the Ashes and the away against SA.
It doesn't get any tougher than that.

Woakes and broad in for curran and Rashid . Curran just isnít up to being either a bowler or batter so is competing with stokes as all rounder and it isnít even close.
Leech in for moeen. Moeen is done and should now act as second spinner like monty did formswann

Batting wise.. Jennings canít stay, so whoever is in the squad send them in but accept they might do no better.

ECB needs to sort the counties out as they arenít producing test batters .. loads and loads of 6/7ís tbf
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 26, 2019, 07:27:51 PM
Wtf Rashid.. not even trying to survive to the close..

Lack of Desire to fight.. jut wack wack wack
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: billyb on January 26, 2019, 07:32:58 PM
I agree @Buzz, I'd drop Curran, Rashid and Mo. To be honest I'd probably drop Jennings too- let's see what Denly has got.
Broad will come back in, possibly Leach to offer some control unless Root's offies are enough. I don't see Wood playing, but he is our most 'different' bowling option. In Woakes we have a Rolls-Royce of an All Rounder. I'm not saying he's going to change the series but he is a far better bowler than Curran at the moment. This has been a really poor performance from England. The only highlights being Anderson's 5-for, Stokes perhaps and Burns scoring 80-odd. Oh, and bring Vince in to the squad for cover.

My argument here is that England's top order isn't strong enough to score consistent runs at the moment, and the lower order can't always be relied upon. Therefore we need the best bowling attack we have to restrict the opposition.

Burns
Jennings--- Denly (Doubt it will happen but we need to see him at some point!)
Bairstow
Root
Stokes
Buttler 
             
Ali--- Foakes
Foakes--- Woakes
Curran--- Broad
Rashid--- Leach
Anderson
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on January 26, 2019, 07:35:18 PM
Since Moeen last scored a test hundred, some 35 innings ago, he's averaging 23 with the bat. In that time he's scored just four half centuries and in fact have more ducks(6) than fifties. He never was an all rounder a bit of a luxury player.

He's no longer a luxury we can afford considering we have so many passengers in the side. Jennings, Curran, Moeen and Rashid should go be dropped.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: smilley792 on January 26, 2019, 07:39:12 PM
What happens if broad comes in for next test and is crap like he is for 9 out of the ten tests heís played in, in the last few years?

Dude only turns up once in a while.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 26, 2019, 07:42:28 PM
From whatís out there

Burns
Denly
Bairstow
Root
Buttler
Stokes
Foakes
Woakes
Broad
Anderson
Leech

However, Iíd tell Bairstow and Foakes they are now competing for the wk spot only. Iíd tell stokes heís now a six/7 and Iíd tell buttler heís at five but MUsT get his avg above 40 by the end of the SA tour. If itís not, heís done.

Leaves problems at 2/3 so we simply see how denly does and then just give the highest run scorer who when watched isnít another one day style player a go.

Canít just keep putting round pegs in square holes as they obviously arenít willing or able to change their mentalities or styles
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on January 26, 2019, 07:44:43 PM
What happens if broad comes in for next test and is crap like he is for 9 out of the ten tests heís played in, in the last few years?

Dude only turns up once in a while.
I'd rather pick a geezer with 400 wickets than three geezers combined barely good enough to be in the side
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 26, 2019, 07:44:43 PM
What happens if broad comes in for next test and is crap like he is for 9 out of the ten tests heís played in, in the last few years?

Dude only turns up once in a while.

 I canít argue Chris. If he doesnít turn up then wood comes in and come the ashes we go with whoever is fast and doing the best. Start trying others. These guys are not the answer and have been given a go
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 26, 2019, 07:47:01 PM
Letís see if root has the gonads to face the media or will they send a junior player, spare player or coach

Not that they will say anything than what amounts to PR spin
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: NT50 on January 26, 2019, 07:49:00 PM
Big fan of the fact that Chase now has better figures than Shane Warne ever claimed against England
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Alvaro on January 26, 2019, 07:57:58 PM
Makes sense to me Billy
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: shadowlight on January 26, 2019, 08:00:45 PM
Congratulation West Indies, you were the better team on the field.

Edit: One thing that I cannot seem to understand is England's fixation with Ashes and constantly looking ahead, instead of concentrating on the current team and game.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: smilley792 on January 26, 2019, 08:09:40 PM
I'd rather pick a geezer with 400 wickets than three geezers combined barely good enough to be in the side

Since January 2017.

Ali has took More wickets than broad.

Ali and Curran have better strike rates and better average than broad.

Rashid has a better strike rate than broad.

All 3 are better batsman than broad, as broad still shuts his eyes and dives to square leg.



But yeah letís concentrate on what broad did in his pomp, not what heís done in the last few years. And even those figures are made to look better by his random innings when he decides to show up
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 26, 2019, 08:23:04 PM
Congratulation West Indies, you were the better team on the field.

Edit: One thing that I cannot seem to understand is England's fixation with Ashes and constantly looking ahead, instead of concentrating on the current team and game.

Well said and it's quite true, all we should be thinking about is this tour, hence why Denly should play and bring some experience.

If not Denly then ok but respect the Windies and just think about now. the media seem obsessed with just one series every two years.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on January 26, 2019, 08:38:41 PM
Well played WI.

How's this for a brutal stat from the test...

England: 323-20
Holder & Dowrich: 323-2
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 26, 2019, 08:43:00 PM
Since jan 1 2018

Jennings 27
Burns 30
Bairstow 30
Root 39
Stokes 26
Buttler 42
Moeen 17
Foakes 47
Curran 33

All rounded up
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: billyb on January 26, 2019, 09:52:49 PM
Okay, I've done some statistics just to see whether our frustration with England not 'batting time' pans out.

It does. I took the recognised batsmen & all-rounders from: India (World No.1), South Africa (World No.2), England (World No.3) and New Zealand (World No.4). I used the last 4 test matches as my dataset as anything bigger would have taken too long. I then looked at their runs scored & balls faced. My theory is that England consistently don't bat for long enough, as we saw today.

Some initial thoughts: Moeen Ali and Rahul's form has been atrocious- 78 & 94 runs over 4 Tests. New Zealand are either seriously in-form or are future possible World No.1... They had less players in my analysis too. England aren't as good as we like to think. South Africa's batting unit has been average lately, but they keep winning!

These two tables show the gulf in quality between England and New Zealand over the past 4 tests.

(https://i.postimg.cc/HsWbtyFD/England-Stats.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTtF5hKS/New-Zealand-Stats.jpg)

Finally, I then looked at the averages of these four teams. Interesting results!
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMcBD8vJ/World-Stats.jpg)

Thanks for reading!


Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 26, 2019, 09:54:21 PM
Bit radical but why not throw this out there:

Burns
Woakes
Denly
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Buttler
Foakes
Curran
Anderson
Leach
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on January 26, 2019, 09:56:12 PM
Great win by West Indies, out played England in all departments

Think itís highly disrespectful that the English commentators are blaming the lack of warm up games for losing - thatís always the go to excuse


Rootís batting has gone downhill since getting the captaincy. No longer in the same class as KW, Kohli and smith
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on January 26, 2019, 11:07:49 PM
If nothing else, Burns is looking the part.

Was he? He played any number of shots every bit as bad as the one Jennings got out to but had the luck for them to fall into gaps then missed a straight ball by a mile to start the collapse. 

He had had less chances than some of those around him so deserves this series , but his technique is awful.  He plants on off stump then had no movement to the line of the ball.  Anything that goes away from him and he is left wafting miles away from his head position, anything coming back in and he is falling over. 

The batting unit failed badly in this test but the options in the touring party look limited right now.  One could argue Denly should get a go after enjoying the holiday of a lifetime so far this winter but he isn't a natural opener.   Bowling wise I am not sure how anyone can pick the attack now without having seen the pitch that the 2nd test will be played on.  Barbados is one ground in the Carribean where spin has been less influential, and to me the way the pitch played on day 4 suggests England were a right to pick 2 spinners.  I didn't see how anyone can suggest dropping both Ali and Rashid until we see what the surface for the next test will be like a
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Number4 on January 26, 2019, 11:19:12 PM
The best way to get good at something is to do it a lot. English professional cricketers do not play enough proper cricket.

I'm sick to death of these arguments that we are simply picking the wrong people.

Anyway, just a few months ago, you were all saying what a great team we had.

Not just English cricketers.  :(
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on January 27, 2019, 07:18:42 AM
I have been thinking about the overall picture of this a bit more with regards the WI and world cricket.

Putting my England allegences aside. How good it was to see a good WI side with very good Crickerer's in it, Hetmyer looks a great talent, Holder continuing his form and fast bowlers running in and bowling fast!

A good and competitive and fully available WI team can only be good for test cricket .
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 27, 2019, 07:52:49 AM
Was he? He played any number of shots every bit as bad as the one Jennings got out to but had the luck for them to fall into gaps then missed a straight ball by a mile to start the collapse. 

 I didn't see how anyone can suggest dropping both Ali and Rashid until we see what the surface for the next test will be like a

Was Burns perfect?  No - he had a few wafty moments first thing yesterday morning.  But he showed a good knowledge of where his off stump was, at least against the seamers, and did an excellent job of putting away the bad balls, as 15 boundaries evidenced.  He has worked very hard on his game - he made a big leap forward last season, even having scored heavily the year before - and did enough here to suggest that he might have the makings of a decent test player.

As for dropping Ali abd Rashid, lets call a spade a spade.  It doesn't matter if the pitch is Chittagong on steroids if you bowl a full bunger and two half trackers most overs.  One has to go to make way for Leach to bring some much needed control (and relief for the pace bowlers) and if there is need for a second, at this point there is  decent argument to consider Denly as a bowler (yes, thats a deliberate exaggeration - but not as big a one as it would have been a week ago)
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 27, 2019, 08:06:41 AM
A good and competitive and fully available WI team can only be good for test cricket .

Especially if they marry that with playing on good pitches like this one rather than the horrid pancakes of recent years.  Its actually the first time I can remember where their Test XI looks more or less like the strongest they have available - you could perhaps argue a full fit Russell would be considered, maybe Evin Lewis - but it is not the shadow side to one day renegades that it was a few years back.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: jamielsn15 on January 27, 2019, 09:02:18 AM
I think George Dobell says it all...

Dobell: Barbados thumping a reminder of England's perennial problems https://es.pn/2Huwbqi (https://es.pn/2Huwbqi)

In particular the observations relating to the focus on the white ball game mid season and batting averages. Simply not good enough, but not a surprise with the focus away from the red ball.

Jennings has to go. He's an opener who prefers spin and can't deal with straight balls. This Windies attack and the Aussies will tear him apart. Denley in for this tour only then selectors, please pick on County Championship merit.  Pick the players in form
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: jamielsn15 on January 27, 2019, 09:04:31 AM
In addition, Bairstow isn't a number 3, I'd swap him and Root
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 27, 2019, 09:11:39 AM
Pick the players in form

It will at last be nice next year that the first class season is not shoehorned into the first two and last month of the season.  Maybe playing on some mis Summer pitches will give us a better idea of who is and is not top quality.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 27, 2019, 09:15:18 AM
In addition, Bairstow isn't a number 3, I'd swap him and Root

No, he's ideally a four or five.  But Root doesn't want the job, and Stokes is bowled into the ground.  We have an issue really in that we have probably seven guys (the three above, Buttler, Foakes, Ali, Curran, Woakes) whose best position is between 4, mostly 5 and 7 but a paucity of real options in the top three.  It seems remarkable to think that a decade ago players as good as Rob Key got only a handful of tests and David Sales didn't even get one.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: shadowlight on January 27, 2019, 08:27:09 PM
No, he's ideally a four or five.  But Root doesn't want the job, and Stokes is bowled into the ground.  We have an issue really in that we have probably seven guys (the three above, Buttler, Foakes, Ali, Curran, Woakes) whose best position is between 4, mostly 5 and 7 but a paucity of real options in the top three.  It seems remarkable to think that a decade ago players as good as Rob Key got only a handful of tests and David Sales didn't even get one.

Has Buttler shown any desire to say bat at 3 or has England management basically said we need you to bat at 7?  Since, he has come back to the team, I have gotten the impression that he has valued his wicket and is willing to play as a test batsmen should be playing keeping team requirements and time in mind.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 28, 2019, 08:11:55 PM
Ben Foakes quoted as saying today a change may need to come after such a heavy defeat in the test. A hugely mature attitude given he has only just got into the team. Replacing him with either Bairstow or Butler is the wrong move in my book but it would enable Root to have his preferred combination of bowlers, as in an extra one, making 6.

Does anyone think England are going to go back to Bairstow for the next match and if so who bats 3? An impossibility for JB to do both jobs you would think.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: LateBloomer on January 28, 2019, 08:26:29 PM
Bowling lacking penetration, Batting lacking application

Changing the wicketkeeper should be the last thing on their mind!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 28, 2019, 08:31:48 PM
Bairstow to keep wicket and bat at 3 Broad to play plus 2 spinners predictions are that the wicket will be  slightly quicker than Barbados and will turn  but not  excessively on days 4 and 5.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: LateBloomer on January 28, 2019, 08:34:30 PM
Broad and Leach for Curran and Rashid. Jennings in the last chance saloon.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on January 28, 2019, 08:38:14 PM
Bowling lacking penetration, Batting lacking application

Changing the wicketkeeper should be the last thing on their mind!

Totally agree.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SOULMAN1012 on January 28, 2019, 09:06:06 PM
Broad and Leach for Curran and Rashid. Jennings in the last chance saloon.

Jennings has been in a lock in, in the last chance saloon should be dropped but as he scored a TON only 2 years ago cant see that happening although personally think Denly should get a shot
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: 19reading87 on January 28, 2019, 09:52:44 PM
My team for next test would be...

1 - Burns
2 - Denly
3 - Bairstow
4 - Root
5 - Stokes
6 - Butler
7 - Foakes
8 - Woakes
9 - Broad
10 - Leach
11 - Anderson

Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on January 28, 2019, 09:56:21 PM
I think it's the lack of bowling options that has really hurt the England team lately... Burns, Bairstow, Buttler and Foakes out - Leach, Denly, Woakes and Wood in. Leach has opened for England before, Keaton and Root share keeping duties depending on whether it's swinging or turning. Total cricket.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 28, 2019, 10:15:45 PM
Ben Foakes quoted as saying today a change may need to come after such a heavy defeat in the test. A hugely mature attitude given he has only just got into the team. Replacing him with either Bairstow or Butler is the wrong move in my book but it would enable Root to have his preferred combination of bowlers, as in an extra one, making 6.

Does anyone think England are going to go back to Bairstow for the next match and if so who bats 3? An impossibility for JB to do both jobs you would think.


Nah. If they want six bowlers Denly for Jennings would do that.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: LateBloomer on January 28, 2019, 11:16:00 PM
6 bowlers is not nessecary! Pick the best 4 plus Stokes
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: CricketXI on January 28, 2019, 11:23:06 PM
Are they using Dukes ball in this series?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on January 29, 2019, 09:56:28 AM
Jennings has been in a lock in, in the last chance saloon should be dropped but as he scored a TON only 2 years ago cant see that happening although personally think Denly should get a shot

Erm, he got a hundred a couple of months ago?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on January 29, 2019, 09:57:54 AM
And now Joe Denly is the answer! Who'd have thought?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 29, 2019, 10:12:22 AM
6 bowlers is not nessecary! Pick the best 4 plus Stokes
Yep
If you pick 6  when England  bowl there be days when some. Won't get a go.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: alexhilly1492 on January 29, 2019, 10:15:47 AM
Erm, he got a hundred a couple of months ago?

he did but against a spin heavy attack,

he has been getting out in the same way for far too long (much like Ballance) was and needs to go away on work on it.

denly may not be the answer long term but he is the only one on the tour we can play in place of jennings, beside he cant be any worse!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on January 29, 2019, 11:00:12 AM
I think it's the lack of bowling options that has really hurt the England team lately... Burns, Bairstow, Buttler and Foakes out - Leach, Denly, Woakes and Wood in. Leach has opened for England before, Keaton and Root share keeping duties depending on whether it's swinging or turning. Total cricket.

I'm not going to mention names, but it was once suggested on here that Joe Root should re-invent himself as a no.6 who keeps wicket.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 29, 2019, 11:49:21 AM
I'm not going to mention names, but it was once suggested on here that Joe Root should re-invent himself as a no.6 who keeps wicket.

Yep I remember the post it made me smile
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SLA on January 29, 2019, 12:15:24 PM
My team for next test would be...

1 - Burns
2 - Denly
3 - Bairstow
4 - Root
5 - Stokes
6 - Butler
7 - Foakes
8 - Woakes
9 - Broad
10 - Leach
11 - Anderson


I think that's about right. I might push Buttler (and maybe even Foakes) ahead of Stokes - if he's in the squad as a specialist batsman, then he needs to take that responsibility. Stokes needs the additional rest after bowling 800 overs.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SLA on January 29, 2019, 12:19:53 PM
he did but against a spin heavy attack,

he has been getting out in the same way for far too long (much like Ballance) was and needs to go away on work on it.

denly may not be the answer long term but he is the only one on the tour we can play in place of jennings, beside he cant be any worse!

My concern is that we've got one opener who can't play pace and another who can't play spin. I'm sure Australia will already be planning on getting Lyon on early against Burns.

Jennings still has the same glaring technical deficits as he did last time. He's just bloody useless, if he was a horse he'd be shot. Maybe he should try batting right handed, he couldn't be much worse.

Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 29, 2019, 12:51:25 PM
My concern is that we've got one opener who can't play pace and another who can't play spin. I'm sure Australia will already be planning on getting Lyon on early against Burns.

Jennings still has the same glaring technical deficits as he did last time. He's just bloody useless, if he was a horse he'd be shot. Maybe he should try batting right handed, he couldn't be much worse.



I'm not sure how you come to form your opinions posted on here, Burns has not had enough games to know whether he can or can't play a certain type of bowling, he did OK against spin in Sri Lanka, he is early in his test career to make any real judgement, from his FC record he knows how to score runs, second innings in Barbados he batted very well until one went thru the gate.

Jennings is a superb player of spin and a excellent close in fielder, that's not a useless cricketer. The County game standard has allowed him to score runs without having good enough feet or weight transfer against pace bowling.For a tall bloke he needs feet and weight to move quickly and in the right place, unless hand eye co ordination is in the Trescothick class-which it is not.Trescothick was tall with minimal foot movement but his weight was into the ball most of the time.

I would not have jennings  in myself, as tough as it would be for him I would have Denly in as the only alternative in the top order, even then it's not ideal as he is not an opener.

As many others have quite rightly said, the cupboard is not full of top order class, we have to make the best of the players we have.We are not a bad side when all things are considered.

Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SLA on January 29, 2019, 01:08:02 PM
I'm not sure how you come to form your opinions posted on here

Oh the answer to that is easy, I turned on the telly.


Believe it or not, but back in the days before everyone became totally obsessed with stats, this is how we used to judge batsmen - by watching them bat.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on January 29, 2019, 01:30:10 PM
Not that it's anything to do with the present series, but if Rory Burns walks out the first test of the Ashes and plonks the Aussie seam attack so effectively around Edgbaston that they haul them off and bring Lyon on, I'd say he deserves a pat on the back!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: shadowlight on January 29, 2019, 03:01:05 PM

I think that's about right. I might push Buttler (and maybe even Foakes) ahead of Stokes - if he's in the squad as a specialist batsman, then he needs to take that responsibility. Stokes needs the additional rest after bowling 800 overs.

I would swap Butler and Stokes, but leave Foakes where he is.  Doing that will give Butler added responsibilities and the additional rest that Stokes needs after bowling.  The rest for Stokes all depend on the first 4 showing up.  If England is 60 for 3 or something similar in 20 or 30 overs and the captain contributes his usual run a ball 50 before having a brain fade, Stokes or any of the bowlers is not going to get much of a rest.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SOULMAN1012 on January 29, 2019, 05:43:48 PM
Erm, he got a hundred a couple of months ago?

Sorry meant to state only 2 tests ago
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: shadowlight on January 29, 2019, 07:03:57 PM
Maybe I missed it earlier but this is very disappointing if it comes true - http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/25870769/i-understand-was-dropped-antigua-test-ben-foakes (http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/25870769/i-understand-was-dropped-antigua-test-ben-foakes)

To me the article reads like England Mgmt has already made the decision to drop Foakes and Foakes has already accepted the decision that he is going to be dropped.  Bit harsh to be dropped when everyone else failed in batting, one dropped catch means you lose your place.

Does Cricinfo have the ability to do search for stats on number of dropped catches and byes allowed by the keeper?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 29, 2019, 08:58:43 PM
Well, you'd hope that is Foakes enhancing his all round good egg credentials rather than evidence of creeping insanity.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: billyb on January 29, 2019, 09:09:14 PM
I'll be angry if England drop Foakes, honestly. It would just be another supremely talented player being messed around by a largely feckless ECB.
Ali is offering literally nothing with the bat and couldn't be trusted to hold up an end. Rashid was even worse, bowling wise. Foakes is the best gloveman we have, and offers plenty with the bat as shown in Sri Lanka. I worry that he is going about this wrong- he needs to be saying 'I'm the best here, I dare you to drop me' not this 'I could totally understand' rubbish. Being submissive like that does not bode well.
It depends on the pitch, but Leach is going to offer so much more control than Rashid or Ali, and is equally bad with the bat as those two right now.
Drop Rashid, Ali and Curran, bring in Broad, Leach and Woakes.

PLEASE don't drop Foakes for the love of all things willowy.

Having said that, if Rashid, Ali and Curran go on to score 100s and take  5 wickets each, then fair play...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Kulli on January 29, 2019, 09:12:21 PM
I donít think you come out and make that comment unless youíre already dropped tbh.

Foakes and Rashid our for Broad and Leach would be my guess. Rashid might survive the series since heís one of Smiths pet projects.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 29, 2019, 09:17:23 PM
I get the feeling this might be on the cards thou, and it would be a real backward step if they go this way.

The issue of 'options' for Root is the thing, for arguments sake and I'm not making one we might line up like this:

Burns
Jennings/Denly
Bairstow
Root
Stokes
Buttler
woakes/Curran
Ali
Broad
Leach
Anderson

It gives 4 seamers and two spinners should the pitch turn. If the pitch looks like it's a seamer then both Curran and woakes could play and one spinner is left out or someone like Mark wood could play-still 4 seamers.

England got caught out at Barbados and I think we are going to panic change and leave out Foakes.

You can see how they might be thinking, it seems like Root wants to cover all bases over 5 days.

Hope I'm wrong thou along with quite a few on here, I like having the best keeper
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: billyb on January 29, 2019, 09:19:11 PM
Maybe at the end of the day, it is just a game, and none of it really matters. There are so many things to be angry about right now. Cricket isn't one of them.

I'm just going to look at new kit instead.  :D

Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 29, 2019, 09:23:00 PM
Because it makes so much sense to make Bairstow keep and bat three...

For me, Denly, Broad and Leach for Jennings, Ali and Rashid. Sam Curran will do better as a fourth seamer, and can move up the order a bit.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Kulli on January 29, 2019, 09:29:25 PM
Because it makes so much sense to make Bairstow keep and bat three...

For me, Denly, Broad and Leach for Jennings, Ali and Rashid. Sam Curran will do better as a fourth seamer, and can move up the order a bit.
Iíd agree with that, but not sure they will want to make 3 changes and think Jennings has the most credit in the bank. And that Denly isnít that enticing as a replacement. If we had a better backup candidate heíd be out.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Sam on January 29, 2019, 10:39:33 PM
I donít think you come out and make that comment unless youíre already dropped tbh.

Foakes and Rashid our for Broad and Leach would be my guess. Rashid might survive the series since heís one of Smiths pet projects.

Word is they're considering Denly for Foakes so he can slot in at 3 (and allow Rashid to be replaced by a pacer given the pitch is apparently looking green).
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on January 30, 2019, 12:14:27 AM
It would appear that the captain and coach feel they need 6 bowlers to take wickets across 5 days play out here playing on pitches that will start offering something for pace bowlers then dust over as the game moves on.  Seems harsh on Foakes if he is the one to make way, but it has been mentioned a fair bit by the management team that they are operating with a squad not just 11 players.  So far, everyone bar Bairstow seems to have bought in to it. 

Looks like it could be 6 batsman, Ali at 7 then 4 specialist bowlers if Foakes is to miss out.  Whatever the selection decisions, it seems to me that it is important to avoid knee jerk reactions.  The ODI squad has improved beyond belief during a time that the captain and coach have had a clear idea how they want the team to play, and are prepared to back  guys who go out to play that way
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: shadowlight on January 30, 2019, 12:36:35 AM
What happens if Baristow fails with the bat and drops a catch?  If it happens he should be dropped too.  I know wishful thinking on my part  ;).

I hope the game is a close one and not another blow out on either side.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 30, 2019, 12:50:15 AM
Word is they're considering Denly for Foakes so he can slot in at 3 (and allow Rashid to be replaced by a pacer given the pitch is apparently looking green).

Oh my, that would be an odd selection.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: shadowlight on January 30, 2019, 01:00:07 AM
the captain and coach feel they need 6 bowlers to take wickets across 5 days play

See this is what I am concerned about.  Didn't they have 6 bowlers in the last test - Anderson, Curran, Stokes, Rashid, Ali, Root.  How many overs is the 5 and 6th bolwer expected to bowl, the primary 4 bowlers do their job?  Isn't this the case of the mgmt getting the team wrong in the first game, where they screwed up picking Ali, Rashid and Curran.  They should have picked 2 out of the 3 or if you are looking for a specialist spinner they should have picked Leach.  It also does not help that Root has confidence issues with Rashid.  I am not saying he is a great bowler but Morgan does a great job of managing Rashid in one days (different format).  They have always known that Rashid is going to be more expensive and if they do not account for that when selecting the team, it's their fault.

Also, how is having 6 bowlers going to help with the batting issues, which got blown away for 77 runs.  If the current thinking is correct the bowling unit will be Anderson, Broad, Stokes, Curran, two from (Ali, Leach, Rashid), Root, Denley.

I have no proof but is it possible that Baristow made a stink about not wanting to bat at 3 or his continued desire to keep and the England mgmt basically folded.  If he is selected to keep he should not bat any higher than 7.

I used to admire Baristow's passion now I think he is a complete crybaby and just being selfish based on the last couple of instances both against India and Sri Lanka and not a team player.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on January 30, 2019, 01:10:23 AM
Some statistical food for thought - Only four(!) members of the England squad average over 40 in first class cricket. Only two of those also average over 40 in test cricket... Root and Foakes. Amazing that Foakes has batted 8 in the last two tests.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: LateBloomer on January 30, 2019, 01:59:25 AM
All the best Test teams I can think of had 4 bowlers. Some had an allrounder as 5th option, some had part-timers

Why on earth the England management think they need 6 is beyond me. If your 1st 5 aren't good enough, bowler number 6 is unlikely to make any difference

I will be disgusted if Foakes is dropped!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: jchokshi on January 30, 2019, 04:57:28 AM
Interesting observation(s)!

An outsider asks: what's going on with English cricket?


http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/25880522/outsider-asks-going-english-cricket (http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/25880522/outsider-asks-going-english-cricket)
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on January 30, 2019, 06:46:15 AM
I just think Root is one of those captain's who needs to have options at his disposal even if that means they sometimes don't get utilised. He feels they are there as a comfort blanket if you like. Whether that says something about his skills in using a smaller attack or are actual bowlers I am not sure.

What I will say is I think they are really worried about bowling Stokes into the ground.

If Denly for Foakes is true I think that is a bit mad because that's potentially 8 bowlers (including Root & Denly).

I would like to see -

Burns
Denly
Bairstow
Root
Buttler
Stokes
Foakes
Curran
Broad
Leach
Anderson

This gives you 5 main bowlers plus Root and Denly which should be more than enough. Keep Curran as a left arm option but now the extra not main seamer. Broad back and Leach in as specialist spinner will do a better job than Rashid and Ali. Also i think if we don't give Denly a go now when is he?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Kulli on January 30, 2019, 07:34:56 AM
Some statistical food for thought - Only four(!) members of the England squad average over 40 in first class cricket. Only two of those also average over 40 in test cricket... Root and Foakes. Amazing that Foakes has batted 8 in the last two tests.

I like Foakes and hope he stays in the side but thats not a very fair measure. He's only played SL, who are rubbish and we smashed. Buttle jennings and Bairstow all also averaged over 40 in the same period, with Root and Curran not far behind.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on January 30, 2019, 09:11:06 AM
The real debate should be why should Bairstow get selected over Foakes, if it is true that the Surrey glove man is getting dropped. Aside from 2016 where Bairstow averaged 59 across 17 Tests, his remaining 44 Tests he averages 30. Yes the supposedly 'second best batsman' averages 30, that means he's fortunate to even to considered. 2016 seems more and more a fluke for Bairstow with every passing year. Dare I say it he seems vastly overrated...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on January 30, 2019, 10:24:41 AM
All the best Test teams I can think of had 4 bowlers. Some had an allrounder as 5th option, some had part-timers

Why on earth the England management think they need 6 is beyond me. If your 1st 5 aren't good enough, bowler number 6 is unlikely to make any difference

I will be disgusted if Foakes is dropped!


They don't need 6 bowlers at home in conditions to which our bowling attack is well suited, but away from home the view seems to be that they need the extra variety to the attack in order to win games.  Much has been made of our recent away record, particularly the fact that we can't take 20 wickets away from home, so this would appear to be the answer to that.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on January 30, 2019, 10:27:48 AM
The real debate should be why should Bairstow get selected over Foakes, if it is true that the Surrey glove man is getting dropped. Aside from 2016 where Bairstow averaged 59 across 17 Tests, his remaining 44 Tests he averages 30. Yes the supposedly 'second best batsman' averages 30, that means he's fortunate to even to considered. 2016 seems more and more a fluke for Bairstow with every passing year. Dare I say it he seems vastly overrated...

I tend to agree with this view.  I would be surprised if there is a top order player who gets bowled as many times as Bairstow does and his record with the bat seems to sneak under the radar given England's problems finding players to hold down other positions in the batting line up
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: FattusCattus on January 30, 2019, 10:27:49 AM
Sadly I don;t think England will drop Mo, but he may have reached the stage whereby this is a tour he will struggle to score runs on and therefore becomes a bit of a luxury.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: cricketbadger on January 30, 2019, 10:40:53 AM
If Foakes is dropped, I will no longer support England. Absolute joke of a decision if it comes to fruition

Of the 3 keepers, Butler has to go if they are dropping 1. He also dropped a catch, didn't score any runs and his technique is by far the worst for Test match cricket. Noticeably he never gets attacked for his ability to build a test match innings, seemingly a Golden Boy

I'd kick Jennings into touch too, Denly in as a stop gap before trying a new option in the summer over here. Rashid and Ali out for for Leach and Broad
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Kulli on January 30, 2019, 11:17:35 AM
If Foakes is dropped, I will no longer support England. Absolute joke of a decision if it comes to fruition

Of the 3 keepers, Butler has to go if they are dropping 1. He also dropped a catch, didn't score any runs and his technique is by far the worst for Test match cricket. Noticeably he never gets attacked for his ability to build a test match innings, seemingly a Golden Boy

I'd kick Jennings into touch too, Denly in as a stop gap before trying a new option in the summer over here. Rashid and Ali out for for Leach and Broad

I wouldn't say I'm a huge Buttler fan (in the test side) but he's done pretty well since he came back, well enough not to be dropped anyway.

EDIT - Averaging 41 since his come back.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on January 30, 2019, 11:37:55 AM
Butler has been England's second best batsman after Root since coming back into the side and has shown the ability to bat patiently when required as well as playing his more natural attacking game.  I don't see a better option for England to bat in the middle order
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Buzz on January 30, 2019, 01:07:34 PM
Jennings is not in the match 12...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Kulli on January 30, 2019, 01:10:53 PM
Jennings is not in the match 12...

Interesting, is this official?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: jamielsn15 on January 30, 2019, 02:38:05 PM
Footage on twitter of Bairstow going through keeping drills. He may well do this every game but if he were to keep he cannot bat 3. Way too much pressure physically and mentally.

If Jennings doesn't play, it has to be Burns and Denley to open, Buttler at 3, then Root, Stokes, Bairstow (if keeping).

If Buttler is playing solely as a batsman, he has to bat three. Root won't and all others need to be able to focus on their bowling/keeping and maxjmising those skills. That means batting middle order.

All tbis assumes Foakes doesn't keep, which would be a shame
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 30, 2019, 02:49:35 PM
Yes and a tough ask for butler if correct. We have tried a few lower order at 3 in the last 6 months. butler has shown patience I don't think anyone knew he had over the last 12 months but it's a big job against a new ball.

I still maintain Root should be 3 and not captain but the way forward is set you would think.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ScottParko on January 30, 2019, 03:26:16 PM
I think the way itís listed in the article is probably a big clue. Suggests no change to the batting order just that one personnel change. Rashid also isnít in the squad. Itís basically Anderson Ali then perm 2 out of Broad Curran Leach.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 30, 2019, 03:37:36 PM
I don't like Jennings but putting Denly in just feels like a temporary plug. When did he last open for Kent in 4 day cricket?

For me it's one of Broad, Curran or Leach. Would like Broad, personally.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 30, 2019, 03:52:33 PM
Denly confirmed to make his debut, a tough ask but hope he goes well, it may be short term but we need to stop looking past every series to Australia.

It's disrespectful to the opposition and look where we are 0-1.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Kulli on January 30, 2019, 03:56:08 PM
surely if you thought Jennings was within a game of being dropped you'd have taken proper cover in terms of opening bats. Denly is undoubtably a handy player but it's not really as a red ball opening bat that he's been turning heads recently!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Warneymonster on January 30, 2019, 04:00:22 PM
Rashid sent home, no explanation as to why but doubt the ECB doubt want to admit its because Joe Root has finally said he doesn't want him
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 30, 2019, 04:04:29 PM
surely if you thought Jennings was within a game of being dropped you'd have taken proper cover in terms of opening bats. Denly is undoubtably a handy player but it's not really as a red ball opening bat that he's been turning heads recently!

Very true, perhaps we were arrogant after SL and thought we could carry Jennings for a 3 match series without cover.

Not sure if we did have a cover opener who that would of been though. Can't think of a lions player apart from Clarke who bats 3 normally
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Sam on January 30, 2019, 04:13:49 PM
Rashid sent home, no explanation as to why but doubt the ECB doubt want to admit its because Joe Root has finally said he doesn't want him

Expecting a child apparently.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Kulli on January 30, 2019, 04:22:32 PM
Very true, perhaps we were arrogant after SL and thought we could carry Jennings for a 3 match series without cover.

Not sure if we did have a cover opener who that would of been though. Can't think of a lions player apart from Clarke who bats 3 normally
who's been opening for the Lions recently? Burns and Jennings?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Sam on January 30, 2019, 04:24:12 PM
who's been opening for the Lions recently? Burns and Jennings?

Gubbins and Holden did it in the UAE and presumably will in India too.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on January 30, 2019, 04:49:21 PM
I like Foakes and hope he stays in the side but thats not a very fair measure. He's only played SL, who are rubbish and we smashed. Buttle jennings and Bairstow all also averaged over 40 in the same period, with Root and Curran not far behind.
Yes to be fair you can't place too much emphasis on Foakes' test average just yet! The first class stats are instructive though, particularly as Foakes has played the majority of his first class career in the top 6. Buttler's a much better player than his career average now too, with the caveat that he needs to play more really big innings.

Selectors probably regretting they didn't bother to take any proper batting cover. Moeen vs Curran for the final spot I guess. Must confess though - Curran's great and all, but I still fail to see what he is better at than Chris Woakes.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on January 30, 2019, 05:07:57 PM
The worry for me with Woakes is whether he had recovered properly from the serious muscle tear he suffered during 2017.  Since then he has looked down on pace and hadn't looked as likely to generate that dangerous late swing he produced prior to his injury.  His batting has looked excellent though and it maybe that he and Curran will have to fight it out where the side needs a 4th seater who can bat
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SOULMAN1012 on January 30, 2019, 06:24:06 PM
Pleased for Denly. Firstly as a Keny fan its great to have our captain represent England been a while since we had a test capped player.
Secondly its good for DIV 2 players who have had consistent good seasons and doing well in global competitions although these are obviously white ball tournaments.

He has always been a No3 so potential to ease into an opening spot as will have faced the new ball on plenty of occasions, maybe he will just take to Test cricket has a technique thats been set for a long time and is a seasoned Pro
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 30, 2019, 06:53:43 PM
I'm sure there will be a lot us us hoping he does well. He will bring experience which we are lacking in and I don't think you need to look too far forward all the time. Very hard to see Jennings playing the quicks in the ashes and South Africa away next year- so chances are we needed someone else anyway.

Who that will be God only knows but for now there are two tests to play and we need to up our game to get a drawn series at least.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on January 30, 2019, 07:41:42 PM
I think it's been a while since we have had a right hand, left hand opening combination. So will be interesting to see if that gives any freebies on the pads etc... with the bowlers straying in line if we can rotate the strike.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 31, 2019, 08:39:53 AM
Last right hander was Hameed, I think. Feels weird.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 31, 2019, 01:44:18 PM
Ali is a very fortunate boy.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on January 31, 2019, 01:48:44 PM
odd pitch west indies have prepared. why give england home conditions

should've prepared 2 absolute roads to win the series 1-0
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Kulli on January 31, 2019, 01:52:38 PM
Ali is a very fortunate boy.

Doesnít he have something like 34 wickets in his last 6 tests?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on January 31, 2019, 02:03:23 PM
In spinning conditions in Sri Lanka, Ali was the pick of the 3 spinners.  I lived through the 90s where we chopped and changed every week.  Luckily now, one bad tests doesn't mean a good player loses their place.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on January 31, 2019, 02:20:37 PM
Denly confirmed to make his debut, a tough ask but hope he goes well, it may be short term but we need to stop looking past every series to Australia.

It's disrespectful to the opposition and look where we are 0-1.

Yes, I hate that 'Ashes are what really matters' mentality. (I also hate that an Ashes summer brings out all the part-timers.  :o)

Denly is a good advert for giving up the booze, although I'm unsure as to whether he still likes a cigarette?

A few seasons ago I saw him cut a forlorn figure on the Lord's Nursery Ground having been left out of the Middlesex championship XI.

Go well!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 31, 2019, 02:23:41 PM
I hate cricket
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on January 31, 2019, 02:27:41 PM
Denly* saved from missing a straight ball. how did the ump not give that on field
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 31, 2019, 02:28:12 PM
One down and that was mighty close lbw for Joe !
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on January 31, 2019, 02:29:30 PM
I hate cricket

It gives me no satisfaction to say it, but I had no reason to believe Burns would fare much better than Stoneman. They went to Stoneman first, after all.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 31, 2019, 02:31:05 PM
It gives me no satisfaction to say it, but I had no reason to believe Burns would fare much better than Stoneman. They went to Stoneman first, after all.

Stoneman had the luxury of a run at home and did nothing, I think Burns would fare better (naturally). Was a decent ball.

Have seen Wimbledon courts less greener than this.
 
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on January 31, 2019, 02:33:08 PM
Doesnít he have something like 34 wickets in his last 6 tests?
Leach's recent record is every bit as good as Moeen's though, and his ability to bowl a controlling spell is far better. Can't help but suspect that Moeen is still getting in the side because of his batting.

Joe Denly is a lucky lucky boy with that lbw review!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on January 31, 2019, 02:43:24 PM
Stoneman had the luxury of a run at home and did nothing, I think Burns would fare better (naturally). Was a decent ball.

Have seen Wimbledon courts less greener than this.

I wasn't suggesting Stoneman was unfairly treated. Rather, I'm not that optimistic about Burns cutting it at Test level.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on January 31, 2019, 02:48:48 PM
Definitely a BBL shot from Denly. Poked at a couple wide ones in the first over too and now nicks off to a wide one
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 31, 2019, 02:49:06 PM
That is absolutely appalling from Denly
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Kulli on January 31, 2019, 02:50:26 PM
Leach's recent record is every bit as good as Moeen's though, and his ability to bowl a controlling spell is far better. Can't help but suspect that Moeen is still getting in the side because of his batting.

Joe Denly is a lucky lucky boy with that lbw review!

for sure, but his bowling is still a threat, and while his batting is very frustrating, he still scores a fair number. Especially considering some of our batsmen aren't exactly gobbling up bowling attacks.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on January 31, 2019, 02:55:55 PM
I like this type of surface for test match cricket where it will probably be at its best for batting on day 2.  The captain winning the toss will know that it will offer assistance to the bowlers first up, but if the batsman dig in then they will have the chance to score runs as conditions get better for batting
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Kulli on January 31, 2019, 02:57:16 PM
Bring back Jennings!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on January 31, 2019, 02:58:22 PM
if the batsman dig in
I'm intrigued by this part, can you explain more about this unconventional idea?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on January 31, 2019, 03:05:15 PM
I'm intrigued by this part, can you explain more about this unconventional idea?

Given the variation in bounce and carry on this pitch ao far would probably be putting the cut shot back in the bag for a start.  Ditto that lazy waft that Burns seems committed to playing.

I don't believe that the current state of English batting had anything to do with the increase in limited overs cricket - things were far far worse in the 90s when T20 was limited to under 15s and below at club level - but simply a lack of quality top order players currently available to England
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on January 31, 2019, 03:06:12 PM
for sure, but his bowling is still a threat, and while his batting is very frustrating, he still scores a fair number. Especially considering some of our batsmen aren't exactly gobbling up bowling attacks.
Moeen averages 22 with the bat outside of England, which is dreadful. He shouldn't be in the side
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: goodarmcindy on January 31, 2019, 03:19:07 PM
That Denly dismissal was absolutely abysmal. Burns got a good ball, but Denly... oh dear.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 31, 2019, 03:20:06 PM
Sigh, can't stop that ball
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 31, 2019, 03:20:48 PM
No excusing a shocking shot from Denly and burns was got out

But how do you play one Root got? This pitch looks uneven and clearly is!!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: goodarmcindy on January 31, 2019, 03:21:16 PM
That's absolutely shot up off a good length. Not sure how you play it.

Buttler up the order. Good luck, Jos.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on January 31, 2019, 03:21:57 PM
Root should've been out first ball but what a ball that was.

surely this pitch is only going to get worse now! 150 could be a good score
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 31, 2019, 03:23:07 PM
Do we think this pitch is unfit for purpose? I mean, Jesus Christ.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Calzehbhoy on January 31, 2019, 03:24:31 PM
That is amazing fielding!

Worrying that has happened a couple of hours into the test!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: KD4 on January 31, 2019, 03:25:33 PM
This match will be over quickly. There's nothing Root could do.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Kulli on January 31, 2019, 03:25:58 PM
We'll win this if the pitch doesn't flatten out as the game goes on.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on January 31, 2019, 03:26:00 PM
Do we think this pitch is unfit for purpose? I mean, Jesus Christ.

Think a couple of the South african ones were a lot worse this year and last year. looks flat compared to them
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on January 31, 2019, 03:26:32 PM
Broad and Stokes should be able to shred the Windies on this surface. Borderline dodgy this pitch
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 31, 2019, 03:27:57 PM
This match will be over quickly. There's nothing Root could do.

Nope, not sure what anyone can do about that.

You wonder at this point whether someone like Buttler should be told to treat it like an ODI and give it some humpty, because this looks like a pitch that has one with your name written on it in big gold letters...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 31, 2019, 03:28:57 PM
Think a couple of the South african ones were a lot worse this year and last year. looks flat compared to them

Guess we'll see how it goes when they have a bat, but the variable bounce on this inside an hour and a half is just mad.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 31, 2019, 03:31:19 PM
Nope, not sure what anyone can do about that.

You wonder at this point whether someone like Buttler should be told to treat it like an ODI and give it some humpty, because this looks like a pitch that has one with your name written on it in big gold letters...

Bairstow is playing his shots and this could suit his game on this track. He is aggressive and so that's how you has to play on this
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: goodarmcindy on January 31, 2019, 03:40:20 PM
Appreciate the intent to come down to Holder to unsettle him, but look where Buttler ends up playing that ball. He's gone down and across outside off stump, so is looking to defend a ball on about a sixth stump line. Just because you've rushed down doesn't mean you have to play at the ball, or you have to ensure you come down in a straight line. It's just brainless.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: KD4 on January 31, 2019, 03:42:36 PM
Yeah he didn't need to play at it. He just should have left it.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on January 31, 2019, 03:43:30 PM
First session of a test match and coming down the wicket. The pitch isn't that poor surely!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on January 31, 2019, 03:47:36 PM
Yep good luck playing that.....

https://twitter.com/TheCricketPaper/status/1090998572173148161?s=19
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 31, 2019, 03:56:25 PM
Bairstow taking it to them
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 31, 2019, 04:08:53 PM
Bairstow has been superb this morning. 
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on January 31, 2019, 04:15:10 PM
Bairstow has been superb this morning.
He really stepped it up a gear after Root got out, great awareness to get on the counterattack given the pitch.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on January 31, 2019, 04:18:12 PM
He really stepped it up a gear after Root got out, great awareness to get on the counterattack given the pitch.

Interesting to watch Nasser reviewing the knock and the pitch.  Its not complementary of the pitch, though personally I think it far more interetsing test cricket than 500 plays 500 every time.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 31, 2019, 04:20:49 PM
Bairstow has been superb this morning. 

It helps he can play naturally but yes..excellent innings so far top class
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SLA on January 31, 2019, 04:32:27 PM
in the 90s when T20 was limited to under 15s and below at club level

What now? Were you genuinely unaware that evening T20 cricket leagues go back to the 1980s around the uK if not earlier? I started playing T20 cricket in 1996, and the league my club played in was well established with several divisions.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: mo_town on January 31, 2019, 04:32:57 PM
I wonder if someone mentioned 3 keepers to him before he went out to bat...that really seems to grind his gears :))
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SLA on January 31, 2019, 04:34:47 PM
No excusing a shocking shot from Denly

Bairstow is playing his shots and this could suit his game on this track. He is aggressive and so that's how you has to play on this

Hang on a minute. You can't praise Bairstow for being aggressive, but then throw Denly under the bus for having a go at a wide long hop.

Either being aggressive is the right tactic or it isn't. Fair enough criticise the execution, but not the intent.

(or equally, criticise the intent but then you have to criticise Bairstow equally)
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on January 31, 2019, 04:44:41 PM
what poor umpiring that was! thank god for DRS. 2nd time.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 31, 2019, 04:49:25 PM
Yep Bairstow gone England 5 down
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 31, 2019, 04:53:44 PM
That ball to Stokes was nasty
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 31, 2019, 04:54:09 PM
No excusing a shocking shot from Denly and burns was got out

But how do you play one Root got? This pitch looks uneven and clearly is!!

You can't
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 31, 2019, 04:56:24 PM
Hang on a minute. You can't praise Bairstow for being aggressive, but then throw Denly under the bus for having a go at a wide long hop.

Either being aggressive is the right tactic or it isn't. Fair enough criticise the execution, but not the intent.

(or equally, criticise the intent but then you have to criticise Bairstow equally)

Denly played way too far away from his body, no feet for a top order player that's only a getting out shot-he should of left it as wide as it was

Bairstow saw what the track was like and went ultra aggressive and took a calculated risk - that's intelligent batting

Denly wasn't in long enough to see what the pitch was like.i like Denly but call it as I see it.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 31, 2019, 05:02:23 PM
Denly played way too far away from his body, no feet for a top order player that's only a getting out shot-he should of left it as wide as it was

Bairstow saw what the track was like and went ultra aggressive and took a calculated risk - that's intelligent batting

Denly wasn't in long enough to see what the pitch was like.i like Denly but call it as I see it.

Correct assessment above   Denly  played a one day shot.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on January 31, 2019, 05:03:57 PM
I thought Denly did quite well to reach it, never mind think about scoring off it.

Someone needs to have a word with Moeen, shocking hooking. Also taking one slap on the front of the head from Shannon Gabriel and not changing lids. On a not unrelated note, anyone else looking forward to seeing Broad bat on this?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on January 31, 2019, 05:05:47 PM
Why the fudge can we not play fast bowling. Time and again we get blasted out without any improvement
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SLA on January 31, 2019, 05:22:24 PM
Denly played way too far away from his body, no feet for a top order player that's only a getting out shot-he should of left it as wide as it was

Bairstow saw what the track was like and went ultra aggressive and took a calculated risk - that's intelligent batting

Denly wasn't in long enough to see what the pitch was like.i like Denly but call it as I see it.


Rubbish. It's a cut shot, the ball is supposed to be wide. Balls like that get hammered to the fence all day long. He just got unlucky. If he'd have middled it you'd all be shouting great shot.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 31, 2019, 05:29:58 PM

Rubbish. It's a cut shot, the ball is supposed to be wide. Balls like that get hammered to the fence all day long. He just got unlucky. If he'd have middled it you'd all be shouting great shot.
Unlucky
Well not according to Bumble  on commentary Quote it wasn't the worsed delivery to get a wicket but it's up there
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SLA on January 31, 2019, 05:37:11 PM
Unlucky
Well not according to Bumble  on commentary Quote it wasn't the worsed delivery to get a wicket but it's up there

You can get out to a (No Swearing Please) ball and still be unlucky. The two things aren't mutually exclusive.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on January 31, 2019, 05:48:03 PM

Rubbish. It's a cut shot, the ball is supposed to be wide. Balls like that get hammered to the fence all day long. He just got unlucky. If he'd have middled it you'd all be shouting great shot.

Playing the cut you either need to be in control and keep the ball down or in a position to get enough power in the shot to get it over the infield.  The ball was far too wide to manage either.  It was a dreadful shot in any situation
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: billyb on January 31, 2019, 06:10:55 PM
Moeen ! Stop ruining my beautiful statistics from the last test!!! :D
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 31, 2019, 06:14:42 PM
Definitely a BBL shot from Denly. Poked at a couple wide ones in the first over too and now nicks off to a wide one

Burns did the same first test time and time again, got away with loads then finally nicked it and was caught.. ...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 31, 2019, 06:17:07 PM
Given the variation in bounce and carry on this pitch ao far would probably be putting the cut shot back in the bag for a start.  Ditto that lazy waft that Burns seems committed to playing.

I don't believe that the current state of English batting had anything to do with the increase in limited overs cricket - things were far far worse in the 90s when T20 was limited to under 15s and below at club level - but simply a lack of quality top order players currently available to England

Umm, 8 ball overs was played at club level so letís not pretend T20 is modern . Itís been played for a long
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: FattusCattus on January 31, 2019, 06:22:30 PM
Moeen averages 22 with the bat outside of England, which is dreadful. He shouldn't be in the side

Oh the irony of Moeen top-scoring :)
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SLA on January 31, 2019, 06:23:42 PM
Playing the cut you either need to be in control and keep the ball down or in a position to get enough power in the shot to get it over the infield.  The ball was far too wide to manage either.  It was a dreadful shot in any situation

It wasn't, though. Look where it pitches. Balls like that get thumped to the fence in every form of cricket.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 31, 2019, 06:26:34 PM
Denly played way too far away from his body, no feet for a top order player that's only a getting out shot-he should of left it as wide as it was

Bairstow saw what the track was like and went ultra aggressive and took a calculated risk - that's intelligent batting

Denly wasn't in long enough to see what the pitch was like.i like Denly but call it as I see it.

No feet.. youíve actually watched Bairstow right ??? Mr one day technique ..
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on January 31, 2019, 06:28:05 PM
It wasn't, though. Look where it pitches. Balls like that get thumped to the fence in every form of cricket.

The empirical evidence of him get a tiny nick at the end of the bat suggests maybe it was too far away
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on January 31, 2019, 06:29:26 PM
Umm, 8 ball overs was played at club level so letís not pretend T20 is modern . Itís been played for a long

Not at professional level it hasn't which was the point I was making
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 31, 2019, 06:31:30 PM
Not at professional level it hasn't which was the point I was making

Pro level fine

Club level itís been played for years and years so the decline isnít down to the format, purely the priority itís now given over red ball formats. Same at club level with regards to skills fade as the formats dumbed down. Anyway.. England canít bat but the pitch is interesting.. more interesting that what SL produced
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 31, 2019, 06:37:36 PM
No feet.. youíve actually watched Bairstow right ??? Mr one day technique ..

Bairstow is a middle order batsman at test level he has ended up as our number 3 and yeah he does take the attacking option most times whereas another player would leave balls JB hits, sometimes away from his body.

But credit him today he looked a lot more behind the ball to me and a counter attack worked. He played well, very well.

No idea what a good score is on this but we are in the game
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 31, 2019, 06:44:18 PM
Excellent from Moeen and Foakes
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 31, 2019, 06:52:21 PM
Bairstow is a middle order batsman at test level he has ended up as our number 3 and yeah he does take the attacking option most times whereas another player would leave balls JB hits, sometimes away from his body.

But credit him today he looked a lot more behind the ball to me and a counter attack worked. He played well, very well.

No idea what a good score is on this but we are in the game

He ALwAYS Ďcounter attacksí. He literally knows nothing else.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 31, 2019, 07:06:23 PM
Also this over rate is shocking, fine worthy if you ask me
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SLA on January 31, 2019, 07:08:13 PM
The empirical evidence of him get a tiny nick at the end of the bat suggests maybe it was too far away

That's a daft claim. Not all dismissals are due to poor shot selection, some are down to poor execution, unanticipated movement, or sometimes just bad luck.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 31, 2019, 07:08:30 PM
Also this over rate is shocking, fine worthy if you ask me

England have been worse and werenít punished so hardly fair to suddenly punish WI
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 31, 2019, 07:09:07 PM
That's a daft claim. Not all dismissals are due to poor shot selection, some are down to poor execution, unanticipated movement, or sometimes just bad luck.

Fella, itís a test match.. no self respecting test better should be going near that..
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SLA on January 31, 2019, 07:16:28 PM
Fella, itís a test match.. no self respecting test better should be going near that..

Other commenters are claiming that aggression is the best tactic on this pitch. Do you disagree?

Bairstow hit a near identical delivery for four. Is he not a self respecting test batter?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 31, 2019, 07:16:39 PM
England have been worse and werenít punished so hardly fair to suddenly punish WI

I'm not saying we're good and have had our run ins (Cook got fined/suspended multiple times), but 10 overs an hour or so is shoddy; we're not that bad
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: billyb on January 31, 2019, 07:29:54 PM
Pretty happy with our position given where we are. Enjoyable game. 225/250 probably a great score!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 31, 2019, 07:48:31 PM
Other commenters are claiming that aggression is the best tactic on this pitch. Do you disagree?

Bairstow hit a near identical delivery for four. Is he not a self respecting test batter?

Bairstow isnít a top order test bat. Heís a 6/7 at most.. he is (or should be) a totally beast. However, given the trouble englsnd were in you could argue Bairstow was yet again recklessly attacking ..

Sadly he has no other way
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Calzehbhoy on January 31, 2019, 07:53:46 PM
Bloody Jimmy and his White Ball cricket shots!!

Broad was on for a ton there if Jimmy hadnít been so reckless and played in a one day manor 🙄
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 31, 2019, 07:55:04 PM
England 187 all out now what can Broad Anderson and Stokes get out of this pitch.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 31, 2019, 07:58:31 PM
Bloody Jimmy and his White Ball cricket shots!!

Broad was on for a ton there if Jimmy hadnít been so reckless and played in a one day manor 🙄

True., two sessions and 187 ao is great test batting tbf.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on January 31, 2019, 08:00:33 PM
England 187 all out now what can Broad Anderson and Stokes get out of this pitch.

Yes this is a key hour for us let's see if the spite is in the pitch or due to the extra pace windies have.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: alexhilly1492 on January 31, 2019, 08:04:59 PM
Why is bairstow keeping?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 31, 2019, 08:05:56 PM
Foakes is injured I guess
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: alexhilly1492 on January 31, 2019, 08:06:00 PM
Nvm foakes off field, assume heíll take over when heís back
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Buzz on January 31, 2019, 08:18:10 PM
50p says England bowl too short and don't attack the stumps which you have to do on pitches like this.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 31, 2019, 08:19:01 PM
50p says England bowl too short and don't attack the stumps which you have to do on pitches like this.

Lol
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on January 31, 2019, 08:21:15 PM
Broady's tail is up
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Buzz on January 31, 2019, 08:36:22 PM
Not a single ball in the first 6 overs would have hit the stumps... useless.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on January 31, 2019, 08:52:52 PM
That's a daft claim. Not all dismissals are due to poor shot selection, some are down to poor execution, unanticipated movement, or sometimes just bad luck.

I will accept that I have chosen to ignore all the theoretical ways that he could have been out to all the balls he could have theoretically faced and decided instead to focus on shot he actually played to the ball he actually got out to
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on January 31, 2019, 08:57:10 PM
Credit to the West Indies openers showing how to grind down and get in. Complete contrast to the shot happy english
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: smilley792 on January 31, 2019, 09:01:07 PM
Credit to the West Indies openers showing how to grind down and get in. Complete contrast to the shot happy english

Campbell played a dilscoop.

A DILSCOOP.


Over ten, 18-0. That certainly isnít a non shot happy grind out action........
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on January 31, 2019, 09:03:19 PM
Campbell played a dilscoop.

A DILSCOOP.


Over ten, 18-0. That certainly isnít a non shot happy grind out action........

Least he waited till over 10. Unlike deny who was chasing full and wide balls in the first couple balls he faced.

Theyíve played off the opening bowlers
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 31, 2019, 09:04:08 PM
Credit to the West Indies openers showing how to grind down and get in. Complete contrast to the shot happy english

Iíd have agreed with you but.. dilscoop really has no place in tests
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Alvaro on January 31, 2019, 09:17:40 PM
Thatís it, Iím biting. Bore off.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on January 31, 2019, 09:42:50 PM
That was a rather mediocre day. Pathetic batting display aside from Bairstow and Moeen who biffed it reasonably well. Bowling effort was dreadful. Did we not watch what the Windies did? Continually bowling too short. Needs a miracle session tomorrow morning otherwise it could be all over.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SLA on January 31, 2019, 09:52:33 PM
I will accept that I have chosen to ignore all the theoretical ways that he could have been out to all the balls he could have theoretically faced and decided instead to focus on shot he actually played to the ball he actually got out to

Rob key just said there was no way denly could have left that ball,he just needed to execute the shot better.

Personally I thought he was a bit unlucky as the ball moved a bit. These things happen.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on January 31, 2019, 11:11:52 PM
Rob key just said there was no way denly could have left that ball,he just needed to execute the shot better.


I would have said that i wasn't aware of a single journalist or broadcaster who has labelled it as anything other than a terrible shot but then I admit that I forgot that sky employ a former Kent captain in their ranks
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: LateBloomer on February 01, 2019, 12:25:37 AM
In September I was weighing up whether to go and watch England in Sri Lanka or West Indies.

Looks like I chose the right series! Havent seen a single ball of this one but the scorecard isnt pretty
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Number4 on February 01, 2019, 08:17:08 AM
That was a rather mediocre day. Pathetic batting display aside from Bairstow and Moeen who biffed it reasonably well. Bowling effort was dreadful. Did we not watch what the Windies did? Continually bowling too short. Needs a miracle session tomorrow morning otherwise it could be all over.

Not sure ďbiffingĒ on day 1 of a Test match was the way to go.

Ok so who are the CBF selectors axing for the next Test match?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 01, 2019, 08:48:07 AM
Not sure ďbiffingĒ on day 1 of a Test match was the way to go.

Ok so who are the CBF selectors axing for the next Test match?

The way it's going - all of them
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: alexhilly1492 on February 01, 2019, 08:52:34 AM
Not sure ďbiffingĒ on day 1 of a Test match was the way to go.

Ok so who are the CBF selectors axing for the next Test match?

at the moment id hope none, we're day one into a test match, and realistically theres not much in back up to replace with anyway,

the only way you could go is Woakes for Curran, leach for Ali and that's about it,

you're not gonna drop Denly after one test, burns deserves a run, bairstow has done nothing wrong, root is captain, buttler has been the best batsman since his recall, stokes is the best alrounder we've had for years, foakes is more than capable with the bat and the best keeper weve had for a long long time, broad and anderson are the best new ball partnership we've ever had with 1000+ wickets between them

that leaves ali and curran vunerable
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: FattusCattus on February 01, 2019, 09:58:18 AM
Although Curran the closest to getting a wicket so far (by pitching it up more?)
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: mo_town on February 01, 2019, 10:27:07 AM
Not sure England has the required resources in their team to take advantage of a pitch like this..not one bowler is capable of cranking it up and troubling the batsmen. Lets face it, this bowling line up is only good in conditions where there is enough lateral movement. They can only hope for the Windies to implode. Cant really blame the batsmen for the failures.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 01, 2019, 10:56:34 AM
Buzz and Fattus have called it thou, we have to target the stumps more, we didn't really do that although they had some luck.

I know our bowlers don't like getting driven but we have to risk it to get wickets, there's enough movement in the track
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 01, 2019, 11:21:03 AM
We really have to face facts that this attack is crying out for Archer... someone with the ability to either break your toes or knock your head off.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: jamesisapayne on February 01, 2019, 11:23:20 AM
We really have to face facts that this attack is crying out for Archer... someone with the ability to either break your toes or knock your head off.

The same Archer that went for 20 in one over in the BB yesterday?

He looks a great talent and is certainly quick enough but can he bowl 15-20 overs a day on the spot?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Kulli on February 01, 2019, 11:43:33 AM
The same Archer that went for 20 in one over in the BB yesterday?

He looks a great talent and is certainly quick enough but can he bowl 15-20 overs a day on the spot?
Goes well enough for Sussex.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: mo_town on February 01, 2019, 11:46:00 AM
The same Archer that went for 20 in one over in the BB yesterday?

He looks a great talent and is certainly quick enough but can he bowl 15-20 overs a day on the spot?

He looks more like a limited overs specialist. I would be very surprised if he does well in Test Cricket. Who's the quickest English bowler currently in County Cricket? Anyone know?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Kulli on February 01, 2019, 11:49:12 AM
Would imagine Archer, 131 @23 is a very good record for a 'one day specialist'
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Buzz on February 01, 2019, 11:53:31 AM
On an uneven pitch you have to attack the stumps.
There are over 1000 test wickets between Broad and Anderson so you would think they would know. But they are still obsessed with the fourth stump line.
A little prediction...
Curran will be the pick of the bowlers today.
Stokes will bowl too short
Everyone will say how unlucky Broad and Anderson were not to take more wickets!
Moeen will bowl well.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: mo_town on February 01, 2019, 11:58:26 AM
On an uneven pitch you have to attack the stumps.
There are over 1000 test wickets between Broad and Anderson so you would think they would know. But they are still obsessed with the fourth stump line.
A little prediction...
Curran will be the pick of the bowlers today.
Stokes will bowl too short
Everyone will say how unlucky Broad and Anderson were not to take more wickets!
Moeen will bowl well.

Its funny how sometimes the best bowlers in the world tend not to do the basics right. This obsession of targeting the 4th stump has been raised in previous series as well. Wonder whats the reason behind it. Is it that tough for a bowler to change their line/lengths of attack? Is it the job of the bowling coach to provide that insight?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: LateBloomer on February 01, 2019, 11:59:32 AM
I think he has lots of potential to do well in Test cricket. I wouldnt write anyone off because they've gone for runs in t20, it has happened to the best inc Steyn & Anderson.

In the here and now England are in a world of trouble. The last time we won in West Indies (2003 or 2004 i think) Harmison, Jones et all rightly got praise for some fantastic fast bowling but it was Englands experienced middle order that provided gritty, ugly runs for them to bowl at. I can remember Thorpe and Butcher in particular wearing plenty on the gloves and body

Grit is not a word I associate with this current England team.

Time to put it right if they come out firing first session with the ball
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: cricketbadger on February 01, 2019, 12:02:56 PM
The same Archer that went for 20 in one over in the BB yesterday?

He looks a great talent and is certainly quick enough but can he bowl 15-20 overs a day on the spot?

I really wouldn't read too much into going for 20 in one over of a t20 match

Memory recalls a certain Stuart  Broad going for 36 in one once
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on February 01, 2019, 01:24:06 PM
Put it in the same spot and you will go for 20 in an over in T20.

Not that it's damaging potential Test cricketers, or anything...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on February 01, 2019, 02:22:08 PM
Woeful drop from Buttler, moreso that Broad is bowling out of his skin
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 01, 2019, 02:25:54 PM
Yep didn't seem that difficult  but with Broad bowling the way he is and the the uneven pitch creating doubt  it shouldn't be long before a wicket.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on February 01, 2019, 02:27:28 PM
Looks to be pitching it up this morning. Can't believe it took a whole session for them to realise
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Calzehbhoy on February 01, 2019, 02:30:36 PM
Thoroughly enjoyed the "ARGH, (No Swearing Please) OFF" that was clearly audible!

Broad must be furious!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: NT50 on February 01, 2019, 02:37:53 PM
I won't be asking Broad for the lottery numbers this week
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: goodarmcindy on February 01, 2019, 02:41:06 PM
I'm enjoying the running commentary from the West Indian crowd that the comms. mics are picking up
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 01, 2019, 02:55:46 PM
Stokes gets the first one doors open on that pitch
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on February 01, 2019, 03:34:49 PM
West Indies showing the benefit of playing off the new ball and cashing in now.

They should get a decent lead here - any lead on this wicket will be priceless
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: FattusCattus on February 01, 2019, 03:36:09 PM
Oh get the spinner on for a couple of overs for chrissakes! This is just a meandering seam-party that isn't helping us at all!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: FattusCattus on February 01, 2019, 03:36:47 PM
Tedious captaincy
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on February 01, 2019, 03:38:33 PM
So Curran's in the side basically for his slogging ability. His bowling is awful and Root clearly doesn't rate it at all.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 01, 2019, 04:42:10 PM
I have to say that Braithwaite may not be the prettiest but he is a proper old school test match opening batsman, that quite frankly England are crying out for.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Buzz on February 01, 2019, 04:44:32 PM
On an uneven pitch you have to attack the stumps.
There are over 1000 test wickets between Broad and Anderson so you would think they would know. But they are still obsessed with the fourth stump line.
A little prediction...
Curran will be the pick of the bowlers today.
Stokes will bowl too short
Everyone will say how unlucky Broad and Anderson were not to take more wickets!
Moeen will bowl well.
I am still standing by this... but Sam needs to bowl from the other end.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on February 01, 2019, 05:24:37 PM
Broady you beauty!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 01, 2019, 05:27:02 PM
Yep Broad shows why he's so vital to this England side
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Calzehbhoy on February 01, 2019, 06:36:01 PM
Anybody else getting bored of watching England bowl a leave alone 5th stump line?

Bowl. At. The. Stumps.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 01, 2019, 06:52:24 PM
New ball due after tea  will England take iit straight away reckon they will have to.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on February 01, 2019, 07:41:26 PM
Broad has had 98 catches dropped of his bowling as Buttler shelled another a few overs back
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: LateBloomer on February 01, 2019, 08:05:16 PM
Broad has had 98 catches dropped of his bowling as Buttler shelled another a few overs back

Ouch
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on February 01, 2019, 08:43:16 PM
Enjoying this from West Indies - the old fashioned grinding out an innings. Not the modern way of attack is the best form of defence which bairstow said in his interview

Even these two are grinding it out. Bravo going at a S/R of 20. Lead is already plenty on this wicket
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: mo_town on February 01, 2019, 08:43:43 PM
I am still standing by this... but Sam needs to bowl from the other end.

Actually Sam first needs to get bowled. He looks absolutely innocuous with gentle medium pace.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 01, 2019, 09:05:42 PM
Root doesn't want to bowl Curran similar to Rashid in the last test. The lead is already substantial and he don't trust him not to leak runs. Hence Jimmy, broad, stokes are doing a lot of bowling.

There hasn't been much swing to be fair for Anderson or Curran, seam but not much thru the air
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: golders on February 01, 2019, 09:07:23 PM
Curran is becoming a bit of a passenger, could do with Jofra Archer ASAP
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Buzz on February 01, 2019, 09:15:22 PM
Curran needs to bowl from the end that broad and stokes have bowled from
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Tailendfielder on February 01, 2019, 09:16:11 PM
I feel for Woakes, his quicker and taller. Looks like his gonna fade away from the England set up but he hasnt done a great deal wrong other than get injured. He hasnít publically moaned about it either like another squad member.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 01, 2019, 09:16:46 PM
Curran is becoming a bit of a passenger, could do with Jofra Archer ASAP

Or Stone on these wickets England need a genuine quick
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: golders on February 01, 2019, 09:16:56 PM
Yes he will be able to put his height to good effect to extract that invariable bounce...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: mo_town on February 01, 2019, 09:20:10 PM
Root doesn't want to bowl Curran similar to Rashid in the last test. The lead is already substantial and he don't trust him not to leak runs. Hence Jimmy, broad, stokes are doing a lot of bowling.

There hasn't been much swing to be fair for Anderson or Curran, seam but not much thru the air

Thats the problem with England. They are looking to contain instead of attacking to create chances. You need to make the batsmen play as many balls as possible on a bad pitch.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on February 01, 2019, 09:31:48 PM
Enjoying this from West Indies - the old fashioned grinding out an innings. Not the modern way of attack is the best form of defence which bairstow said in his interview

Even these two are grinding it out. Bravo going at a S/R of 20. Lead is already plenty on this wicket

 Very impressed overall with WI tactics and application. They are playing test cricket and making this englsnd side look like mugs. To be clear, I believe this England side to be the more Ďtalentedí.. just arenít really red ball as they lack application and the will to just bat long and forget about rotsringnstrike, pressure on bowlers and all that one day crap
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on February 01, 2019, 09:32:36 PM
Curran needs to bowl from the end that broad and stokes have bowled from

Heís crap. Dilly dobber. Shouldnít be there
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: alexhilly1492 on February 01, 2019, 09:35:56 PM
Here we go...

White ball biffers blah blah medium pace rubbish blah blah  England are crap blah blah bring back boycott blah blah not test cricket, too much white ball

We get it, good god post something else
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on February 01, 2019, 09:49:21 PM
Here we go...

White ball biffers blah blah medium pace rubbish blah blah  England are crap blah blah bring back boycott blah blah not test cricket, too much white ball

We get it, good god post something else

So itís ok for you to say how great all the hitting is time after time when it comes off but wo betide anyone actually challenge this modern style in tests..

Why is it so hard to actually allow others a POV ? Or is it because you fall for the hype about postiive cricket.. aggressive cricket.. brand of cricket ..

Either way, Iím not insulting you am I?? Iím stating an opinion. If thatís different from you (it is as you like your hitting)  then fine but there is no need to be rude. Or is this forum yet again about conforming or you get down shouted ?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: alexhilly1492 on February 01, 2019, 09:53:18 PM
No I actually think England have got it wrong this series and not bedded in enough... but Iím also aware enough to know when the stacking style is needed rather than just moaning how white ball cricket is ruining English cricket constantly
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on February 01, 2019, 10:07:06 PM
No I actually think England have got it wrong this series and not bedded in enough... but Iím also aware enough to know when the stacking style is needed rather than just moaning how white ball cricket is ruining English cricket constantly

And at what point in the last two tests was this style needed ? Nothing wrong with attacking cricket as itís needed in tests just as much as Ďboringí cricket but you have to have a line up capable and willing to do both. England donít
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 01, 2019, 10:11:22 PM
You got to credit the West Indies again, they are batting with application old Skool and holding their catches.

We have had a good 9 months and are coming unstuck here but you cannot fault the effort today.we could and should of had them all out but for some missed catches.

It's not all doom and gloom as long as we learn. Have to say the windies that have turned up this last test match and a half have surprised me how good they are.

Are they really eighth is the rankings..
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on February 01, 2019, 10:37:30 PM
Rootís been lucky winning a lot of tosses, this is the real test when theyíre losing key tosses.

Thought broad was honest in his interview and admitted that England have had their fair share of luck in the last 9 months and now itís going the other way.

England have not learnt from the first test about application and West Indies keep showing them the way to do it.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SOULMAN1012 on February 02, 2019, 03:10:49 PM
Decent start to day 3 with a couple of wickets. Really donít want this lead being anymore than 150 to have any kind of chance

Sorry if I missed it by why is Foakes not keeping?? Only able to watch highlights as donít have sky cricket
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: e4sby on February 02, 2019, 03:14:14 PM
Decent start to day 3 with a couple of wickets. Really donít want this lead being anymore than 150 to have any kind of chance

Sorry if I missed it by why is Foakes not keeping?? Only able to watch highlights as donít have sky cricket

Badly bruised hand, not heard of an update from today.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Calzehbhoy on February 02, 2019, 03:25:47 PM
Decent start to day 3 with a couple of wickets. Really donít want this lead being anymore than 150 to have any kind of chance

Sorry if I missed it by why is Foakes not keeping?? Only able to watch highlights as donít have sky cricket

Can watch it free on your phone @SOULMAN1012

https://www.mobilecric.com (https://www.mobilecric.com)
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on February 02, 2019, 03:25:58 PM
Flashbacks of Lara with Bravo dancing down the wicket to Ali and smashing him over his head
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: smilley792 on February 02, 2019, 03:35:34 PM
Cricket fans of tests  -ďthese batsman have no patience, t20 cricket is ruining the sportĒ


Darren bravo - ďhold my beer...... for a whileĒ

3rd slowest fifty in test match history!!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Calzehbhoy on February 02, 2019, 03:50:35 PM
Really looking forward to watching these two bat. So, so hope they perform well and we can get a half settled 1,2,3 from this series.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on February 02, 2019, 05:23:44 PM
Anyone going to defend that from Burns ?? Bloody dire given batting time is needed.

Or is that too negative and should we be wacking like itís a power play and he was just Ďunluckyí
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: billyb on February 02, 2019, 05:30:48 PM
It was just a poor shot.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on February 02, 2019, 05:51:12 PM
It was just a poor shot.

Same with Bairstow I suppose ? Just unlucky ?

Or was it reckless, on the up and too aggressive ?!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: joeljonno on February 02, 2019, 05:52:43 PM
Three Joseph's.

Joseph bowling to Root and Denly.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: billyb on February 02, 2019, 05:53:46 PM
That is a textbook Bairstow dismissal. Denly is slowing settling in. Long way back from here, but it is great to see a good West Indies side in the making.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on February 02, 2019, 05:56:09 PM
Don't massively mind Burns playing the shot, but that close and no control over the height is unimpressive to say the least. Bairstow getting castled was predictable, to say the least.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: smilley792 on February 02, 2019, 06:09:24 PM
We are poor this tour.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on February 02, 2019, 06:13:27 PM
Root got a decent ball with a bit of nip in sadly.

Need some crease occupation and guts here.

Fair play to joseph for playing today too
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: kaustav on February 02, 2019, 06:20:48 PM
Joseph has a lot of heart.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on February 02, 2019, 06:20:48 PM
Crumbling here 59-4
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on February 02, 2019, 06:28:47 PM
Joseph has a lot of heart.

Making stokes look like a fool too.. holder also doing the same to buttler
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: smilley792 on February 02, 2019, 06:30:39 PM
Windows ice attack just look like there putting it in much better areas than England ever did.



Innings defeat?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on February 02, 2019, 06:40:00 PM
Windows ice attack just look like there putting it in much better areas than England ever did.



Innings defeat?

Just prepare to bowl good line and length ball after ball.

Nah, only 44 runs needed so WI probably going to have to chase 75-125 on day 4/5
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Kulli on February 02, 2019, 06:41:55 PM
Havenít out batters been at fault as much of not more than the bowlers, some really poor dismissals.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: billyb on February 02, 2019, 06:45:45 PM
I'd be almost tempted to take the entire England batting line-up plus 10 'nearly' players somewhere for two weeks and have an old fashioned trial for spots. Our top order is broken.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: kaustav on February 02, 2019, 06:48:45 PM
Windows ice attack just look like there putting it in much better areas than England ever did.



Innings defeat?

My windows have been under a serious ice attack up here for the last one week.

No innings defeat. I think this pair will do a nice fight back.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on February 02, 2019, 07:20:37 PM
Shower of crap

Ill  discipline.. loss of head.. jut wasnít content to occupy the crease again
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 02, 2019, 07:21:13 PM
OMG!! What is Stokes doing! And he walks off shaking his head replaying the shot like he is unlucky and should just have played it better. What about not play it at all!!!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on February 02, 2019, 07:24:32 PM
Pathetic, all of them
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: t2ylo on February 02, 2019, 07:24:44 PM
FFS - make it stop
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 02, 2019, 07:30:57 PM
Who was saying no innings defeat??
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: smilley792 on February 02, 2019, 07:31:53 PM
23 behind, 4 wickets left, 2 of them being broad and Anderson, serious tail Enders, and 1 of those being the struggling foakes.


Innings defeat still on. But even if we get the 23, I doubt we will give them much more than a few runs to chase.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Northern monkey on February 02, 2019, 07:32:47 PM
Oh mo!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: smilley792 on February 02, 2019, 07:33:12 PM
Just prepare to bowl good line and length ball after ball.

Nah, only 44 runs needed so WI probably going to have to chase 75-125 on day 4/5

75-125 to chase? Your not usually the optimistic one among use adie.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: golders on February 02, 2019, 07:33:29 PM
We are bang average
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on February 02, 2019, 07:33:45 PM
Who was saying no innings defeat??

Chris May have called this right

This is disgraceful.. Ill discipline, lack of fight, lack of application and lack of willingness to not just play one day mode stuff..

Come on Alex, is this really the style that you want to see or an actual mix of a top order who bat properly then a middle order to the game away.. or is it one day mode all day long ?   They are literlaly relying on Ďcoming offí and flat tracks to win
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on February 02, 2019, 07:34:18 PM
75-125 to chase? Your not usually the optimistic one among use adie.

Lol

I actually thought buttler and stokes might do ok tbh
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on February 02, 2019, 07:35:17 PM
We are bang average

You are very kind to this team

Petition to allow swearing in this thread
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: golders on February 02, 2019, 07:38:14 PM
Time for a root and branch review of England cricket.

Giles out!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Northern monkey on February 02, 2019, 07:39:14 PM
Umpire tapping in the wickets  with foakes bat,,,, most use itís had
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on February 02, 2019, 07:43:08 PM
Time for a root and branch review of England cricket.

Giles out!

No point doing a review unless they genuinely want to put red ball back as priority from pro to amateur games. Which we kmow they wonít do.

There is no one to replace this lot sadly, as we see in the lions.. all just more one day style players
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: smilley792 on February 02, 2019, 07:50:18 PM
Lol

I actually thought buttler and stokes might do ok tbh


Buttler giving it ago.


Also not ignoring your private message, it says you barred me from sending you them, so hard to reply.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: mo_town on February 02, 2019, 07:57:24 PM
This is too painful to watch. What is wrong with this England batting lineup?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on February 02, 2019, 07:58:18 PM
Solidarity to all that have travelled for this abject performance
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: FattusCattus on February 02, 2019, 07:59:25 PM
Well played WI - more guts, skill and desire than us, fully deserve  a series win.

A large proportion of our team need to take a good, hard look at themselves.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on February 02, 2019, 08:00:04 PM
Whatever you do don't say this is anything to do with T20 greed.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: jamielsn15 on February 02, 2019, 08:05:07 PM
I wonder if Jimmy recounts the current dressing room of the days when he had strauss, cook, trott, kp, bell, and collingwood and fondly reminiscences of having his feet up in the dressing room for days, not hours...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Northern monkey on February 02, 2019, 08:06:48 PM
This is beyond garbage!!!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 02, 2019, 08:09:00 PM
Quite simply Windies have been miles better than us in every department and fully deserved this.

Properly need to stop the excuses and wise up to what is going on and our genuine inability to bat long with patience in tough situations.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: FattusCattus on February 02, 2019, 08:14:13 PM
I wonder about what Bayliss is saying to the batters?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 02, 2019, 08:15:46 PM
I wonder about what Bayliss is saying to the batters?

I wonder about Ramprakash?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 02, 2019, 08:19:02 PM
We were bowled out in 254 balls, just 38 more than Bravo faced on his own!!!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: smilley792 on February 02, 2019, 08:19:25 PM
Carberry, robson, Lyth, Weíre they really worse than what weíve had recently?

Even hales???
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 02, 2019, 08:23:01 PM
Outplayed by a better team away from home. So far that's not a disaster. the way we capitulate thou is a problem and I've been boring everyone on here about our batting for ages. The middle order have bailed us out time and again and in England our bowlers are always in the game. Now we have been shown up in this series

Windies have shown more grit and skill then us, extra pace makes a difference too on these wickets.

What to do I wonder?

Compton on BBC has our best line up as
Burns
Jennings
Denly
Root and then butler , Bairstow, stokes...

So it's not like there are loads of options for alternative players.

I think myself I'd like to see an honest post match assessment from Root and Bayliss, take nothing from the Windies and have some ideas how we can improve....
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 02, 2019, 08:25:35 PM
Carberry, robson, Lyth, Weíre they really worse than what weíve had recently?

Even hales???

Stoneman I think got a raw deal I think, and perhaps Malan. I'm pretty sure Stoneman is younger than Denly too so age should not come into it.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on February 02, 2019, 08:25:51 PM
They've all fared about the same? Which suggests the issue lies somewhere deeper?

No?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Northern monkey on February 02, 2019, 08:26:51 PM
The windies have taken the pee out of England full stop
Itís beyond embarrassing
Sorry shoot me down etc, but just pure gutless muppets
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on February 02, 2019, 08:28:07 PM
If Stokes, Bairstow and Buttler are your 5, 6 and 7, you have to leave out Foakes or a bowler.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Northern monkey on February 02, 2019, 08:29:01 PM
You know what,,,, send em all back home,, bar jimmy
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: smilley792 on February 02, 2019, 08:36:28 PM
Finish it with a six! Big cross bat over mid wicket!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: billyb on February 02, 2019, 08:44:57 PM
Some interesting thoughts on here.

I too wonder if Malan, Vince & Stoneman were really that bad. With Vince it always felt like he was SO close to being brilliant. Is that better than what we have now?

If only Hameed hadn't got injured.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SOULMAN1012 on February 02, 2019, 08:46:59 PM
Not a lot that can be said really about this match in some ways itís even worse than the last test. As for what, why or how we get better I donít know. We have played good cricket by being positive over the last 12 months but we donít seem to have anyone that an innings can be built around or any players that want to really value there wicket.

Bowling wise we need a miracle to appear to replace Anderson & Broad in the next 12/18months as that cupboard looks as bleak as our top order batting stocks at the moment full of military medium stuff and no Xfactor bowling expect maybe Archer
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: jonny77 on February 02, 2019, 08:50:11 PM
Not a lot you can change in personel for the next match. I'd maybe drop Curran for Woakes, as don't feel these are his conditions. But in terms of the batting, it's down to the same blokes to sort it out, as there aren't really any alternatives out there. Application really when all said and done as they've got talent, but take nothing away from the Windies as they've performed very very well.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on February 02, 2019, 08:58:48 PM
Surely the penny will drop for Root/Bayliss anc Ed Smith that these project players are gonna get the job done. We arenít good enough to be fielding 3 wicket keepers or Curran who actually offers nothing.

Iíve said previously I like having a pure keeper, but Iíd unfortunately drop him and give the gloves back to Bairstow

Burns
Jennings
Denly
Root
Buttler
Bairstow (w/k)
Stokes
Moeen
Woakes
Broad
Anderson

This isnít by any means my ideal side but handicapped by the players in the Caribbean. Ahead of the Ashes Iíd only have Root, Stokes and Anderson as locked in. The rest of the positions are fair game for anyone in form.

Lastly we may well have ditched Ian Bell too soon...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on February 02, 2019, 09:11:41 PM
Root
ďWe will learn from thisĒ

Baylis
Was this a good wicket? ďIíll leave that to the match refereeĒ.. so youíre basically blaming the wicket then you clown
ď we need to learn from thisĒ.. this has been happening for 3-4 years now !!

No honesty yet again
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on February 02, 2019, 09:14:30 PM
Well done to West Indies. Fantastic application and fight. Totally hammered England

Bravo nearly batted longer himself than the entire England side in the 2nd innings
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on February 02, 2019, 09:15:41 PM
Root
ďWe will learn from thisĒ

Baylis
Was this a good wicket? ďIíll leave that to the match refereeĒ.. so youíre basically blaming the wicket then you clown
ď we need to learn from thisĒ.. this has been happening for 3-4 years now !!

No honesty yet again

Easier to blame the pitch. Bet theyíll go back to the excuse of lack of preparation too

Simple - no mental application and too many odi sloggers
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on February 02, 2019, 09:17:03 PM
Burns - deserves a run but doesnít look upto it
Space
Space
Root
Buttler (seems to be batting ok)
Foakes (best gloveman and deserves a run)
Woakes (avg the same or more than stokes remember with bat/ball
Stokes
Moeen
Broad
Anderson

Bairstow is shocking now.. avg 26 is it over 12-18 months and 32 overall.. plays the same ODI method regardless.. heís now under study to Foakes
Curran isnít good enough so send him packing
Woakes is 3rd best seamer so heís in. His batting and bowling is on par with stokes and stokes isnít performing so heís either dropped or sent in down the order rather than continuing to pretend heís a top six bat

Quite simply. The lions are all one day hitters.. clarke, duckett Etc Etc so who in county cricket is known to bat long ?? Mitchell ?? Whoever it is, get them in

Mentality change needed and every player in the top 7 told to bat long, screw SR etc.. just occupy the crease
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Buzz on February 02, 2019, 09:19:04 PM
The top order batting has been awful for too long and finally we have been found out.

The issue is that the problems stem from the administration trying to kill the championship. This isn't going to change until there is huge change at the ECB.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: billyb on February 02, 2019, 09:26:53 PM
Gary Ballance still has an average of 37.45 in test cricket, behind only Ben Foakes and Joe Root in the current crop of players.  :D


Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: jonny77 on February 02, 2019, 09:36:22 PM
Burns - deserves a run but doesnít look upto it
Space
Space
Root
Buttler (seems to be batting ok)
Foakes (best gloveman and deserves a run)
Woakes (avg the same or more than stokes remember with bat/ball
Stokes
Moeen
Broad
Anderson

Bairstow is shocking now.. avg 26 is it over 12-18 months and 32 overall.. plays the same ODI method regardless.. heís now under study to Foakes
Curran isnít good enough so send him packing
Woakes is 3rd best seamer so heís in. His batting and bowling is on par with stokes and stokes isnít performing so heís either dropped or sent in down the order rather than continuing to pretend heís a top six bat

Quite simply. The lions are all one day hitters.. clarke, duckett Etc Etc so who in county cricket is known to bat long ?? Mitchell ?? Whoever it is, get them in

Mentality change needed and every player in the top 7 told to bat long, screw SR etc.. just occupy the crease

Bloody hell mate, hope someone's taken your shoelaces out!  :o

So you're batting Foakes at 6 above Stokes and saying he's a better bat than Bairstow???! Big shout that. I like Foakes but Bairstow was the top scoring England bat in this test and did nothing wrong with the gloves, would be harsh to drop him. Also, not sure Basylis blamed the pitch, he did acknowledge that they'd underperformed but nobody could say that pitch was great. (I'm not using that as an excuse tho).

Harsh on Curran too. Did you think he wasn't good enough  when he was saving us against India? He's young and conditions haven't suited him, wrong selection that's all. Doesn't mean be should be written off IMO.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: jamferg on February 02, 2019, 09:44:06 PM
Iím a Sheffield lad but Root is not a captain in any sense .. let him Bat where he wants .. find a new selection team  but his captaincy is woeful
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 02, 2019, 09:47:05 PM
Yes Curran has a big future but probably as the last seamer, he needs swing and there's not much of it in the last two tests. He's only medium pace so needs movement thru the air.. There's potential with the bat for him maybe more than his bowling

The tricky thing is what Robert Croft  is saying now on BBC, will they continue to pick 3 keepers?

I think Foakes is a good enough bat, backed up by good FC figures to show he should be keeping.

But do England need to decide on one of them to get another bowler or batter in?  That's the tough question.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on February 02, 2019, 09:48:52 PM
We seem to have blurred the lines between aggressive batting and reckless batting. When Australia rules the scene back between the 90s-00s they where aggressive but they was structure to their batting. Hayden, Ponting and Gilchrist in particular devastating but they could dig in and bat time when needed.

We've decided come hell or high water we are gonna smash it regardless of the conditions or the opponents bowling abilities. You have to be able to wind you neck in and bat time. It's not possible to pin the ears back and blast it every bloody time
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on February 02, 2019, 09:52:01 PM

The tricky thing is what Robert Croft  is saying now on BBC, will they continue to pick 3 keepers?

I think Foakes is a good enough bat, backed up by good FC figures to show he should be keeping.

Since Root became captain Moeen's averaging 23, so what's more ridiculous is that Foakes ended up at 8 in the this series. In fact Moeen hasn't scored a century since 2016.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on February 02, 2019, 09:57:25 PM
Bloody hell mate, hope someone's taken your shoelaces out!  :o

So you're batting Foakes at 6 above Stokes and saying he's a better bat than Bairstow???! Big shout that. I like Foakes but Bairstow was the top scoring England bat in this test and did nothing wrong with the gloves, would be harsh to drop him. Also, not sure Basylis blamed the pitch, he did acknowledge that they'd underperformed but nobody could say that pitch was great. (I'm not using that as an excuse tho).

Harsh on Curran too. Did you think he wasn't good enough  when he was saving us against India? He's young and conditions haven't suited him, wrong selection that's all. Doesn't mean be should be written off IMO.

Bairstow avg 32 .. 26 over the last 12-@8 months., thatís over rated.. plus, heís playing the same innings each game.. go out and attack.. heís showing no willingness to adapt.. Foakes doesnít deserve to be dropped as heís only just in and avg more than Bairstow.. why is Bairstow undroppabke ??

Curran.. is he one of the best 3 seam bowlers ?? No
Is he the best all rounder ? No
So heís dropped too

Stokes.. avg circa 25 over the last 12-18 months.. Foakes high 30ís .. also, Stokes isnít showing application etc.. drop him down the order.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 02, 2019, 10:01:33 PM
Iím a Sheffield lad but Root is not a captain in any sense .. let him Bat where he wants .. find a new selection team  but his captaincy is woeful

THIS!!

Everything stems from the captain, simple as that. Brand of cricket rubbish, awful selection, bad fields as well etc.....

Root is not a captain, he's our best batsman. No disgrace in not being a good captain, it's just not for some people.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: LateBloomer on February 02, 2019, 10:02:30 PM
Im not sure why people keep banging on about 3 keepers. Ive only ever seen one man wearing the gloves for England. Buttler and Bairstow are playing as BATSMEN. And should be judged as such. If they aren't performing with the bat and a replacement is banging the door down they go, simple as that

Piss poor by England again with the bat.



Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on February 02, 2019, 10:06:34 PM
Recall Ian Bell f*** it
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: jonny77 on February 02, 2019, 10:16:47 PM
Bairstow avg 32 .. 26 over the last 12-@8 months., thatís over rated.. plus, heís playing the same innings each game.. go out and attack.. heís showing no willingness to adapt.. Foakes doesnít deserve to be dropped as heís only just in and avg more than Bairstow.. why is Bairstow undroppabke ??

Curran.. is he one of the best 3 seam bowlers ?? No
Is he the best all rounder ? No
So heís dropped too

Stokes.. avg circa 25 over the last 12-18 months.. Foakes high 30ís .. also, Stokes isnít showing application etc.. drop him down the order.


Not saying he's undroppable but he outscored every other English batsmen this test, does that not count for anything?! Not sure we should be keeping anyone in just because they've only just entered they side either. I'd play them both next test as we don't have any other batting options, as you've just pointed out by dropping Bairstow and Denley then leaving a space at 2 and 3.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: billyb on February 02, 2019, 10:24:29 PM
For me, Woakes comes in, and Curran is dropped. Curran is going to be a really good player for us in the future, but it isn't quite his time just yet. He is a bit of a luxury pick right now. Woakes is a more skilled, consistent bowler and a solid batsman, with a recent test 100.

I see the argument for dropping Foakes in the terms of balance, but he has recently scored runs and looks fluent at the moment. Given our predicament, I don't think we can lose him.

I'm a massive fan of Bairstow, but he isn't a No.3, is he? So he has to move down the order.

Root is our star batsman, but isn't producing runs of late, and his captaincy needs to be seriously questioned. Since playing India at Lords, Root averages 29.05. That isn't good enough for our star man. His captaincy isn't good enough to make that drop acceptable. His insistence on batting 4 also creates big problems with the batting order. Previously he had been able to say he was scoring runs at 4- but now he isn't. I would take the captaincy off him, and put him at 3. He can be vice-Captain (smooth transition over), but tell him we need him to break Cook's records, to fight Kohli and Williamson for acclaim. In our current situation, him scoring runs is vital.

Buttler becomes the captain, dumping Root's aggressive Test cricket philosophy. That in itself is virtually an oxymoron. Nice idea, but it didn't work. The coach's job comes in to question too. A big problem with Root's captaincy is that he isn't getting the most out of a brilliantly talented group of players, almost like Mourinho at United. That isn't good enough, and so it is time for him to focus on his batting.

The side now looks much better.

You've got our best 4 seam bowlers, a good spinner and then Root/Denly to help. That is plenty of bowling.
You've given Buttler responsibility in terms of captaincy, and freed Root to be a world-beater. Bairstow can now do what he does best against a more tired attack. Woakes, Stokes and Ali give plenty of depth to the batting. We have our best keeper who is a very good bat too.

Burns
Denly
Root (VC)
Buttler (C)
Bairstow
Foakes (WK)
Stokes
Woakes
Ali
Broad
Anderson



Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: hammersjr on February 02, 2019, 10:39:23 PM
Letís face it we werenít prepared for the windies to be as good as they are and we also werenít prepared for those conditons, the extra pace that the Caribbean and Australia has we have historically struggled in. If this was a home series for us it would be a completely different story but the fact is most likely any team we fielded would struggle out there right now.

I personally do get frustrated that we end up hammering our team after only two test matches yet weíve won against India and Sri Lanka comfortably in our last two series. Thatís what I canít understand it when people call for half of the team to be binned, especially without replacements whoíd be any better.

Jennings, Bairstow and Foakes all scored hundreds against Sri Lanka yet according to some they need to go completely, Root binned as captain but as mentioned heís just captained the team to two comfortable series wins, then thereís Curran who got man of the series against India in the summer but heís not good enough now either?! Is it just too much to support the guys on the field?!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: cricketbadger on February 02, 2019, 10:43:40 PM
Bairstow avg 32 .. 26 over the last 12-@8 months., thatís over rated.. plus, heís playing the same innings each game.. go out and attack.. heís showing no willingness to adapt.. Foakes doesnít deserve to be dropped as heís only just in and avg more than Bairstow.. why is Bairstow undroppabke ??

Curran.. is he one of the best 3 seam bowlers ?? No
Is he the best all rounder ? No
So heís dropped too

Stokes.. avg circa 25 over the last 12-18 months.. Foakes high 30ís .. also, Stokes isnít showing application etc.. drop him down the order.

I believe he is undroppable in this side and amongst these other batsmen because he simply has more ability than the majority of them.
Yes makes mistakes, but everyone does.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: billyb on February 02, 2019, 10:50:32 PM
I personally do get frustrated that we end up hammering our team after only two test matches yet weíve won against India and Sri Lanka comfortably in our last two series. Thatís what I canít understand it when people call for half of the team to be binned, especially without replacements whoíd be any better.

Jennings, Bairstow and Foakes all scored hundreds against Sri Lanka yet according to some they need to go completely, Root binned as captain but as mentioned heís just captained the team to two comfortable series wins, then thereís Curran who got man of the series against India in the summer but heís not good enough now either?! Is it just too much to support the guys on the field?!

Jennings is a good batsman in the subcontinent, but has repeatedly struggled against pace. The only players with a worse average than him (who've played more than two tests) are Westley and Vince. That is poor. He does a good job in Asia though! I don't think Bairstow or Foakes should be dropped. They make our strongest 11 at the moment, even if Bairstow is out of form/getting out in aggravating ways.

Curran is going to be a really good player for us, but he hasn't bowled well enough to keep his place in the next test. For that reason, Woakes- with more experience and guile- comes in. Curran isn't being kicked to Timbuktu- he'll be around the group, and will learn from this experience. He could be in our best side in the Ashes, who knows?

As for Root's captaincy, he just isn't scoring the runs and isn't getting the best out of his players. He should be vice-captain, still in the leadership group... but we need his runs more than anything else.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: hammersjr on February 02, 2019, 11:05:28 PM
Jennings is a good batsman in the subcontinent, but has repeatedly struggled against pace. The only players with a worse average than him (who've played more than two tests) are Westley and Vince. That is poor. He does a good job in Asia though! I don't think Bairstow or Foakes should be dropped. They make our strongest 11 at the moment, even if Bairstow is out of form/getting out in aggravating ways.

Curran is going to be a really good player for us, but he hasn't bowled well enough to keep his place in the next test. For that reason, Woakes- with more experience and guile- comes in. Curran isn't being kicked to Timbuktu- he'll be around the group, and will learn from this experience. He could be in our best side in the Ashes, who knows?

As for Root's captaincy, he just isn't scoring the runs and isn't getting the best out of his players. He should be vice-captain, still in the leadership group... but we need his runs more than anything else.

I agree with you about Jennings but I donít see Denly scoring any more runs than he would have in this series. For sure our opener when in Asia but who replaces him in other conditions should be the biggest question. Also think Curran isnít suited to these conditions but once Olly Stone went down injured I donít see a better alternative, Woakes pitches it up and swings it at 85 max, not someone who can bang it in at 90 like the Windies have.

Disagree about Root, heís got out unluckily a few times and have been outplayed by the better team in two tests but we shouldnít make a knee jerk reaction to get rid of him, are we sure someone else could do better is my question.

Anyways whoíd be a selector/coach/captain! Much easier on here for sure.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: jonny77 on February 02, 2019, 11:41:24 PM
Taking the captaincy of Root is way too much of a knee jerk reaction, especially suggesting to give it to Butler. Surely if you were giving it to someone to provide more grit and determination to bat time, this wouldn't fit with Butlers natural tendency to be aggressive? This isn't solely down to any single player, they have to take responsibility as as group and improve, simple as that in my view.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: billyb on February 03, 2019, 12:01:39 AM
I'd love to know the real story from within the England camp.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on February 03, 2019, 01:28:49 AM
Im not sure why people keep banging on about 3 keepers. Ive only ever seen one man wearing the gloves for England. Buttler and Bairstow are playing as BATSMEN. And should be judged as such. If they aren't performing with the bat and a replacement is banging the door down they go, simple as that


Totally agree with this.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on February 03, 2019, 09:00:51 AM
How many innings will some of these batsmen play in first-class  - *cough* 'red ball' - cricket between now and the Ashes series?   

Not many.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: jamielsn15 on February 03, 2019, 09:40:01 AM
Sadly too many 'jack of all trades and masters of none...' It shouldn't be knee jerk, but the fact is total inning collapses are now a regular occurence. It's lack of discipline amd a belief that they can hit out of pressure, as per the odi team.

That said, it should be made clear to county and lions players that form may well get you an ashes call up.  I don't care if the player is 18 or 40.

If they underestimated the Windies team, that's unforgivable. It's test match cricket and they're professional sportsmen. But it is great to see a Windies team competing. I don't quite remember 84, but the Gatting Marshall 86 tour onwards i do. Would love to see a Windies team that can compete around the world.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 03, 2019, 09:45:56 AM
For me, Woakes comes in, and Curran is dropped. Curran is going to be a really good player for us in the future, but it isn't quite his time just yet. He is a bit of a luxury pick right now. Woakes is a more skilled, consistent bowler and a solid batsman, with a recent test 100.

I see the argument for dropping Foakes in the terms of balance, but he has recently scored runs and looks fluent at the moment. Given our predicament, I don't think we can lose him.

I'm a massive fan of Bairstow, but he isn't a No.3, is he? So he has to move down the order.

Root is our star batsman, but isn't producing runs of late, and his captaincy needs to be seriously questioned. Since playing India at Lords, Root averages 29.05. That isn't good enough for our star man. His captaincy isn't good enough to make that drop acceptable. His insistence on batting 4 also creates big problems with the batting order. Previously he had been able to say he was scoring runs at 4- but now he isn't. I would take the captaincy off him, and put him at 3. He can be vice-Captain (smooth transition over), but tell him we need him to break Cook's records, to fight Kohli and Williamson for acclaim. In our current situation, him scoring runs is vital.

Buttler becomes the captain, dumping Root's aggressive Test cricket philosophy. That in itself is virtually an oxymoron. Nice idea, but it didn't work. The coach's job comes in to question too. A big problem with Root's captaincy is that he isn't getting the most out of a brilliantly talented group of players, almost like Mourinho at United. That isn't good enough, and so it is time for him to focus on his batting.

The side now looks much better.

You've got our best 4 seam bowlers, a good spinner and then Root/Denly to help. That is plenty of bowling.
You've given Buttler responsibility in terms of captaincy, and freed Root to be a world-beater. Bairstow can now do what he does best against a more tired attack. Woakes, Stokes and Ali give plenty of depth to the batting. We have our best keeper who is a very good bat too.

Burns
Denly
Root (VC)
Buttler (C)
Bairstow
Foakes (WK)
Stokes
Woakes
Ali
Broad
Anderson

Yep Woakes his consistent  outside the UK consistent at averaging 60 runs per wicket
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on February 03, 2019, 10:36:48 AM
I do so love the irrational hatred shown toward Bairstow here. He was the only so called specialist to make double figures in the first knock a d was batting three after keeping 110 overs in the second. Yet Buttler did nowt (apart from nicking off charging down the pitch) and should be made captain. Hilarious!!!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 03, 2019, 10:43:15 AM
Yep Woakes his consistent  outside the UK consistent at averaging 60 runs per wicket

Woakes is not a world beater Alan but if you look at our team do we need him as a reliable seamer who can bat lower down?
We need someone who can bang out a length consistently.

He was not fit for the last match but on the basis he is fit....Anderson, broad and stokes are getting bowled into the ground by Root.....that cannot continue.

It would mean we only play one spinner, but would it help the team long term for most of the conditions we face?

Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 03, 2019, 10:50:42 AM
Quote from Jason Holder after the game..... The ending the last year badly bit he talks about is the big series defeats against India and Bangladesh, including 2 innings defeats.

"The way we ended last year was a bit daunting, a bit disappointing, everybody wanted to turn things around so credit to the boys for the way they fought back.

"The guys had a long hard talk in the dressing room and it was something that was really needed to get some honesty in the dressing room."

Root and Baylis can bang on in interviews but I have absolutely no belief that any of the batters or staff know or maybe care or are asking themselves these sort of questions.

Otherwise it wouldn't keep on happening! That's the real problem I have with it.

Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 03, 2019, 12:54:28 PM
How many innings will some of these batsmen play in first-class  - *cough* 'red ball' - cricket between now and the Ashes series?   

Not many.

Well....... let's see....

England schedule before the Ashes is as follows -

May vs Pakistan
5: T20 international, Cardiff
8: First ODI, Oval
11: Second ODI, Southampton
14: Third ODI, Bristol
17: Fourth ODI, Trent Bridge (day/night)
19: Fifth ODI, Headingley

World Cup: 30 May - 14 July

Only Test vs Ireland
24-27 July, Four-day Test, Lord's

Then overlay that with the CC rounds before the Ireland test -
Friday, April 5
Thursday, April 11
Tuesday, May 14
Monday, May 20
Monday, May 27
Monday, June 3
Sunday, June 9
Monday, June 10
Monday, June 17
Monday, June 24
Sunday, June 30
Sunday, July 7
Saturday, July 13

Obviously not everyone plays every date but that is 13 weeks of games to stake a claim in the side, because in theory if we do well in the World Cup it's conceivable that the guys that play white ball won't hit another red ball after the Windies tour till the Ireland test!!!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on February 03, 2019, 01:29:12 PM
Itís time Baylis gives up the test match coaching. Heís already in favour of two coaches and heís a white ball specialist
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: LateBloomer on February 03, 2019, 01:41:12 PM
Itís time Baylis gives up the test match coaching. Heís already in favour of two coaches and heís a white ball specialist

Hes already confirmed to be leaving both when his contract is up at the end of the summer so cant see anything changing before then

Test cricket has been very hit and miss but he has taken Englands 50 over team to unprecedented levels so should  be applauded for that. A world cup win would be nice to go out on
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: billyb on February 03, 2019, 01:42:44 PM
I do so love the irrational hatred shown toward Bairstow here. He was the only so called specialist to make double figures in the first knock a d was batting three after keeping 110 overs in the second. Yet Buttler did nowt (apart from nicking off charging down the pitch) and should be made captain. Hilarious!!!

Bairstow is great, he's my favourite England player, but his technique isn't tight enough to be a number 3. At the same time, who (other than Root's) is tight enough? He scored a great 100 there though in SL. Cook was also questioning Bairstow at 3 yesterday. I chose Buttler as Captain because he is the vice-captain, no other reason. Out of interest, who was the last bowler to hold the test captaincy for England? I wonder if there are other strong leaders in the group. Maybe Root is the only option? Who knows.

Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 03, 2019, 01:51:21 PM
Bairstow is great, he's my favourite England player, but his technique isn't tight enough to be a number 3. At the same time, who (other than Root's) is tight enough? He scored a great 100 there though in SL. Cook was also questioning Bairstow at 3 yesterday. I chose Buttler as Captain because he is the vice-captain, no other reason. Out of interest, who was the last bowler to hold the test captaincy for England? I wonder if there are other strong leaders in the group. Maybe Root is the only option? Who knows.



Yes Bairstow is one of our best even thou like the others his average is going down, there's no point throwing the baby out with the bath water, mostly we have the best players playing.

He's too high at 3, the best thing Root can do for this team is bat 3 himself, then the middle order players slot in and fit better.

Root is not a captain either not everyone who takes that on sees an upturn in their own batting, I don't think Root suits captaincy myself.England need Roots runs far more.

We need a least one dogged player in the top 6, that was Cook, might of been Hameed but not now.thats why I liked Stoneman myself- he seemed more defensive minded.

In the absence of much alternative I wonder if we will approach Cook to reconsider? Even if it's only for 12 months...

Is that an option I wonder?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on February 03, 2019, 01:52:11 PM
it's conceivable that the guys that play white ball won't hit another red ball after the Windies tour till the Ireland test!!!

Yes, it was those players I was talking about. Our so-called 'best' players. Can't believe you went to all that trouble!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: billyb on February 03, 2019, 01:55:51 PM
Cook had his perfect farewell, he can't come back now!

What a test series from the West Indies though. Pure heart, fire and belief. How much better is cricket with a strong West Indies? Long may it continue.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 03, 2019, 02:12:03 PM
Yes, it was those players I was talking about. Our so-called 'best' players. Can't believe you went to all that trouble!

It was more to also show that because of the World Cup there are quite a few CC games for someone to stick their hand up if they put runs on the board. Rather than only the usual CC fixtures in April before the May test series.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on February 03, 2019, 02:25:29 PM
It was more to also show that because of the World Cup there are quite a few CC games for someone to stick their hand up if they put runs on the board. Rather than only the usual CC fixtures in April before the May test series.

The likes of Root, Bairstow, Buttler and Stokes don't seem to be putting their hands up very often at the moment?

We've tried half of the top order batsmen in county cricket.
What reason do we have to believe any of the other half will fare any better as novices?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 03, 2019, 02:49:22 PM
The likes of Root, Bairstow, Buttler and Stokes don't seem to be putting their hands up very often at the moment?

We've tried half of the top order batsmen in county cricket.
What reason do we have to believe any of the other half will fare any better as novices?

None whatsoever too be honest with you. But that's not my job, that's Ed Smith's.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 03, 2019, 02:59:55 PM
Woakes is not a world beater Alan but if you look at our team do we need him as a reliable seamer who can bat lower down?
We need someone who can bang out a length consistently.

He was not fit for the last match but on the basis he is fit....Anderson, broad and stokes are getting bowled into the ground by Root.....that cannot continue.

It would mean we only play one spinner, but would it help the team long term for most of the conditions we face?

Certainly he's a seamer who can bat lower down but will he make an impact with the ball he's a good team man  and unlike certain England bowlers  who believe they know better will do what his Captain asks him to do. Also do  agree re Anderson and Broad  but the wickets haven't suited young Curran or Jimmy just wonder  though with the series won  for the final test will the windies bother to turn up
Ideally  long term for balance  you need two spinners a leg and off spinner both who can  take wickets and if not taking wickets block ends to give your seamers a breather but you also need to be able to read a wicket and select the team accordingly if your not sure maybe
as already mentioned when playing outside the UK  take a look at the makeup of the opposition.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 03, 2019, 03:15:54 PM
Yes Anderson and Curran need some movement thru the air, actually Jimmy has bowled very well without a great deal of luck, as has Broad in the one match he played.

Curran is def a prospect but at his pace needs swing thru the air, he's a good batsman too-potentially.i thought Curran bowled badly in the first test but he is not an opening bowler and it showed in that game.

Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 03, 2019, 03:35:07 PM
By all accounts England are trying to develop Currans batting they want him to become a top six batsman for all conditions who bowls
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 03, 2019, 03:50:21 PM
By all accounts England are trying to develop Currans batting they want him to become a top six batsman for all conditions who bowls

I don't think England are trying to develop his batting but I do think Curran is getting selected because of it.

We aren't thinking who's going to get 20 wickets, we are thinking who can bat well out of the allrounders and back us up just in case. Which isn't a great way to select a team.

Rob Key said something on Sky yesterday..... We have stopped selecting, our 6 best batsman, our best keeper and our 4 best bowlers to bowl the opposition out twice.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 03, 2019, 04:00:30 PM
Jason Holder just been suspended for the 3rd Test because of slow over rate in the last test.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on February 03, 2019, 04:06:24 PM
By all accounts England are trying to develop Currans batting they want him to become a top six batsman for all conditions who bowls
A few years ago there was a pair of left arm swing bowlers NZ's Franklin and India's Pathan pretty good bowlers. Both lost their way with the ball when their respective teams insisted they should focus on their batting. Both faded away rather than becoming 'proper all rounder'.

Curran's bowling is vastly inferior to the above mentioned and his batting is being over hyped. Doesn't even have a fc century yet.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: FattusCattus on February 03, 2019, 07:36:41 PM
http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/25915217/odi-mindset-england-poor-test-batting-trevor-bayliss (http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/25915217/odi-mindset-england-poor-test-batting-trevor-bayliss)

Have a word with yourself dickhead!!!

Do your job as a coach, bang a few heads together and try and solve the problem.

Donít just state the bleediní obvious about a problem thatís happened on your watch!!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 03, 2019, 07:49:28 PM
[url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/25915217/odi-mindset-england-poor-test-batting-trevor-bayliss[/url] ([url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/25915217/odi-mindset-england-poor-test-batting-trevor-bayliss[/url])

Have a word with yourself dickhead!!!

Do your job as a coach, bang a few heads together and try and solve the problem.

Donít just state the bleediní obvious about a problem thatís happened on your watch!!


Totally. He is quoted in the guardian as saying there  may of been a mis understanding in the approach for our successful one team batting method and the test one.

Well I'm sorry but two different forms of the game needs two different methods. I'd also question the batting coach..

The role and influence of any coach is open to question but you would think at the very least they are drumming into the test side you can't blast everything and defensive techniques have to be worked on. There's no way they should be any 'mis-understanding in the two different formats.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on February 03, 2019, 07:54:14 PM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2019/02/03/england-batsmen-called-tocrisis-meeting-astrevor-bayliss-looks/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2019/02/03/england-batsmen-called-tocrisis-meeting-astrevor-bayliss-looks/)

I mean, if this is true then Jesus. They donít know how to bat in tests ??  Most of these guys have 20+ caps !! If they donít know by now they never will
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on February 03, 2019, 08:20:54 PM
that's not my job, that's Ed Smith's.

A line that ought to be used more often on this forum?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on February 03, 2019, 08:24:46 PM
Rob Key said something on Sky yesterday..... We have stopped selecting, our 6 best batsman, our best keeper and our 4 best bowlers to bowl the opposition out twice.

Crikey! How much is he getting paid to come out with stuff like that?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 03, 2019, 09:29:09 PM
Another excellent article from George Dobell

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/25908096/outclassed-fought-...-england-boy-racers-run-road (http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/25908096/outclassed-fought-...-england-boy-racers-run-road)
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: FattusCattus on February 04, 2019, 10:38:04 AM
Yes it is, and i think this bit sums it all up:

Too many England players are putting too low a value on their wickets. Buttler (who was punished for playing across the line) has one century from 30 Tests; Bairstow (who missed a lavish drive) has been bowled 29 times in his Test career - that's 29 times out of 102 dismissals; more than any Test batsman this decade - and Stokes' Test average is now down to 32.88. Stokes (bowled off an inside edge while driving) hasn't scored a Test century since the incident in Bristol and has averaged 24.83 in that period; it was 35.72 before.

Moeen Ali, meanwhile, has seen his Test batting average drop to 30.28
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: mo_town on February 04, 2019, 11:00:46 AM
Yes it is, and i think this bit sums it all up:

Too many England players are putting too low a value on their wickets. Buttler (who was punished for playing across the line) has one century from 30 Tests; Bairstow (who missed a lavish drive) has been bowled 29 times in his Test career - that's 29 times out of 102 dismissals; more than any Test batsman this decade - and Stokes' Test average is now down to 32.88. Stokes (bowled off an inside edge while driving) hasn't scored a Test century since the incident in Bristol and has averaged 24.83 in that period; it was 35.72 before.

Moeen Ali, meanwhile, has seen his Test batting average drop to 30.28


One cant really blame the stroke makers for playing their natural game. The issue is with the selectors in that case, for filling the batting lineup with natural stroke makers. This side worked really well when Cook was around as he used to provide that stability at one end; absorb all the pressure and let others play their natural game. What they need to do is go pick the guy who played the most number of deliveries in county cricket in 2018 and put him in this lineup for balance.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: NT50 on February 04, 2019, 11:06:06 AM
I think the most disappointing thing in all this is how completely un-phased Bayliss seems to be. Watching his interviews on sky he just seems to avoid the issue and not take responsibility.

I get the feeling that he's done with test cricket and is just fulfilling his obligations until after the WC.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on February 04, 2019, 11:06:44 AM
'Natural' doesn't come into it. Pretty much the only time some of these guys see a red ball in a match is when they turn up for a Test.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 04, 2019, 11:31:18 AM
I think the most disappointing thing in all this is how completely un-phased Bayliss seems to be. Watching his interviews on sky he just seems to avoid the issue and not take responsibility.

I get the feeling that he's done with test cricket and is just fulfilling his obligations until after the WC.

Yes it's clear thou from the 'Misunderstanding' they are mixing the two formats hence he has got a lot of the one day side in.

I don't accept myself batsmen cannot adapt from one to the other, and what are the coaches doing?

If our best batsmen are our one day players as well fine...but are we really to believe they cannot adapt for tests?

The one day side is excellent....you get the feeling that's all that matters
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: shadowlight on February 04, 2019, 05:05:03 PM
I think the most disappointing thing in all this is how completely un-phased Bayliss seems to be. Watching his interviews on sky he just seems to avoid the issue and not take responsibility.

I get the feeling that he's done with test cricket and is just fulfilling his obligations until after the WC.

First congratulation to West Indies team for wins.

At this point why would Bayliss be worried about test team.  He knows his time is up and the only thing that is left to do is ensure England do well in WC.  If England win WC (big ask) the supporters are going to line up and say what a great coach Bayliss is and everything will be forgotten.  The disappointment and how crap the coach is will start as soon as the team fails to win the Ashes.  If England wins the Ashes Bayliss will be considered the best coach England ever had  :D
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on February 04, 2019, 07:40:45 PM
y
At this point why would Bayliss be worried about test team.  He knows his time is up and the only thing that is left to do is ensure England do well in WC.  If England win WC (big ask) the supporters are going to line up and say what a great coach Bayliss is and everything will be forgotten.  The disappointment and how crap the coach is will start as soon as the team fails to win the Ashes.  If England wins the Ashes Bayliss will be considered the best coach England ever had  :D

And, at the back of the mind, he'll be thinking you know what, on English pitches with a bit of nip against a team who can't play the moving ball, we shall probably dick them anyway. 
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 04, 2019, 09:38:29 PM
One cant really blame the stroke makers for playing their natural game. The issue is with the selectors in that case, for filling the batting lineup with natural stroke makers. This side worked really well when Cook was around as he used to provide that stability at one end; absorb all the pressure and let others play their natural game. What they need to do is go pick the guy who played the most number of deliveries in county cricket in 2018 and put him in this lineup for balance.

Much the same with Peterson and co  he had Strauss Cook and Trott providing the stability for the strokemakers
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on February 04, 2019, 09:44:56 PM
Much the same with Peterson and co  he had Strauss Cook and Trott providing the stability for the strokemakers

What I wouldn't give to see Trott dig his trench down the pitch en route to a 200 ball half century for England again. Those were the days! :(
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: JTtaylor145 on February 05, 2019, 08:30:55 AM
The problem that the selectors and ECB administrators have is that there is a lot that needs to be changed/fixed, not just one or two elements. The good news is that the one day side has improved. If we are very honest with ourselves England haven't been a great test side for a long time. At home we are in the top 3 or 4 sides in the world. Anderson, Broad, Woakes and Mo take plenty of wickets and we don't have to score 400+ to win test matches. Away from home we are pretty abysmal as our record clearly shows. We beat a very, very poor Sri Lankan side (who are being absolutely thrashed by Australia - a side that we think we are superior too) but have pretty much been well beaten whenever we travel. The problem has been there for years and hasn't been really addressed by the ECB. If we really want to focus on Test cricket or at least match our potential in ODI's we need to look at:

1. Split coaches for Test and ODI's/T20's (keep things fresh and give coaches some R&R)
2. Possibly split teams for Test and ODI's (different formats, different skills, give players some rest if they need it)
3. T20's internationals (firstly there are too many of them and it's at saturation point for the public) play a core group of younger players to give them international experience with a sprinkling of 2/3 older players and give players like Root/Stokes/Mo a break from international cricket. T20 internationals should be focused on world cups.
4. Reduce meaningless cricket at the county level. The Nat West blast and now 100 ball format is too much cricket with no chance to work on cricket skills as players are just playing/travelling. What we need are 10-12 quality red ball matches per season, no more than 15 one day matches and no more than 12-14 20/20 matches. I want to see Joe Root facing James Anderson or TKC facing Stuart Broad. I want to see quality matches with more international players who are England qualified playing against each other. Let's make these matches test match and ODI trials. Let's get them on free-to-air television. I'd love to see County matches on tele with a strong Yorkshire (Root, Bairstow etc) against a strong Lancashire side (Anderson, Butler etc.). 
5. Get everyone to buy into the primary objective of making England the best test match and ODI side in the world. Counties may have to make sacrifices such as reduced T20 cricket.
6. Look at our skills shortages (Openers/Top order batsmen, Spin Bowlers, Fast Bowlers bowling over 85 mph) what resources do we need to develop, nurture and go these skills? How do we grow our internal talent?

Not to be pessimistic but our Team has only ever won a single ICC World Cup...ever. What have we changed? Have we ever dominated test cricket for 10 years both home and overseas? If we want to be truly successful then the whole cricketing community in England needs to be solely focused on the success of the England national team, to be honest that is how we are judged as a cricket nation. We are not judged on who has won the T20 blast within the last 5 years.

The good news is that there is no reason why we can't be more successful in all formats of international cricket but attitudes need to change from players, coaches and from ourselves as watchers of the game. Quality over quantity, skills over saturation. A mix of free to air and paid television rights. Let's win test match series home and away, let's win International competitions, sack off the 100 ball completion or just have that only and no blast. We are not India, we don't need a third rate IPL. Lets develop a structure that works for us and let's beat them in a test series over there or in a World Cup final.     
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 05, 2019, 09:32:23 AM
What I wouldn't give to see Trott dig his trench down the pitch en route to a 200 ball half century for England again. Those were the days! :(

Yeah with his GM bat dig,scratch, bit more digging, deep breath, nearly done, dig.

And to think it used to annoy some of us at the time, if only the clock could be turned back!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on February 07, 2019, 01:00:32 PM
West indies have recalled Gayle for the ODI series.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/25943365/chris-gayle-evin-lewis-back-west-indies-odi-squad (http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/25943365/chris-gayle-evin-lewis-back-west-indies-odi-squad)

Surprising given he's probably past his best and given he rather play t20 leagues over west indies cricket
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on February 07, 2019, 01:08:14 PM
West indies have recalled Gayle for the ODI series.
[url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/25943365/chris-gayle-evin-lewis-back-west-indies-odi-squad[/url] ([url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/25943365/chris-gayle-evin-lewis-back-west-indies-odi-squad[/url])

Surprising given he's probably past his best and given he rather play t20 leagues over west indies cricket


He's the Universe Boss though, "past his best" or not he'll draw crowds!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: mo_town on February 07, 2019, 01:10:49 PM
Quite surprising. All he is good for is runs up the order on his day which comes rarely off late.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on February 07, 2019, 02:39:54 PM
Quite surprising. All he is good for is runs up the order on his day which comes rarely off late.
Surprising he still gets in the side yes, but what else are opening batsmen supposed to be good for..?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 07, 2019, 04:10:22 PM
The pitch 2 days out..... how long do you think we are going to last this time!!!!

https://twitter.com/bbctms/status/1093541383372242946?s=19
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 07, 2019, 04:16:17 PM
How long will we last on anything on this tour more like, where is the Compdog when you need him.  :)

Wood tipped to be in probably two matches too late(with hindsight selection). Knowing his luck the pitch won't have any pace.

The batsmen are just going to have to get stuck in otherwise after an excellent SL tour it's 0-3 here. Let's hope not.
 
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on February 07, 2019, 05:42:27 PM
Duckett made a few for the Lions today... good chance for England to get another keeper in the side?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on February 07, 2019, 05:43:50 PM
It might not have been the best Sri Lankan team they have ever out out, but we out bowled them in their conditions by picking a bowling attack suited to the conditions.  Not sure why we don't do this when playing in places like the West Indies and Australia where you need more pace and bounce.  Wood isn't everyone's cup of tea but he is probably the best we have at providing the captain with a different option
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 07, 2019, 05:57:41 PM
The captain has to use him properly, last test I watch him play he was banging it in halfway down on a slow track, it was brainless cricket

Against Pakistan I think
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 07, 2019, 08:41:26 PM
The captain has to use him properly, last test I watch him play he was banging it in halfway down on a slow track, it was brainless cricket

Against Pakistan I think
If he plays and the pitch is quick to be effective  he needs to be bowled in three or 4 over bursts no longer.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 07, 2019, 08:56:35 PM
Hearing that Foakes could still be to injured to keep etc... and therefore out of the test.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on February 07, 2019, 08:59:07 PM
I think that it is a big ask for someone to keep and bat at 3 in test cricket.  Will be interesting to see if it does lead to a shift in the order
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 07, 2019, 09:03:19 PM
Hearing that Foakes could still be to injured to keep etc... and therefore out of the test.


I will add to that Stokes and Woakes apparently!!

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/25945851/ben-stokes-misses-training-bruised-heel-england-regroup-st-lucia?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true (http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/25945851/ben-stokes-misses-training-bruised-heel-england-regroup-st-lucia?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true)
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on February 07, 2019, 09:22:19 PM
It might not have been the best Sri Lankan team they have ever out out, but we out bowled them in their conditions by picking a bowling attack suited to the conditions.  Not sure why we don't do this when playing in places like the West Indies and Australia where you need more pace and bounce.  Wood isn't everyone's cup of tea but he is probably the best we have at providing the captain with a different option
But Wood isn't actually quick or bouncy? If the press reports are true and Woakes has been nursing an injury all tour then it's barely believable they haven't called up cover, especially if Stokes can't bowl.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on February 07, 2019, 09:32:06 PM
Wood the enforcer! Bowling at 85mph  :D

Over rated and does nothing with the ball. Wouldnít class him as a outright fast bowler. As they say youíre a better player once you are out of the team.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 07, 2019, 10:24:56 PM
I think that it is a big ask for someone to keep and bat at 3 in test cricket.  Will be interesting to see if it does lead to a shift in the order

It surely has to if Foakes is out injured. In a team full of either allrounders or number 6's the best bat has to go 3.

Root needs to do what is best for the team not his own interests.

Makes no sense to me at all why he just does not budge, he knows the others around him are not top order, gawd knows we even had Moeen Ali up there for a while.

the only lower order player left to try at 3 is butler....
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on February 07, 2019, 10:28:42 PM
It might not have been the best Sri Lankan team they have ever out out, but we out bowled them in their conditions by picking a bowling attack suited to the conditions.  Not sure why we don't do this when playing in places like the West Indies and Australia where you need more pace and bounce.  Wood isn't everyone's cup of tea but he is probably the best we have at providing the captain with a different option

Umm, SL produced flat tracks rather than sandpits. They were scared of ICC sanctions rather than winning a series. Those flat tracks allowed England to compete more effectively. Letís not claim too much that this side beat SL on their normal wickets.. they were flat and essentially lifeless so allowed Englandís strike makers the ability to not get shown up
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on February 07, 2019, 10:39:55 PM
I don't suppose it will happen, but Foakes is good enough (relatively speaking) to play as a batsman. There are certainly people I'd choose him to bat for my life ahead of.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on February 07, 2019, 10:40:22 PM
Wood the enforcer! Bowling at 85mph  :D

Over rated and does nothing with the ball. Wouldnít class him as a outright fast bowler. As they say youíre a better player once you are out of the team.

Wood has played enough international cricket now that people must be able to see he's not up to it.
Unfortunately I don't think there are many better options out there for the England selectors to pick from.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on February 07, 2019, 10:40:45 PM
I don't suppose it will happen, but Foakes is good enough (relatively speaking) to play as a batsman. There are certainly people in England top order that I'd choose him to bat for my life ahead of.

Like numbers 1-7?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on February 07, 2019, 10:44:13 PM
Like numbers 1-7?

Pretty much. At least you'd know you'd be getting full commitment to the cause.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on February 07, 2019, 11:30:32 PM
But Wood isn't actually quick or bouncy? If the press reports are true and Woakes has been nursing an injury all tour then it's barely believable they haven't called up cover, especially if Stokes can't bowl.

The pace he registers on the speed gun isn't exceptional by any means, but he looks a yard quicker the  any other England bowler on the times I have watched him bowl in person and he has one of  those ugly jittery run ups and actions that make him hard to line up for a batsman. I would use him at home where other bowlers are better suited to the conditions but I don't see the we have anything better for bowling in the conditions we have seen during this tour
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on February 07, 2019, 11:37:52 PM
Umm, SL produced flat tracks rather than sandpits. They were scared of ICC sanctions rather than winning a series. Those flat tracks allowed England to compete more effectively. Letís not claim too much that this side beat SL on their normal wickets.. they were flat and essentially lifeless so allowed Englandís strike makers the ability to not get shown up

I don't think anyone holds much fear of the ICC and Sri Lanka have prepared some dreadfully flat pitches in recent times.  The ones in the series before Christmas were far from in that category.  And irrespective of the pitches, our spinners took the majority of the wickets in the series, at a very good average, comprehensively out-bowling the opposition slow bowlers in the process.  The team has been rightly criticised for its performances in the current series, but the win in Sri
Lanka was a significant achievement and they rightly deserve the praise they got for those performances.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: LateBloomer on February 08, 2019, 12:02:25 AM
Umm, SL produced flat tracks rather than sandpits. They were scared of ICC sanctions rather than winning a series. Those flat tracks allowed England to compete more effectively. Letís not claim too much that this side beat SL on their normal wickets.. they were flat and essentially lifeless so allowed Englandís strike makers the ability to not get shown up

Not sure what you were watching but all three pitches were turning big by the morning of the 2nd day at the latest.

You are belittling a result that no other team in international cricket has ever achieved. Just have a think about that
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: LateBloomer on February 08, 2019, 12:15:28 AM
Wood the enforcer! Bowling at 85mph  :D


5mph faster than Wagner
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on February 08, 2019, 06:50:35 AM
The pace he registers on the speed gun isn't exceptional by any means, but he looks a yard quicker the  any other England bowler on the times I have watched him bowl in person and he has one of  those ugly jittery run ups and actions that make him hard to line up for a batsman. I would use him at home where other bowlers are better suited to the conditions but I don't see the we have anything better for bowling in the conditions we have seen during this tour
Not an unreasonable point on his action, but in international cricket that doesn't get you very far. To be fair the pitches have clearly not been what England were expecting so I can see why they aren't on the tour, but I'd wager the Overton twins would be mighty effective on these surfaces.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on February 08, 2019, 07:16:22 AM
5mph faster than Wagner

Yet Wagner has a much better record and won more matches for his side. Youíd pick Wagner ahead of wood.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: LateBloomer on February 08, 2019, 08:22:19 AM
Not an unreasonable point on his action, but in international cricket that doesn't get you very far. To be fair the pitches have clearly not been what England were expecting so I can see why they aren't on the tour, but I'd wager the Overton twins would be mighty effective on these surfaces.

Having watched both a little bit, I would say that Craig will never quite be good enough as a test bowler. Jamie has wicket taking potential at that level for sure if he can stay fit
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: LateBloomer on February 08, 2019, 09:15:48 AM
Yet Wagner has a much better record and won more matches for his side. Youíd pick Wagner ahead of wood.

And to think England nearly had him aswell. If only Sussex had offered that contract

My point is that pace isnt the only attribute needed as Wagner performs his role brilliantly whilst rarely touching 85.

England should move on from Wood in the red ball set up in the near future and look to the younger bunch. Still think Wood has a role in the 50 over squad
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: goodarmcindy on February 08, 2019, 11:06:20 AM
When we ask which bowlers we'd like to see step up to the England set up it's slightly disheartening to look at the Lions side in India at the moment.

Porter (who might be a long-term replacement for Anderson, but seems to lack a bit of zip), Lewis Gregory (again on the medium side of fast-medium), Mullaney bowled first change and then the injury prone Zak Chappell, who I know a lot of people rate but has barely put a string of games together without getting injured.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 08, 2019, 11:16:10 AM
When we ask which bowlers we'd like to see step up to the England set up it's slightly disheartening to look at the Lions side in India at the moment.

Porter (who might be a long-term replacement for Anderson, but seems to lack a bit of zip), Lewis Gregory (again on the medium side of fast-medium), Mullaney bowled first change and then the injury prone Zak Chappell, who I know a lot of people rate but has barely put a string of games together without getting injured.

Yes indeed and Woakes has carried a knee injury all tour and does not seem to have been fully fit for a while.one of the Overton twins could break thru if injury free and Toby Roland Jones maybe if he recovers for this season.

I mention Woakes because he has been pencilled in to take over from Anderson long term and that may not happen, he is not I stress in Andersons class with the ball...

Stokes looks unfit for the st Lucia test also after being bowled into the ground the previous two games.

Steven Finn, again has injuries and has lost pace, doubtful whether he can regain the pace and fitness needed.

Sussex have a left arm quick and I think there is an Asian bowler highly rated at Lancs- can't remember his name at the moment
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 08, 2019, 11:34:10 AM
Woakes has an outswinger and  unlike Anderson not much else This series has show though England really need an out an out   3 or 4 bursts  consistently quick bowler.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on February 08, 2019, 11:35:00 AM
Saquib Mahmood is the lad at Lancs.  He is only 21 and had played very little first class cricket but is very sharp.

Finn interviewed a while back about the lack of pace options compared to other nations and he mentioned that the long slog of county cricket not being conducive to developing express bowlers.  I would probably add to that the green pitches that favour 75-82mph bowlers who can bowl consistently in the right areas over faster bowlers who may be more erratic.  It makes us very strong in our own conditions but leaves the national side short of options away from hone
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on February 08, 2019, 11:36:31 AM
When we ask which bowlers we'd like to see step up to the England set up it's slightly disheartening to look at the Lions side in India at the moment.

Porter (who might be a long-term replacement for Anderson, but seems to lack a bit of zip), Lewis Gregory (again on the medium side of fast-medium), Mullaney bowled first change and then the injury prone Zak Chappell, who I know a lot of people rate but has barely put a string of games together without getting injured.
Was checking the scores earlier and wondering what the point of this Lions fixture is, looking at the side selected. I know it isn't as simple as an England second XI and there have been injuries, but it's not a great looking side is it. Why aren't Bess and Overton playing? What on earth is Steve Mullaney doing on a Lions tour? etc etc.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on February 08, 2019, 11:43:44 AM
Agree with the comments on the Lions make up.  I don't see the point in taking players unless they are trying to develop into future options for fill England selection

Steve Mullaney also captained the North in that North v South pre-season competition that Strauss decided to introduce.  Obviously someone at the ECB likes the cut it his jib but it is hard to see why from a cricketing perspective
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: goodarmcindy on February 08, 2019, 12:31:32 PM
Of the names mentioned, and a couple I've added in:

Saqib Mahmood - 7 FC games
Henry Brookes - 6 FC games
George Garton - 10 FC games
Zak Chappell - 14 FC games
Olly Stone - 34 FC games
Josh Tongue - 26 FC games
Pat Brown - 5 FC games
Ben Coad - 24 FC games
Tom Helm - 22 FC games

And we need to replace Anderson (238 FC) and Broad (201 FC) soon. So for all the talk of never finding an opener to replace Strauss (and now Cook) or a number three to replace Trott, who can step in and replace Broad and Anderson, because we can't even settle on the other two bowlers to complement the attack with them now.

I'm a huge Woakes fan, but I feel injuries are really starting to affect him. I think there was a side strain a couple of years ago that curtailed him in full flow and know chronic knee pain apparently. Wood is proven ineffectual at Test level. TRJ is older and suffered a stress fracture that's held him out for a while now. Craig Overton is a trier but lacks pace, as does Tom Curran. So who's left?

Feels a bit pessimistic about it at the moment. Need some of those mentioned above to have great starts to the season, and more importantly, stay fit.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 08, 2019, 12:38:49 PM
Agree with the comments on the Lions make up.  I don't see the point in taking players unless they are trying to develop into future options for fill England selection

Steve Mullaney also captained the North in that North v South pre-season competition that Strauss decided to introduce.  Obviously someone at the ECB likes the cut it his jib but it is hard to see why from a cricketing perspective

The North vs South Series isn't just players selected by the England selectors it is 1st the top four England-qualified players in the PCA's MVP Rankings for each group of the Royal London One-Day Cup who are invited to be in the squads. Then after that the Selectors decide the rest.

Mullaney replaced Tom Moores for the Lions India tour after Moores injured his leg.

As for the general side selected I think everyone is out there who you would expect (who is fit/available), the only thing you might say is why isn't another spinner playing (but we aren't there to see the pitch etc...) - the real question is how do we class the Lions.

Is the Lions a young up and coming England side, or is it an England B team. If it is the later than there are probably players missing.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 08, 2019, 03:00:11 PM
St Lucia pitch green with grass and bare in places rock hard and reasonably true
Stokes to undergo fitness test in the morning on painful heel
Woakes unlikely to play with the one dayers Starting 20th Feb.
If Foakes hand still sore Jennings to open. Denly at 3.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 08, 2019, 03:08:38 PM
Jennings? Well I guess .....I dunno actually. as long as he don't get out on the drive with feet in quicksand that will do
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 08, 2019, 04:51:08 PM
St Lucia pitch green with grass and bare in places rock hard and reasonably true
Stokes to undergo fitness test in the morning on painful heel
Woakes unlikely to play with the one dayers Starting 20th Feb.
If Foakes hand still sore Jennings to open. Denly at 3.

All the journos watching practice today are tweeting that it is going to be Jennings in, Denly at 3. Bairstow definitely keeping whether Foakes is fit or not doesn't matter. Especially as Root talked about a change of balance to the team in an interview with BBC.

Wood in for Curran unless Stokes fails fitness test.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 08, 2019, 05:38:24 PM
All the journos watching practice today are tweeting that it is going to be Jennings in, Denly at 3. Bairstow definitely keeping whether Foakes is fit or not doesn't matter. Especially as Root talked about a change of balance to the team in an interview with BBC.

Wood in for Curran unless Stokes fails fitness test.

Yes they want to revert back to Bairstow. Neither him nor root want to bat 3, essentially Foakes will lose his place because those around him are not good enough.

It's poor but this was on the cards I think. With this summers cricket and a tour of SA to follow I think the specialist keepers role(although Foakes is a very good bat) is finished.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: billyb on February 08, 2019, 05:39:40 PM
Foakes dropped, Jennings in.

And so the merry go round begins again.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 08, 2019, 05:54:26 PM
It is piss poor if you ask me. Essentially Foakes is being dropped 4 tests after he scored a crucial 100 because others can't bat!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 08, 2019, 05:59:40 PM
Exactly. This England team on this tour have become very hard to like. And I'm a die hard supporter!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Tailendfielder on February 08, 2019, 06:26:54 PM

Foakes will constantly be under threat because Jos and Jonny can keep, he will have to 'keep' his average over 40 just to keep the media from writing him off.


Knew it would happen, i reality bairstow or buttler should have lost there place. Poor decision for me, until england ditch the Jamie Dalrimple approach, we will continue to be bang average.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: FattusCattus on February 08, 2019, 07:14:26 PM
It is piss poor if you ask me. Essentially Foakes is being dropped 4 tests after he scored a crucial 100 because others can't bat!

Mind you, there are plenty who haven;t made any significant runs in the last few tests - Butler, Stokes, Curran, Root - it's a bit of a shambles at the moment!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 08, 2019, 07:27:34 PM
It's quite simply because Root doesn't have the balls to bat at 3. If he would take that responsibility we wouldn't be in this mess trying to fudge a top 3.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on February 08, 2019, 07:29:30 PM
Foakes has been dropped.

(No Swearing Please) it, I'm done! From now on I'm supporting Ireland
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 08, 2019, 07:40:37 PM
I didn't think 'piss poor' would get thru the filters so again

It's piss poor and we are turning into the boys club we are often called.

Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on February 08, 2019, 07:41:28 PM
I don't get the logic of this on any level.

Bairstow has been our best bat since coming back into the team. Except when he had just kept 130 overs. He may prefer five to three and you might as selector humour that but... why hamstring him with the gloves?

Moving on. We now have a hole in the side and one of Buttler, Jennings or Foakes is to miss out. Well, of the three, Foakes is by far the most likely to score steady runs so surely he stays?

If anyone locates the plot, do wake me...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: shadowlight on February 08, 2019, 07:55:34 PM
I hope WI give England another thumping.  Very disappointed in the selection.  What has Jennings done to deserve a place back, along with Fiakes losing his spot.  If Johnny wants to keep fine , swap keepers around and play Foakes as Pure batsman.  If WI bat first Jonnyís run production is suspect.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: billyb on February 08, 2019, 08:23:54 PM
It's such a joke. Foakes is class. I cannot stand the ECB decisions at test level, what is their long term plan? They are wasting Root, Broad and the last year of Anderson.
Rudderless
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 08, 2019, 08:25:35 PM
The situation wonderfully summed up by George Dobell....

"Had talk at the Darren Sammy ground in St Lucia been of miners' strikes, war in the Falklands and the plotline of Neighbours, the sense could not have been clearer: England are back in the 1980s."

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/25953448/jennings-foakes-england-chaos-two-tests-ashes?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true (http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/25953448/jennings-foakes-england-chaos-two-tests-ashes?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true)
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Alvaro on February 08, 2019, 08:41:08 PM
I hope England get absolutely smashed.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on February 08, 2019, 08:54:18 PM
Good to know that averaging 32 since 2017 makes Bairstow one of the 'inner circle'. Absolutely embarrassing decision to axe Foakes. Aside from 2016, Bairstow has been mediocre
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Alvaro on February 08, 2019, 09:13:08 PM
This whole tour has made me angry in a way I havenít been since KP got binned. Itís cronyism, itís illogical and I donít think anyone making decisions really cares.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: golders on February 08, 2019, 09:15:48 PM
Burns, Jennings, Denly has 17-3 written all over it!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Alvaro on February 08, 2019, 09:32:24 PM
All of it is spineless. Theresa May has got more backbone than Root.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on February 08, 2019, 09:41:30 PM
The root of all the selection troubles is a top 3 who can't stick around long enough to build a platform for the middle order to build on.  No matter whether you agree with individual selection decisions, the team will struggle as a whole until this is fixed and I can't say that we are any closer to resolving this problem despite having tried a lot of different options
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: LateBloomer on February 08, 2019, 10:03:18 PM
Am I alone in thinking id select Foakes ahead of Jennings and Denly just as a batsman?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on February 08, 2019, 10:07:50 PM
Am I alone in thinking id select Foakes ahead of Jennings and Denly just as a batsman?

I posted along these lines earlier.  Foakes was since passed fit to keep, too.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SOULMAN1012 on February 08, 2019, 10:09:09 PM
Am I alone in thinking id select Foakes ahead of Jennings and Denly just as a batsman?

Denly has had 1 Test so I think deserves another shot, Jennings on the other hand is a joke whatís changed from when he was dropped 9 days ago! Nothing.

Foakes is harsh but I guess understandable if he canít keep, think as much as I like him YJB is a lucky boy and Root needs to grow a pair and bat at 3 for the team
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on February 08, 2019, 10:12:51 PM
Denly has had 1 Test so I think deserves another shot, Jennings on the other hand is a joke whatís changed from when he was dropped 9 days ago! Nothing.

Foakes is harsh but I guess understandable if he canít keep, think as much as I like him YJB is a lucky boy and Root needs to grow a pair and bat at 3 for the team

I read Foakes was passed fit to keep.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 08, 2019, 10:33:22 PM
Am I alone in thinking id select Foakes ahead of Jennings and Denly just as a batsman?

First class averages for the three puts Foakes as comfortably the better batsman. It would be another back to front selection as Foakes should be keeping but see where you're coming from.

. How they have left out Foakes in beyond me, I think the thinking is all wrong and it's incompetence from Bayliss and Root and whoever else does selection. And sadly for me a lack of courage.

Root should be 3 then it fits better for Bairstow,stokes and butler....and Foakes.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on February 08, 2019, 10:50:25 PM
Bairstows record is interesting. Averages 100 vs Sri Lanka and 55 vs SA

Every other nation in the low 30ís or below. Averages 28 and 18 against the Aussies and WI respectively
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on February 09, 2019, 12:20:38 AM
Bairstow had one purple patch but before and since has been very disappointing.  Personally, I would have one of Foakes or Bairstow in the side with Foakes the one I would go for right now.

Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: jamielsn15 on February 09, 2019, 08:41:49 AM
This is becoming the definition of insanity. It's also incredibly weak leadership and management. Unwillingness to make strong decisions with selection. Way too many middle order cooks spoiling the broth.

Jennings is nowhere near good enough for the Aussie attack in the summer. Pick on form from the championship and make tough decisions. I see only Burns, Root, Stokes, Broad and Anderson as certs for the Ashes. I want Foakes keeping, Woakes staying fit and I need to see Moeen and Jonny stepping up. I got slaughtered on here for suggesting Buttler needs to do more as a batsman during the SL series but if he's playing as a batsman he's got to up his production and that means lots of red ball cricket in the summer
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Kulli on February 09, 2019, 08:46:22 AM
Is the issue really that they got the original squad wrong and that Denly and Wood donít really offer good alternative options?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: FattusCattus on February 09, 2019, 08:47:14 AM
The situation wonderfully summed up by George Dobell....

"Had talk at the Darren Sammy ground in St Lucia been of miners' strikes, war in the Falklands and the plotline of Neighbours, the sense could not have been clearer: England are back in the 1980s."

[url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/25953448/jennings-foakes-england-chaos-two-tests-ashes?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true[/url] ([url]http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/25953448/jennings-foakes-england-chaos-two-tests-ashes?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true[/url])

Gosh that is a good article. That should be read aloud to the captain, coaches and selectors at a press conference.

The team needs a strong character to come in, chose the right squad, pick the best XI and influence the required style of play.

It seems we are a million miles from that!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 09, 2019, 09:29:30 AM
It isn't really although Foakes is the best gloveman in this Englad team your a batsman first To retain his place he has to keep scoring runs  or become a top six batter.

Predicted
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on February 09, 2019, 10:17:56 AM
Predicted

The issue is he has been scoring runs...

In fact, he's England's 5th highest scorer for the tour, not bad for a no.8. Admittedly this isn't a lot of runs, but nobody has scored heavily for England this tour.

He's also looked more assured than any of the "batsmen" ahead of him too. As @Bats_Entertainment said if you had to pick someone from the England side to bat for your life you'd chose him ahead of any of the top order. (I'd also accept the inevitable and call my loved ones to say goodbye if I was relying on the current shower of (No Swearing Please)...)

He's not been dropped on cricketing grounds at all. Joey's mate Jonny wants the gloves, and what Joey's mates want they get!

All this tour has proved is that you can't make a side of one day players and bit part "all rounders" into a quality test match side. It's time to pension off Bayliss, sack Root as captain and start from scratch, selecting your best players - not the captain and coaches favourite. If you do this Foakes will be one of the first names on the teamsheet!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: dt-second-hand-cricket on February 09, 2019, 10:42:52 AM
He's not been dropped on cricketing grounds at all. Joey's mate Jonny wants the gloves, and what Joey's mates want they get!

 It's time to pension off Bayliss, sack Root as captain and start from scratch, selecting your best players - not the captain and coaches favourite.
this does seem the issue in a nutshell, its like a poorly run club side, where if you are part of the 'clique' it is all good - if you are out of it - you're screwed - how the ECB can let the England team be run like this is unbelievable
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on February 09, 2019, 10:47:48 AM
He's not been dropped on cricketing grounds at all. Joey's mate Jonny wants the gloves, and what Joey's mates want they get!

Interesting how this has been distilled on here into Foakes vs Bairstow, which is plain wrong.  If Root was picking his mates, Gary Ballance and probably Alex Lees would be in the England side ahead of Bairstow!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: jonny77 on February 09, 2019, 11:00:33 AM
For some reason Bairstow is being made a scapegoat here, not sure why when he top scored in the last test? Foakes hasn't been dropped because Bairstow wants the gloves back, it's the balance of the side (not that i ageee with it). However I'm not sure anyone can say Foakes is a better bat than Bairstow or Butler, but that's not the issue. The issue is you could certainly argue he deserves a place ahead of Jennings, so you could keep Denly opening with Barstow 3 and Foakes keeping. However dropping Foakes for Jennings is not Bairstow or Butlers fault.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on February 09, 2019, 11:29:57 AM
If we're looking at it on run scoring alone what has Butter done this tour?
The same as Foakes without the second role in the side.

Bairstow isn't a no.3, this isn't even a debate. Denly isn't an opener, he bats no.3 (albeit in div 2). Jennings isn't a cricketer, someone should buy him some darts or something...

Whole I get this "balance of the side" argument isn't this down to the selectors choosing the wrong personnel for the squad and then trying to cobble together a side from what they've left themselves with.. 
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on February 09, 2019, 11:54:01 AM
For some reason Bairstow is being made a scapegoat here, not sure why when he top scored in the last test?
Because Bairstow averages 32 since the start of 2017. Furthermore aside from 2016 where his purple patch occurred, averaging 59, for the remainder of his career he averages 30.

So is an average of 30 really Ďbalancing the sideí?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 09, 2019, 12:04:11 PM
Selection for this whole tour has been a right (No Swearing Please) up from the off.

1. Spare batsman not an opener when that was always going to be the problem position.
2. Spare bowlers all injured before the tour even really started!
3. Selecting Rashid when he was always going to leave to be with his wife for the birth of his kid.

And that was just squad selection, let alone what's happened in selection for the matches!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on February 09, 2019, 12:51:43 PM
As I said yesterday, there is very little about this that makes sense.  The line that has been given is that it is a waste having a specialist keeper batting at eight, but the team is weaker with Jennings in for Foakes, so why not look at any of a number of other solutions such as, well, swapping Foakes and Ali in the order? :)

It makes no sense to me.  If there really was a desire to move Bairstow - odd given that he has done better than any other number 3 and the series has gone - then I'm sure Foakes would have happily agreed to give keeping and batting three a go, and if not then surely Buttler should have been the one in the frame.

Then again, none of this series has made sense - it seems that Ed Smith's run of crazy ideas has hit a bit of an impasse.  We need really to look forward to the Ashes and ask how many players we have pencilled in for our strongest XI.  I reckon there are seven names pretty much pencilled in, plus one more who probably should be - they being Burns (has to be given a run, looks like he might be good enough) Root (captain) Bairstow (most dangerous bat, should be given a long run at five), Stokes (legend) Anderson (legend) Broad (the Aussies hate him, and he tries harder now he isn't nailed on) and Archer, plus Foakes as the should be.  That leaves us three slots:

Burns
X
X
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Foakes
X
Archer
Broad
Anderson

 
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 09, 2019, 01:15:41 PM
As I said yesterday, there is very little about this that makes sense.  The line that has been given is that it is a waste having a specialist keeper batting at eight, but the team is weaker with Jennings in for Foakes, so why not look at any of a number of other solutions such as, well, swapping Foakes and Ali in the order? :)

It makes no sense to me.  If there really was a desire to move Bairstow - odd given that he has done better than any other number 3 and the series has gone - then I'm sure Foakes would have happily agreed to give keeping and batting three a go, and if not then surely Buttler should have been the one in the frame.

Then again, none of this series has made sense - it seems that Ed Smith's run of crazy ideas has hit a bit of an impasse.  We need really to look forward to the Ashes and ask how many players we have pencilled in for our strongest XI.  I reckon there are seven names pretty much pencilled in, plus one more who probably should be - they being Burns (has to be given a run, looks like he might be good enough) Root (captain) Bairstow (most dangerous bat, should be given a long run at five), Stokes (legend) Anderson (legend) Broad (the Aussies hate him, and he tries harder now he isn't nailed on) and Archer, plus Foakes as the should be.  That leaves us three slots:

Burns
X
X
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Foakes
X
Archer
Broad
Anderson

It's very interesting what will happen after this because there is only the Ireland test before the Ashes and I can't see that really changing anything.

So are they going to go on CC form throughout the summer for the possible places? The white ball guys are going to be playing no CC cricket before the Ireland test anyway because of the World Cup.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on February 09, 2019, 01:32:53 PM
It's very interesting what will happen after this because there is only the Ireland test before the Ashes and I can't see that really changing anything.

So are they going to go on CC form throughout the summer for the possible places? The white ball guys are going to be playing no CC cricket before the Ireland test anyway because of the World Cup.

It is in part the absence of other opportunity that leads me to pencil in so many names after such a poor series - the eight names I've listed are either proven performers within the success levels of this team or, in Jofra Archer, potential game changers.  I think the three places that this leaves up for grabs is sufficient for Championship form - though it would be very interesting if, for example, another guy who is a specialist five were to make bucket loads of runs. 
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: jonny77 on February 09, 2019, 01:34:18 PM
Because Bairstow averages 32 since the start of 2017. Furthermore aside from 2016 where his purple patch occurred, averaging 59, for the remainder of his career he averages 30.

So is an average of 30 really Ďbalancing the sideí?

I agree, I wouldn't drop Foakes but I also wouldn't make Barstow the scapegoat either. Not sure you can go purely on averages, surely being top run scorer so far in the series should entitle you to retain your place? I'd have played Foakes as keeper instead of Jennings, kept the order as it was but maybe moved Foakes ahead of Ali. However I think this was the selectors idea of 'balance'.

The selection of Jennings is the squad is showing to be a poor one as we have no other options to come in uo the order, which is where we're struggling.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 09, 2019, 01:38:29 PM
Stokes fit to play and bowl so no Curran.

Paul  in for WI

WI win the toss and will bowl

How many we getting???
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on February 09, 2019, 01:40:04 PM
the quickest pitches in the West Indies. Expect root to go missing as he does on pacey wickets
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on February 09, 2019, 01:41:27 PM
I dread to think!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: jonny77 on February 09, 2019, 01:42:00 PM
Depends on the wicket but just hope we get to 300 for once.

Butcher and Key talking rubbish, obviously know nothing about batting as they reckon Bairstow is England 2nd best batsmen  :D
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on February 09, 2019, 01:48:51 PM
Depends on the wicket but just hope we get to 300 for once.

Butcher and Key talking rubbish, obviously know nothing about batting as they reckon Bairstow is England 2nd best batsmen  :D

Well, if you go with the premise that Root is #1, he almost certainly is.  Who would you day was better?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: jonny77 on February 09, 2019, 02:01:07 PM
Well, if you go with the premise that Root is #1, he almost certainly is.  Who would you day was better?

I agree. I was having a lighthearted dig at others on here mate
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: cricketbadger on February 09, 2019, 02:12:28 PM
Butcher and Key are two of my favourites, compared to some of the dross coming out of other mouths
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on February 09, 2019, 02:20:46 PM
First 5 overs, average pace in the wicket. Dare I say it good toss to lose
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: golders on February 09, 2019, 02:27:51 PM
Jennings feet stuck in cement again
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 09, 2019, 02:57:19 PM
Question -

Is the worse case scenario Jennings actually getting 100+ and therefore becomming undroppable for the 1st ashes test and having to face Cummins etc...??
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on February 09, 2019, 02:58:54 PM
Question -

Is the worse case scenario Jennings actually getting 100+ and therefore becomming undroppable for the 1st ashes test and having to face Cummins etc...??

Aussies would be praying for him to get a 100
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 09, 2019, 03:14:31 PM
Jennings gets 2 life's!!!

LBW not given. WI didn't review thinking he hit it. No bat and it was taking out leg stump.

2 balls later dropped at 3rd slip!!

Get on the lottery Keaton!!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on February 09, 2019, 03:47:09 PM
Well that was painful and came to an inevitable end...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on February 09, 2019, 03:49:46 PM
A joke, yet again
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 09, 2019, 03:50:43 PM
Well that was painful and came to an inevitable end...

I think that sums it up nicely mate
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on February 09, 2019, 03:51:04 PM
Calling it now, Denly isn't going to hang around

Having just seen Jennings nick off is flashing at a drive 2nd pill a sensible shot?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Kulli on February 09, 2019, 03:52:40 PM
Surely picking Jennings again is just an admission that denly was an appalling choice of backup opener and that they donít fancy him either. What a shambles.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on February 09, 2019, 03:53:50 PM
Way to go, Jennings...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 09, 2019, 03:55:13 PM
Looked like Keaton head has gone didn't play like an opener tecnique all at sea.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 09, 2019, 04:25:40 PM
Surely picking Jennings again is just an admission that denly was an appalling choice of backup opener and that they donít fancy him either. What a shambles.

Atherton nailed it squad selection  for windies tour wrong 3 keepers 3 spinners  no backup opener.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on February 09, 2019, 04:31:32 PM
Atherton nailed it squad selection  for windies tour wrong 3 keepers 3 spinners  no backup opener.

I can allow the three keepers in that all of them are allegedly at the standard where they can be considered as specialist bats.  Well, just about.

But there was always one spinner too many, and one top order bat too few.  Probably one fit quick bowler as well - I would have loved to see Jamie Overton let loose on these decks.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on February 09, 2019, 04:32:00 PM
Denly in the poop here...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on February 09, 2019, 04:32:15 PM
or maybe not...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 09, 2019, 04:34:19 PM
The issue is he has been scoring runs...

In fact, he's England's 5th highest scorer for the tour, not bad for a no.8. Admittedly this isn't a lot of runs, but nobody has scored heavily for England this tour.

He's also looked more assured than any of the "batsmen" ahead of him too. As @Bats_Entertainment said if you had to pick someone from the England side to bat for your life you'd chose him ahead of any of the top order. (I'd also accept the inevitable and call my loved ones to say goodbye if I was relying on the current shower of (No Swearing Please)...)

He's not been dropped on cricketing grounds at all. Joey's mate Jonny wants the gloves, and what Joey's mates want they get!

All this tour has proved is that you can't make a side of one day players and bit part "all rounders" into a quality test match side. It's time to pension off Bayliss, sack Root as captain and start from scratch, selecting your best players - not the captain and coaches favourite. If you do this Foakes will be one of the first names on the teamsheet!

It's different batting at eight also not sure Bairstows a favourite he's been left out  recently also  can't really see how  someone who's played 5 tests  batting at 8  3 against weak opposition  would be  one of the first name on Englands team sheet
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 09, 2019, 04:38:58 PM
Unbelievable reprieve for Denly... not out because his hand was off the bat!!!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 09, 2019, 04:43:38 PM
I can allow the three keepers in that all of them are allegedly at the standard where they can be considered as specialist bats.  Well, just about.

But there was always one spinner too many, and one top order bat too few.  Probably one fit quick bowler as well - I would have loved to see Jamie Overton let loose on these decks.

Maybe the selectors couldn't find a reserve opener good enough  wasn't Jamie Overton  considered to tour but  England went for Woakes and Stone  who were nt fully fit.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 09, 2019, 04:49:41 PM
Commentators  crictial  over the selection of Jennings
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on February 09, 2019, 04:57:33 PM
It's different batting at eight also not sure Bairstows a favourite he's been left out  recently also  can't really see how  someone who's played 5 tests  batting at 8  3 against weak opposition  would be  one of the first name on Englands team sheet

Agreed in many ways, though he would be amongst the first names on mine (not least because Bairstow needs to make it as a bat, because keeping will blow out his knees in no time).  The other thing I like about having Foakes in is the break he provides between five/six biffers - Woakes is another he does this.  Long term, we'd have found out more if he had batted three tbh!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on February 09, 2019, 04:58:00 PM
Commentators  crictial  over the selection of Jennings

hardly a shock that!!!!!  :D
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on February 09, 2019, 04:58:16 PM
It's different batting at eight also not sure Bairstows a favourite he's been left out  recently also  can't really see how  someone who's played 5 tests  batting at 8  3 against weak opposition  would be  one of the first name on Englands team sheet

Do you dislike Foakes because his name sounds similar to Woakes?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on February 09, 2019, 04:58:56 PM
Do you dislike Foakes because his name sounds similar to Woakes?

banter of the week award sorted then  :D
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on February 09, 2019, 05:45:28 PM
Canít miss them with that technique.

Still, good fight shown by Burns.. well done lad
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on February 09, 2019, 06:05:13 PM
I'm really failing to grasp what we are trying to achieve with the top order. We show no indication of gaining the impetus. We continually allow the very good Windies bowlers to do as they please. Then we collapse like a deck of cards.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: golders on February 09, 2019, 06:06:43 PM
Iíll try and say something positive and I quite like Burns. Reminds me of Dean Elgar.
Not sure how long Sorry will last as skipper though.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on February 09, 2019, 06:16:46 PM
I'm really failing to grasp what we are trying to achieve with the top order. We show no indication of gaining the impetus. We continually allow the very good Windies bowlers to do as they please. Then we collapse like a deck of cards.

Umm, theyíve tried to do the attack method and failed time after time.. at least they are trying to apply themselves. The fact they arenít good enough is another issue. At least they are actually trying to occupy the crease. Donít need to assert yourself in a test..

Root and buttler look all at sea and havenít got the memo about it being test cricket
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on February 09, 2019, 06:36:34 PM
Burns has got fight but any movement either in or out with that technique and he is in trouble.  Whether it is nicking off to the ball moving away or playing all around the ball coming in, planting the front foot on off stump is consistently getting him out
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on February 09, 2019, 06:38:24 PM
Burns has got fight but any movement either in or out with that technique and he is in trouble.  Whether it is nicking off to the ball moving away or playing all around the ball coming in, planting the front foot on off stump is consistently getting him out

As youíd expect from that technique. At least he applied himself which is something buttler and root arenít doing currently
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: smilley792 on February 09, 2019, 07:10:17 PM
This series has cemented that root is no where near the class of kohli
Williamson and Smith
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on February 09, 2019, 07:11:34 PM
So much farce I don't even know where to start. How do you drop a bloke who was man of the series two tests ago? At least everyone is now batting in the right spot, that is the only good thing I can say about this mess.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 09, 2019, 07:40:00 PM
This series has cemented that root is no where near the class of kohli
Williamson and Smith

Yes out of the big four he is forth. He is the best batsman I've seen for England since Gooch, potentially our best ever player.

That's a big call I know, to achieve what he wants he needs to concentrate on just batting. I genuinely believe he could be in the company of those three.

we have a history of making our best player Captain and it don't always work.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on February 09, 2019, 07:56:25 PM
So much farce I don't even know where to start. How do you drop a bloke who was man of the series two tests ago? At least everyone is now batting in the right spot, that is the only good thing I can say about this mess.
Because he lacks bowling skills as was mentioned on air by Ian Bishop
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on February 09, 2019, 07:59:30 PM
@alexhilly1492 on TV alert!

Good to see Stokes looking a bit more like Stokes here, been a bit absent the past year.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on February 09, 2019, 08:24:03 PM
Umm, theyíve tried to do the attack method and failed time after time.. at least they are trying to apply themselves. The fact they arenít good enough is another issue. At least they are actually trying to occupy the crease. Donít need to assert yourself in a test..

Root and buttler look all at sea and havenít got the memo about it being test cricket
When I say impetus Iím not talking about batting like Sehwag/Warner/Gayle. Iím talking about actually trying to score runs and rotate the strike. Just endlessly blocking results in the Windies bowlers having no pressure on their shoulders.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 09, 2019, 08:40:34 PM
Do you dislike Foakes because his name sounds similar to Woakes?

I like him just can't see how or where he fits into this England team
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 09, 2019, 08:58:14 PM
I like him just can't see how or where he fits into this England team

He doesn't fit now quite right, but that's because we have stopped picking our strongest 11 to win a match,and when this tour is over I hope someone will be accountable for that. He should fit into the team in the tradional keepers spot of number 7.

Failing that they should be asking who is the better batsman out of

Foakes
Denly
Jennings

If I was to put them in order who is the best,the above would be it.last two first class average is 35,first one FC average is 40-averages are not everything agreed....but over a period they show who is any good.

But England have ended Foakes test career after being man of the series for the last one, it beggars belief to be honest.

We are set now, come the Ashes and green tracks here we might not even play a spinner, we revert to a batsman-keeper.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 09, 2019, 09:02:34 PM
Your right England mentality Batsman first keeper second as been for a while.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: cricketbadger on February 09, 2019, 09:04:24 PM
As youíd expect from that technique. At least he applied himself which is something buttler and root arenít doing currently

Agree with both points, but his weakness is also his strength too, good off his pads and driving
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 09, 2019, 09:12:54 PM
Unbelievable scenes Stokes was all the way into the changing rooms! And then gets called back as it's a no ball!!

https://twitter.com/TheBarmyArmy/status/1094342448833355776?s=19
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on February 09, 2019, 09:13:29 PM
This is just shambolic all round...

Stokes hits a long hop back to the bowler and thinks he is out C&B.

Stokes walks off and Bairstow comes out to the middle, only for the 3rd umpire to check for a no-ball. It is (why aren't these called in real time any more?). Shock, it is a no ball and the decision is not out.

4th umpire has to go and get Stokes, who goes back to the middle to resume his innings and Bairstow has to go back to the pavilion.

You couldn't make it up... #Village
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 09, 2019, 09:13:58 PM
Is it a coincidence we are now in the best position we have been in all tour with the middle order scoring after one of our openers actually got stuck in and used up some deliveries? Well done Burns, 29 ain't world beating but he did a job.

Root said last week ' it's no good just staying there and not scoring runs' .

That sort of thinking shows why we need a big change in attitude to tests.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Sam on February 09, 2019, 09:15:19 PM
This is just shambolic all round...

Stokes hits a long hop back to the bowler and thinks he is out C&B.

Stokes walks off and Bairstow comes out to the middle, only for the 3rd umpire to check for a no-ball. It is (why aren't these called in real time any more?). Shock, it is a no ball and the decision is not out.

4th umpire has to go and get Stokes, who goes back to the middle to resume his innings and Bairstow has to go back to the pavilion.

You couldn't make it up... #Village

To be honest with those ones I can understand it. That's pretty much going to be impossible to call in real time and it's better to stay on the safe side and let the third umpire check if required.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on February 09, 2019, 09:16:24 PM
Is it a coincidence we are now in the best position we have been in all tour with the middle order scoring after one of our openers actually got stuck in and used up some deliveries? Well done Burns, 29 ain't world beating but he did a job.

Root said last week ' it's no good just staying there and not scoring runs' .

That sort of thinking shows why we need a big change in attitude to tests.

Agreed.. his job is to score runs but also see off balls and get bowlers into their 2/3/4th spells and set up a tiring attack for 4/5/6/7.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: smilley792 on February 09, 2019, 09:18:28 PM
(why aren't these called in real time any more?).


Seen about 6 called by the on field umpire today.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: smilley792 on February 09, 2019, 09:25:44 PM
Itís a shame burns didnít go on to get a score. Did all the hard work this morning.

Scored his 29 runs of more balls than both stokes and buttler used to get there fifties.


Is this the first time this series weíve made the windows use there part timer??
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on February 09, 2019, 09:26:55 PM
To be honest with those ones I can understand it. That's pretty much going to be impossible to call in real time and it's better to stay on the safe side and let the third umpire check if required.

In which case, tell the batsman to wait on the field until the decision is made instead of letting them walk off. Pretty sure I've seen that happen previously.


Seen about 6 called by the on field umpire today.

Why aren't they being looked for every ball then?
The fact they've called them previously arguably makes it worse...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on February 09, 2019, 09:27:59 PM
Is this the first time this series weíve made the windows use there part timer??

Despite his 8 fer, Roston Chase isn't a front line bowler!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: smilley792 on February 09, 2019, 09:31:44 PM
Despite his 8 fer, Roston Chase isn't a front line bowler!

He is playing as there main spinner though. Brathwaite is not.

Itís a sign we have them tired for once.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on February 09, 2019, 09:42:20 PM
This over rate is shambolic yet again
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Sam on February 09, 2019, 10:02:31 PM
In which case, tell the batsman to wait on the field until the decision is made instead of letting them walk off. Pretty sure I've seen that happen previously.

They used to but it's not exactly needed with the new rules in place now.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on February 09, 2019, 10:17:06 PM
As youíd expect from that technique. At least he applied himself which is something buttler and root arenít doing currently

No issue at all with Butler applying himself since his return to test cricket, he has shown that he is prepared to grind it out where needed.  If anything, the thing he hasn't shown yet is the ability to switch to his more natural game and take the game to the opposition.

The problem with Jennings and Burns isn't that they play too many shots - their strike rates show that.  Their problem is that they both have huge technical issues.  Applying yourself needs to be allied to the basic technique to survive had this level.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Tailendfielder on February 09, 2019, 11:00:19 PM
Im a warwickshire fan but i was dead set against the return of Ian Bell. He was always the luxury player and this current setup dont need another one. As said in a bbc sport tweet earlier, ďremember when we used to moan about bells pointless hundredsĒ.  At this point weíve tried everyone, bring him back for 12, 18 months and whack him at 3 until someone steps up.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on February 09, 2019, 11:03:01 PM
I think all this talk of Buttler's "natural game" is a bit of confusion around his one day batting.

If you've watched him in first class cricket you'll know he does rein it in a fair bit. His career strike rate in red ball cricket is a touch over 60. While that's healthy I think it shows he comes in down the order and hits bad balls from tiring bowlers. He simply isn't a shot a ball player in the longer format like he is in white ball cricket
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on February 09, 2019, 11:07:48 PM
Im a warwickshire fan but i was dead set against the return of Ian Bell. He was always the luxury player and this current setup dont need another one. As said in a bbc sport tweet earlier, ďremember when we used to moan about bells pointless hundredsĒ.  At this point weíve tried everyone, bring him back for 12, 18 months and whack him at 3 until someone steps up.

I can't remember a time when England have had such a paucity of options to bat in the top 3.  Having given a lot of guys the opportunity - and with only Hammed looking remotely capable of doing what is needed of him - I would have Bell and Jason Roy in the side to face Ireland next summer.  Both have shown that they can score big runs against international bowlers which is the most important thing right now
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on February 09, 2019, 11:32:46 PM
The thing I really don't get about the recall Bell to bat 3 crowd is how they've forgotten that he was rubbish at 3 even in his prime, never mind now! I'll ruffle a feather or two... my top 7 for the first ashes test: Burns, Roy, Root, Hildreth, Buttler, Stokes, Foakes.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Tailendfielder on February 09, 2019, 11:53:41 PM
The thing I really don't get about the recall Bell to bat 3 crowd is how they've forgotten that he was rubbish at 3 even in his prime, never mind now! I'll ruffle a feather or two... my top 7 for the first ashes test: Burns, Roy, Root, Hildreth, Buttler, Stokes, Foakes.

Tend to agree but it might as well be bell as any other player whos batted 3. Why isnt Hales being conssidered but roy is?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on February 10, 2019, 12:10:37 AM
Tend to agree but it might as well be bell as any other player whos batted 3. Why isnt Hales being conssidered but roy is?
Cos Roy hasn't retired from red ball cricket. Then again, Rashid did that too.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on February 10, 2019, 01:04:41 AM
The thing I really don't get about the recall Bell to bat 3 crowd is how they've forgotten that he was rubbish at 3 even in his prime, never mind now! I'll ruffle a feather or two... my top 7 for the first ashes test: Burns, Roy, Root, Hildreth, Buttler, Stokes, Foakes.

He averaged 38 at 3, a couple of points below his overall career record but certainly not rubbish and he didn't bar in that position when he was at his best.  Right now we would love someone capable if averaging high 30s to occupy that berth
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Jlscarroll17 on February 10, 2019, 01:25:58 AM
Rashid has signed a new contract to play red ball cricket as well as white ball, but hales has not committed himself to redball.  I think Roy has the potential to develop into a red ball cricketer but he is not an opener. So still we have the problem of finding another opener
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 10, 2019, 07:09:42 AM
I really don't get this call for Roy as the next opener. I know we haven't got many options but he doesn't open for Surrey, plays hardly any red ball cricket and won't play a red ball match before the Ireland test if we do well at the World Cup.

Surely the openers slot has to go to the leading opener in the run scoring charts in the CC.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on February 10, 2019, 08:42:50 AM
The issue is that scoring runs in domestic cricket doesn't mean you can step up and do it at international level.  The 90s were beset by this problem of simply picking whoever was in the best form in first class cricket then watching them fail to make the step up.  England improved dramatically as a side under Duncan Fletcher when he based selection on players who he thought had what it would take to succeed in international cricket, not who was having success at first class level.  Bayliss by his own admission doesn't have that knowledge of the domestic game to be able to operate in this way, and the new selection panel was long overdue.

Roy had plenty of things going against him when it comes to.batting in the top order in test match cricket, but he has a record of scoring runs at international level, something which we desperately need
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 10, 2019, 09:26:48 AM
It's a tough call to slot Roy in when he hardly plays 4 day cricket and his strength is putting bat to ball when clearly our weakness is being exposed on the current tour.

What about Malan,Stoneman,Robson and Vince?

Has their time passed now and we move onto the next generation?

Of the above 4, two openers and two who could bat number 3....and Denly who is the current number 3. Perhaps England see him as very short term it's hard to tell.

Of the current younger batsman, Joe Clarke looks good, but could bat as high as 3 in an Ashes series, and Liam Livingstone also.

In an ideal world Haseeb hameed starts the season strongly, but that is a big ask after a very bad 2017 and 2018.

If Jason Roy does get selected, he would be playing out of position, we would be back to the same problem.i think he could play test cricket but he is a middle order player and that part of the team is already overloaded.

My team has Stoneman returning with a younger opening bat, Burns is worth persevering with, and it has Root at 3, that way Bairstow,stokes,butler don't go too high in the order.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 10, 2019, 09:35:44 AM
The issue is that scoring runs in domestic cricket doesn't mean you can step up and do it at international level.  The 90s were beset by this problem of simply picking whoever was in the best form in first class cricket then watching them fail to make the step up.  England improved dramatically as a side under Duncan Fletcher when he based selection on players who he thought had what it would take to succeed in international cricket, not who was having success at first class level.  Bayliss by his own admission doesn't have that knowledge of the domestic game to be able to operate in this way, and the new selection panel was long overdue.

Roy had plenty of things going against him when it comes to.batting in the top order in test match cricket, but he has a record of scoring runs at international level, something which we desperately need

Agreed it can't only be about weight of runs in the CC but that has to be a starting point otherwise what's the point in having one.

Roy has scored runs at international level but they are against a non-moving white ball on roads prepared for fun loving cricket. Not a red ball that is going to move sideways on a grass covered track.

I will happily eat these words if he opens in the Ashes and scores a 100. But it isn't going to happen.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 10, 2019, 09:48:45 AM
Im a warwickshire fan but i was dead set against the return of Ian Bell. He was always the luxury player and this current setup dont need another one. As said in a bbc sport tweet earlier, ďremember when we used to moan about bells pointless hundredsĒ.  At this point weíve tried everyone, bring him back for 12, 18 months and whack him at 3 until someone steps up.
Would it work though as he will have no Strauss cook trott Peterson  batting in front of him
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 10, 2019, 09:56:29 AM
With England not having a reserve opener maybe they  could have given Foakes a go  at opening and  said if we bat first you will be keeping wicket.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 10, 2019, 10:05:48 AM
Would it work though as he will have no Strauss cook trott Peterson  batting in front of him

I'm a huge Bell fan for what he did and the way he scored his runs, but this is a good point-sometimes the players around you can make you look better. It's an easier task batting 5 if a lot of hard work has been done already.

Stokes , butler and Bairstow all need shine off the ball to flourish long term.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on February 10, 2019, 10:51:09 AM
Bell was always a nearly man. Lacked heart and was mentally weak. Bell was the master of scoring cheap runs after the opponents had been demoralised by the better batsmen up the order.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on February 10, 2019, 02:18:17 PM
It's a tough call to slot Roy in when he hardly plays 4 day cricket and his strength is putting bat to ball when clearly our weakness is being exposed on the current tour.

What about Malan,Stoneman,Robson and Vince?

Has their time passed now and we move onto the next generation?

I'd add Lyth and Ballance to that list.  Six players who have tried test cricket and, at least in parts, been successful enough to suggest they could feasibly make it.  If one of them were to have a good start to the first class season there would be a really strong argument that they merit a call up - though against that, it should be noted that Balance was the only one to really succeed in last years awful first class batting conditions, and he did so with "personal issues" that might not suggest he is mentally right for a recall. 

My view of the six?  Half and half - Stoneman showed that he could get in against top class bowling, but struggled to kick on or rotate the strike against spin, but could learn.  Malan looked class against pace - and probably should have been our number three for this series, and Robson is young enough to come again.  Lyth I would say not, at least not in the top three - he is probably more of a middle order player at the top level.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: jamielsn15 on February 10, 2019, 02:22:41 PM
I get the perception that Bell made 'easy runs,' altbough that is somewhat lazy as after his knocks in South Africa, NZ and against the Aussies.

I struggle to see any professional test cricketer who scored almost 8000 runs, 20+ centuries, was man of the series in an ashes series which he won 5 times as mentally weak and lacking heart. To get to that level of professional sport and to succeed over 10 years takes commitment, sacrifice and talent - a lot of each.

He was a very good test player without being great, and was a key part of the most successful England side in recent memory. His time has almost certainly gone, but if he's averaging 50 in champ cricket this summer when they come to selecting a side for the ashes I'd far rather his experience and talent than many who've played since
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on February 10, 2019, 02:32:28 PM
Bell's stats are padded up by bullying subcontinent teams in England, often hiding at 5/6. Read on another forum that Bell averaged over 70 against Bangladesh/India/Pakistan/Sri Lanka in England. Throw into the mix he scored 10 centuries in 38 innings at home against poor travelling teams.

Bell was vastly overrated on the basis he very elegant/easy on the eye. Bell's average of 42 shows that he was a pocket holder for the other superior batsmen. In yeaers to come, when historians speak about us reaching world #1, Bell will merely be a footnote
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on February 10, 2019, 02:43:59 PM
Interestingly, his average of 50 was built largely on runs against the weakest side in Division 2.  Some would argue this is an allegory for his test career...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: cricketbadger on February 10, 2019, 03:06:25 PM
Buttler with a decent Jennings impression for his dismissal, feet rooted
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Duck Duck Mongoose on February 10, 2019, 03:18:07 PM
I'd like to know what kind of box YJB uses, looked to have taken a couple in there from Roach in quick succession and barely flinched
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on February 10, 2019, 03:26:54 PM
Bairstow doing Bairstow things, getting castled yet again

Is he seriously the best we have?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on February 10, 2019, 03:27:28 PM
Diva bairstow goes after a lucky innings. Bairstow bowled again! Far far too often for apparently a good player

Roots allowed him to get his way with which number he bats and that he wants to keep but his record against most teams is poor
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 10, 2019, 03:27:53 PM
Yeah me too!!

He's gone now thou bowled again, for our second best bat he gets bowled a helluva lot
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Calzehbhoy on February 10, 2019, 03:28:31 PM
Bairstow looked like a walking wicket. As soon as he came out windies looking to angle to ball in and wait for him to play a stupid shot.

How is he so highly rated by the England setup?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on February 10, 2019, 03:30:54 PM
Moeen must consider him unlucky, usually just plays and misses at those and gets away with it.

What a collapse this is
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Northern monkey on February 10, 2019, 03:31:14 PM
Mo giving catching practice
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on February 10, 2019, 03:31:51 PM
Ah, pathetic once again
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: smilley792 on February 10, 2019, 03:38:00 PM
Guess whoís back? Back again, Englandís back. Tell a friend.

Englandís back
The collapse
England back.

Nah nah nah.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Duck Duck Mongoose on February 10, 2019, 03:38:51 PM
Wood demonstrating how much he wants a bowl...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on February 10, 2019, 03:41:49 PM
Excellent control and disclipine from West Indies this morning. No freebies for England

They were slightly poor yesterday but back on it today
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Ayrtek Cricket on February 10, 2019, 03:43:44 PM
37/6 today, after battling so hard to get back into it yday all that good work has disappeared
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 10, 2019, 04:00:04 PM
Gone like a pack of cards in twenty mins.

With the change in players every test looks like everyone is playing for themselves.

Check Anderson and root changing woods position, that's a poor sign for the team. Anyone who has captained before knows your best most experienced bowler gets the field he wants, especially at the start of the innings. Anderson knows where he wants fine leg
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 10, 2019, 04:53:18 PM
Yep you allow your most experienced bowler the field he wants.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: smilley792 on February 10, 2019, 05:34:21 PM
Doesnít matter where your fine leg is when your main Bowles getting biffed back over his head.

Campbell taking andersomnout of the attack.


Moeen gets the ball. Get wood on while the balls hard!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on February 10, 2019, 05:47:27 PM
Whatís the point of playing Wood if by the time he gets a bowl the ball is 20 overs old?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: smilley792 on February 10, 2019, 05:51:01 PM
England getting battered, Anderson gets warned for being in the danger area.

This seems to happen far to often?



Anyway, ball will be soft soon, wood Might get a go............... #rootout
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 10, 2019, 05:54:35 PM
Extra pace needed to get something out of all 3 of the wickets we have played on.

I think Wood should have got on by now just to see what happens if he gets it thru quicker.

Oh we have just bought a wicket
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on February 10, 2019, 05:56:52 PM
Bairstow looked like a walking wicket. As soon as he came out windies looking to angle to ball in and wait for him to play a stupid shot.

How is he so highly rated by the England setup?

He had a purple patch and now people think thatís his level.. tbh, since he decided to get back into the white ball side heís been declining as itís compromised his mentality and technique. Regardless what ECB fans say.. heís simply not that purple patch player
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on February 10, 2019, 05:59:26 PM
Bell's stats are padded up by bullying subcontinent teams in England, often hiding at 5/6. Read on another forum that Bell averaged over 70 against Bangladesh/India/Pakistan/Sri Lanka in England. Throw into the mix he scored 10 centuries in 38 innings at home against poor travelling teams.

Bell was vastly overrated on the basis he very elegant/easy on the eye. Bell's average of 42 shows that he was a pocket holder for the other superior batsmen. In yeaers to come, when historians speak about us reaching world #1, Bell will merely be a footnote

42.. whatís our nearest current test avg in this match barring root?? 35/6??

42 looks quite good suddnely
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on February 10, 2019, 06:05:54 PM
42.. whatís our nearest current test avg in this match barring root?? 35/6??

42 looks quite good suddnely
Bell would struggle to average 22 against Australia let alone 42. His ship sailed along time ago
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on February 10, 2019, 06:06:27 PM
Moeenís pies steals a couple...
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on February 10, 2019, 06:06:34 PM
Bell would struggle to average 22 against Australia let alone 42. His ship sailed along time ago

Probably.. no one will know

Still, canít be any worse than what we have now or waiting to be given a go (Roy Etc)
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 10, 2019, 06:19:52 PM
Bit extra from Wood works . Extra pace

Make that 2 !!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on February 10, 2019, 06:21:45 PM
Iíve been a critic of wood, heís actually back up bowling at 90mph

New run up looks better then his previous.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: NT50 on February 10, 2019, 06:23:29 PM
How good is it to see Wood bowling absolute heat
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 10, 2019, 06:30:07 PM
Extra pace scrambles footwork, don't imagine he can keep up these speeds but 5 overs will do

The second was a great catch by Burns
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on February 10, 2019, 06:36:58 PM
Lovely to see actual pace in an England shirt.. keep it up lad
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: smilley792 on February 10, 2019, 06:44:35 PM
Tea come at a right time.


Let wood recharge, and then another 3 or 4 wickets in a spell after tea please.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 10, 2019, 06:46:33 PM
Shows how wrong we have got the team thou from the first test when Broad was left out.

What might of been  :)
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on February 10, 2019, 06:50:38 PM
Looks like I've missed quite a bit watching the rugby then!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on February 10, 2019, 06:54:21 PM
Suffice to say we've had the selections wrong all tour
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: 19reading87 on February 10, 2019, 06:54:48 PM
Great to see @alexhilly1492 on the TV
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Calzehbhoy on February 10, 2019, 07:27:37 PM
If Wood has seriously been bowling like this in the nets how has it taken until now for him to get a game?

Surely the management must have seen he was bowling 90+ regularly and how deadly the windies attacks were at that pace?

Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 10, 2019, 07:34:30 PM
If Wood has seriously been bowling like this in the nets how has it taken until now for him to get a game?

Surely the management must have seen he was bowling 90+ regularly and how deadly the windies attacks were at that pace?



He played 3 lions games on the trot to prove his fitness but history shows tall and quick bowlers do well out there. The pitches seemed difficult to read in Barbados but after that you would think the penny would drop. Curran is a good player but whoever thought he could go from 3rd or 4th seamer to opening the bowling in place of Broad needs their head examined.

All games the selection has been suspect, Foakes should be playing here.

Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on February 10, 2019, 07:36:46 PM
Commentators getting far too carried away with woodís spell. Letís not forget itís the windies - ranked at 8

Good spell but windies batsmen havenít played him well, hasnít really moved off the straight
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on February 10, 2019, 07:51:47 PM
Commentators getting far too carried away with woodís spell. Letís not forget itís the windies - ranked at 8

Good spell but windies batsmen havenít played him well, hasnít really moved off the straight

We are good at over hyping .. world class
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 10, 2019, 08:01:05 PM
He played 3 lions games on the trot to prove his fitness but history shows tall and quick bowlers do well out there. The pitches seemed difficult to read in Barbados but after that you would think the penny would drop. Curran is a good player but whoever thought he could go from 3rd or 4th seamer to opening the bowling in place of Broad needs their head examined.

All games the selection has been suspect, Foakes should be playing here.

After watching Jennings as an opening bat.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Big Mac on February 10, 2019, 08:14:11 PM
I scoffed at people continuing to hype Wood as a serious pace threat based on nothing more than a T20 spell to Root a couple of years ago when he was running in and bowl barely quicker than Woakes over the last few England appearances but he's managed to get himself healthy for the first time in forever and his new run up seems to have worked wonders. I'm glad to eat some humble pie on this one!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Big Mac on February 10, 2019, 08:37:09 PM
haha amazing recovery by Broad after making a meal of that catch
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: smilley792 on February 10, 2019, 08:41:54 PM
Wood five for! Well done that man.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 10, 2019, 08:55:01 PM
Sweepstake...... how many is Jennings getting???
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Calzehbhoy on February 10, 2019, 08:58:56 PM
Heíll get a scratchy 30-45 which will be enough for the selectors to keep him for the Ashes where heíll be found out again.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on February 10, 2019, 09:17:00 PM
Sweepstake...... how many is Jennings getting???

Ton

Then he will be undroppable again like SL
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mpt7 on February 10, 2019, 09:36:22 PM
Tired legs, tired bodies, last game of the series. Series won

Bowled all day yesterday- now theyíre bowling again.

Jennings could get loads!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Coach on February 10, 2019, 11:22:38 PM
Really interesting series so far.

Mark Woodís interview about his change in run up was fascinating to listen to, made a lot of sense. Exciting to see an England seamer bowling quickly (even if the speeds are ďturned upĒ for tv!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on February 10, 2019, 11:31:08 PM
I would have Wood no where near my team when playing at home on seaming pitches and his average of 47 reflects this.  Conversely he averages 26 away from home where a completely different skill set is needed.

In the last ashes series we saw a bunch of 78-82 mph seamers acting as cannon fodder during the tests, then the ODIs start and Wood comes in and bounces Warner out in the first game.  It is a shame after the momentum from Sri Lanka to lose it due to poor selections here. 

I don't have much sympathy for the batsmen, but it can't be easy walking out to bat against a hostile pace attack then have to sit back and watch the opposition getting served up with floaty medium pace

Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: six and out on February 11, 2019, 08:31:33 AM
I would have Wood no where near my team when playing at home on seaming pitches and his average of 47 reflects this.  Conversely he averages 26 away from home where a completely different skill set is needed.

In the last ashes series we saw a bunch of 78-82 mph seamers acting as cannon fodder during the tests, then the ODIs start and Wood comes in and bounces Warner out in the first game.  It is a shame after the momentum from Sri Lanka to lose it due to poor selections here. 

I don't have much sympathy for the batsmen, but it can't be easy walking out to bat against a hostile pace attack then have to sit back and watch the opposition getting served up with floaty medium pace

I do agree that Wood hasn't (and still might not be) as effective at home but I would love the 3rd seamer spot in the Ashes to go to someone with a bit of x factor. Whether it be Wood, Archer, Stone or whoever, just so we have something different to stick it up the Aussies for once.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on February 11, 2019, 08:44:30 AM
Sticking it up the Aussies in English coditions is easy - you just need the ball to move off the straight and they'll nick off to their hearts content!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on February 11, 2019, 10:12:56 AM
Sticking it up the Aussies in English coditions is easy - you just need the ball to move off the straight and they'll nick off to their hearts content!

Think pat Cummings would be doing the same.

But England batting is slightly better and have the bowlers in home conditions. Donít see England losing, then again no one saw England losing this series
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: stevat on February 11, 2019, 10:32:46 AM
Cummins is in fantastic form at the moment, still a long way to go between now and then though.  Always liked Wood, he's got a nippy, skiddy sort of thing going on and can be very destructive when he's fit and in form, just a shame he's had so many problems with injuries over the years.  With regards to the attack, I always thought the way to go was to try and give yourself as many options as you can, i.e. don't pick 3 low 80s swing bowlers in the same line up.  Whatever the conditions are they will suit some bowlers over others, so give your team as many chances of finding the player for the conditions as possible.  Even in England you get days where it's not moving much through the air, and then you need someone to hit the seam like Broad or get it through quicker like Wood. 

Once you find a player in form for the conditions, they can reap the benefits whilst the others hold up their end and chip in now and then.

On the batting front, I don't think we're miles ahead of Australia once you chuck Smith and Warner back in.  They could do with an all-rounder like Stokes, but they've players like Wade who could do the Buttler type role should they actually get picked - some of their selections in the last couple of years have been somewhat bizarre to say the least.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: alexhilly1492 on February 11, 2019, 11:09:00 AM
Really interesting series so far.

Mark Woodís interview about his change in run up was fascinating to listen to, made a lot of sense. Exciting to see an England seamer bowling quickly (even if the speeds are ďturned upĒ for tv!

Speeds may be turned up but he was clearly the quickest bowler England used and looked quicker than Gabriel (bowled from same end)

Based on how far back the England cordon was compared to the windies for Gabriel we know bowls 90 mph Wood was above that regularly the ball he got chase with was rapid and the hat trick ball even quicker!

Was an absolute pleasure to watch!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on February 11, 2019, 12:28:05 PM
Think pat Cummings would be doing the same.

Cummins is great, but I'm not sure how well he would do in English conditions - he tends to bang the ball in and becomes a bit floaty when he tries to locate a much fuller length. 
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on February 11, 2019, 02:02:10 PM
Ah, the first ball of the day
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 11, 2019, 02:05:47 PM
What was Burns thinking first ball of the day
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on February 11, 2019, 02:15:23 PM
pretty village it has to be said. 
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 11, 2019, 02:25:30 PM
Paul strechered off   Looks a bad injury and simple  catch dropped off Denly Gabriel looks unimpressed.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on February 11, 2019, 02:36:11 PM
Perfect time for the batsmen to fill their boots. One bowler down and series won.

Nothing like those all important runs when there is no pressure. Then to hear the usual "we adapted to conditions a little late due to lack of warm up games"
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on February 11, 2019, 03:23:07 PM
What a way for Jennings to end his test career
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 11, 2019, 03:28:38 PM
The truth is though he played to early and missed it
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on February 11, 2019, 04:54:05 PM
50 for Denly, batted lad

Is that enough for him to cement the no.3 spot for the Ireland Test (and possibly beyond)?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SOULMAN1012 on February 11, 2019, 05:10:20 PM
50 for Denly, batted lad

Is that enough for him to cement the no.3 spot for the Ireland Test (and possibly beyond)?

Hopefully especially if he carries on and Tonís up should at least keep the slot for the Ireland Test and also will be playing Div1 next season so highest standard to hopefully score some early season championship runs. Letís hope he and Root our windies totally out of sight
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 11, 2019, 05:26:16 PM
Don't see why not, he's a good player with a lot of experience.
Delighted he's got a score.

Remember he is in the spot no one wants so that may work in his favour.

We are still short of an opener thou, Jennings needs some technical help from somewhere, maybe it will be whoever gets championship runs when the season starts.

Stoneman,Robson....could be anyone
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SOULMAN1012 on February 11, 2019, 05:31:02 PM
Denlys innings comes to an end, shame was hoping for a big score from the Kent man
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 11, 2019, 06:04:14 PM
Personally wouldn't take to much from an  innings against a depleted bowling attack and windies side  playing like a team with a series win.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on February 11, 2019, 08:35:19 PM
Roots quickly becoming a flat track bully
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: liscon12 on February 11, 2019, 08:55:15 PM
Thing that annoys me is that his hundreds have come when either the series is already lost or won, he doesn't make contributions that really count towards a series win
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: smilley792 on February 11, 2019, 08:58:03 PM
Dead rubber Roooooottttttttttttt
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on February 11, 2019, 09:28:16 PM
Thought Denly looked very good today.  On debut he looked nervous, which is perhaps understandable when you don't open currently at first class level but looked composed today and he doesn't have any obvious technical failings which is mo4r than can be said for two lads above him.  It's not a great endorsement of county cricket when Burns and Jennings have been big run scorers in the first class game but have fundamental flaws with their games.

I was listening to the tv commentary earlier and Ian Bishop we mentioning that the problems the Windies have in selecting a side is that the standard of first class cricket is so low that the step up to the test game is massive.  That feels very much like where we are at the moment. 
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 11, 2019, 09:44:02 PM
Denly is a plus today and he would of been under pressure maybe playing for a spot in the Ashes. England have not shown a lot of patience with players 30+ recently.

Roots ton was pointless they are a bowler down minus there Captain and series won, he needs to make runs when the pressure is on as others have said above.

Rapidly losing faith in those making decisions above the direction the team goes, I think they are creating a selfish mindset in the players and the gobbledegook selection is a joke.

My first test match live was 1984, I was in the West Indian end with mates and they have always been my second favourite team I'm not unhappy they have won.

No doubt at all they deserved it,they are well led and play for each other.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: jonny77 on February 11, 2019, 10:00:01 PM
So we'd all have been happy if Root wouldn't have made a score then? He's copped for a few decent balls this series, so think he's been a touch unlucky. He's probably the one bat we have who could be considered world class. So in my opinion (and at a time most are bemoaning our lack of talent in that department) maybe we should be grateful to have him and stop downgrading what was a very good knock. Just a thought.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: liscon12 on February 11, 2019, 10:11:27 PM
So we'd all have been happy if Root wouldn't have made a score then? He's copped for a few decent balls this series, so think he's been a touch unlucky. He's probably the one bat we have who could be considered world class. So in my opinion (and at a time most are bemoaning our lack of talent in that department) maybe we should be grateful to have him and stop downgrading what was a very good knock. Just a thought.
I'm not saying that I'd have preferred to not see him get runs, I think my opinion is based on frustration more than anything.

We all know how good he is and that he could become one of the all time England greats, but to become a great you need to make contributions and to churn out match/series winning performances. At the moment he isn't doing that and his scores have come in dead rubber games.

I know could be argued that Cook has made some of his big scores in similar situations but that Ashes series away in 2010/11 will live on in my memory as something special and the reason why he's a great of the game.

I also take your comment about the pitches and balls he's copped this tour so I do have some sympathy. Going forward into the Ashes he really needs to make an impact early on, not to silence me but rather for the sake of the team and to regain the little urn.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on February 11, 2019, 10:18:30 PM
I wouldnít put root in the class of KW, Kohli and Smith

Stewart on the debate did - but heís never scored a test 100 in Australia and had a poor record there. If that was any other player for another team everyone would be all over that stat ďcanít bat in Aussie conditionsĒ
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: alexhilly1492 on February 11, 2019, 10:31:32 PM
That's all rubbish, root batted well and it certainly wasn't easy with gabriel, roach and Joseph bowling quick!

Yes it's too late but it was still tough batting!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: LateBloomer on February 11, 2019, 11:07:33 PM
I wouldnít put root in the class of KW, Kohli and Smith

Stewart on the debate did - but heís never scored a test 100 in Australia and had a poor record there. If that was any other player for another team everyone would be all over that stat ďcanít bat in Aussie conditionsĒ

Williamson averages under 36 in both England and India and a meagre 21 in SA. His career average is also lower than Roots

Granted Smith and VK are on another level but for me Root and Williamson eat at the same table
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on February 11, 2019, 11:25:15 PM
Thing that annoys me is that his hundreds have come when either the series is already lost or won, he doesn't make contributions that really count towards a series win

This did sound like nonsense to me so I had a quick look over dinner to see the truth of the matter.  It turns out that of his 16 test match 100s, only 2 (his 14th and 16th) were scored when the series had already been one or lost.  Scoring 14 of his 16 100s in games which contributed to the outcome of the series sounds like a rather a good ratio to me.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on February 11, 2019, 11:31:45 PM
I wouldnít put root in the class of KW, Kohli and Smith

Stewart on the debate did - but heís never scored a test 100 in Australia and had a poor record there. If that was any other player for another team everyone would be all over that stat ďcanít bat in Aussie conditionsĒ

Root averages more in Australia than Kohli does in England.  Doesn't mean Kohli isn't a top player.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: NT50 on February 12, 2019, 12:16:14 AM
Not sure if youíve seen a clip going round on twitter, but it would appear Gabriel has aimed a homophobic slur at Joe Root (The Clip is of Joe saying ďthereís nothing wrong with being GayĒ)

Hopefully heíll face proper action if found guilty by the ICC. Would be a shame if this were to be brushed off.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on February 12, 2019, 08:16:22 AM
Doesn't seem like anyone's actually anything reported, but class of Root to handle it the way he did.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on February 12, 2019, 08:45:17 AM
Not sure if youíve seen a clip going round on twitter, but it would appear Gabriel has aimed a homophobic slur at Joe Root (The Clip is of Joe saying ďthereís nothing wrong with being GayĒ)

Hopefully heíll face proper action if found guilty by the ICC. Would be a shame if this were to be brushed off.

Unacceptable - Gabriel should receive a ban to send a message down to grassroots level. The amount of times I hear homophobic comments on a saturday. The usual six or gay is heard a few times in the season.

Time leagues clamp down on this too
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Warneymonster on February 12, 2019, 09:06:52 AM
It will be difficult for the ICC to do anything about it as it doesn't seem like the umpires or joe root want to say what was said, a shame as its unacceptable
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: mo_town on February 12, 2019, 09:42:56 AM
With all due respect, Joe Root is definitely not in the class of Kohli, KW and Smith. The way these guys have excelled in all formats says a lot about their technical excellence. Jow Root is a wonderful batsman but definitely not in the same league as Kohli, KW and Smith.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: horseman on February 12, 2019, 10:16:13 AM
Unacceptable - Gabriel should receive a ban to send a message down to grassroots level. The amount of times I hear homophobic comments on a saturday. The usual six or gay is heard a few times in the season.

Time leagues clamp down on this too

Stone Age comments on the field. Itís ď6 or LGBTĒ nowadays


I jest , before the PC police come up for air.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 12, 2019, 10:31:56 AM
I think Root has handled this the right way so I disagree with some fellow for formites. Gabriel has got a warning and Root is basically saying he won't elaborate as what is said on the field says on the field. There's a difficult line of course as you could deem certain things said way over and above what is acceptable.

I think with the modern players we need to cut them a bit of slack,everyone can capture things on mobiles and there are microphones everywhere picking up things said in the heat of battle.

I'm not condoning any homophobic sledging but far as I can see Root handled this well so credit to him.I'm not Roots biggest fan either after this tour...but not everything can be laid at the Captains door-we have a whole raft of management out there.

Fat as kholi,Williamson and Smith go, totally agree, Root is our best player by miles but forth when compared to the others.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: NT50 on February 12, 2019, 11:58:18 AM
Heat of the battle is no excuse and is very easy to blow it off as a straight person.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: LateBloomer on February 12, 2019, 12:01:30 PM
With all due respect, Joe Root is definitely not in the class of Kohli, KW and Smith. The way these guys have excelled in all formats says a lot about their technical excellence. Jow Root is a wonderful batsman but definitely not in the same league as Kohli, KW and Smith.

Root averages 5 runs more than KW and 10 more than Smith in ODI cricket. If anyone excels in that format I would say its Joe Root

I discount VK completely from this arguement because he's head and shoulders above anyone else but Roots clearly better than the other 2 in 50 over cricket

Has any footage of Gabriel mouthing off surfaced yet?

Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: JB on February 12, 2019, 12:14:49 PM
I was watching last night and it looked like he was saying things under his breath, at one point it looked like Stokes was gesturing that he couldn't hear him
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: jonny77 on February 12, 2019, 12:46:50 PM
I think Root has handled this the right way so I disagree with some fellow for formites. Gabriel has got a warning and Root is basically saying he won't elaborate as what is said on the field says on the field. There's a difficult line of course as you could deem certain things said way over and above what is acceptable.

I think with the modern players we need to cut them a bit of slack,everyone can capture things on mobiles and there are microphones everywhere picking up things said in the heat of battle.

I'm not condoning any homophobic sledging but far as I can see Root handled this well so credit to him.I'm not Roots biggest fan either after this tour...but not everything can be laid at the Captains door-we have a whole raft of management out there.

Fat as kholi,Williamson and Smith go, totally agree, Root is our best player by miles but forth when compared to the others.

In a way that is almost condoning it imo, as we're 'cutting them some slack' as it's in the heat of battle. Sorry but I don't buy that, it's wrong plain and simple and shouldn't be allowed. I don't mind a bit of sledging, but there's a million things you can say without using racist or homophobic language. Roots handled it well but Gabriel should be investigated and if found guilty should be punished. Its the only way to eradicate this sort of stuff from the game.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: FattusCattus on February 12, 2019, 01:11:12 PM
and is very easy to blow it off as a straight person.

If it was that easy to blow it off as a straight person - I'd never leave the house!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 12, 2019, 01:36:49 PM
In a way that is almost condoning it imo, as we're 'cutting them some slack' as it's in the heat of battle. Sorry but I don't buy that, it's wrong plain and simple and shouldn't be allowed. I don't mind a bit of sledging, but there's a million things you can say without using racist or homophobic language. Roots handled it well but Gabriel should be investigated and if found guilty should be punished. Its the only way to eradicate this sort of stuff from the game.

That's fine that is your opinion and there will be plenty that agree with you. It's a difficult line you have highlighted yourself 'a bit of sledging' I'm not sure how that could be quantified or dealt with by the authorities, and therein lies the problem.

Generally I'm of the opinion the umpires are in charge of the game and they saw fit to warn Gabriel.
People have different views on sledging and where the line is.

I meant more to highlight how Root dealt with it, there's lots I don't like myself about him but I thought he handled that very well, his response on the field and off it could not have been better.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on February 12, 2019, 02:14:53 PM
Stokesy's starting the car, could be a fun hour or so
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on February 12, 2019, 02:32:15 PM
I think Root has handled this the right way so I disagree with some fellow for formites. Gabriel has got a warning and Root is basically saying he won't elaborate as what is said on the field says on the field. There's a difficult line of course as you could deem certain things said way over and above what is acceptable.

I think with the modern players we need to cut them a bit of slack,everyone can capture things on mobiles and there are microphones everywhere picking up things said in the heat of battle.

I'm not condoning any homophobic sledging but far as I can see Root handled this well so credit to him.I'm not Roots biggest fan either after this tour...but not everything can be laid at the Captains door-we have a whole raft of management out there.

Fat as kholi,Williamson and Smith go, totally agree, Root is our best player by miles but forth when compared to the others.

ĎHear of battleí?? Ever been in an actual battle ?? Sport in no way compares and this is a consistent line trotted out to allow people to be abusive in the name of sport or being Ďcompetitiveí.. tosh.. controlling your emotions and maintaining discipline is all part of sport and most especially... professional sport.

Long ban required to start sending a message but as always.. bugger all of relevance will happen
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on February 12, 2019, 02:46:37 PM
Blinder of a catch from Mo
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on February 12, 2019, 02:59:02 PM
Stuart Broad and being dropped in the slips, name a finer combo
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on February 12, 2019, 03:05:58 PM
Turns out Buttler has had 24 catching chances for England and dropped 10 times. That's awful for a bloke who's trained as a keeper.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: jonny77 on February 12, 2019, 03:13:06 PM
That's fine that is your opinion and there will be plenty that agree with you. It's a difficult line you have highlighted yourself 'a bit of sledging' I'm not sure how that could be quantified or dealt with by the authorities, and therein lies the problem.

Generally I'm of the opinion the umpires are in charge of the game and they saw fit to warn Gabriel.
People have different views on sledging and where the line is.

I meant more to highlight how Root dealt with it, there's lots I don't like myself about him but I thought he handled that very well, his response on the field and off it could not have been better.

It's quite clear, no racist or homophobic language. This is in line with the laws of the game, so there is no grey area. Sledging is fine with me if it's not personal, racist or homophobic. Any decent human being should be able to figure the line out surely?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 12, 2019, 03:24:18 PM
It's quite clear, no racist or homophobic language. This is in line with the laws of the game, so there is no grey area. Sledging is fine with me if it's not personal, racist or homophobic. Any decent human being should be able to figure the line out surely?

I respect your view and how you interpret it, the umpires dealt with it on the field. Let's see if anything further comes of it. I'm sure the match officials are decent human beings.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on February 12, 2019, 03:31:03 PM
It's quite clear, no racist or homophobic language. This is in line with the laws of the game, so there is no grey area. Sledging is fine with me if it's not personal, racist or homophobic. Any decent human being should be able to figure the line out surely?
Trouble is, there isn't any mention of anything like that in the laws of the game. Before we all climb on the the high horse it's worth bearing in mind that homosexuality is illegal currently or until very recently in Dubai (where the ICC is based), Trinidad (where Gabriel is from), St Lucia (where the game is being played), and in 7/12 of the test nations. Probably hard to expect much more severe than a warning.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on February 12, 2019, 03:32:38 PM
Turns out Buttler has had 24 catching chances for England and dropped 10 times. That's awful for a bloke who's trained as a keeper.
It is about time they moved Buttler out of there! Not that surprising though, keeping and slipping are wildly different.

Didn't get to watch the spell the other day but wow does Wood look better without the daft runup!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: rickjames on February 12, 2019, 03:54:20 PM
I'd have more confidence in it if he didn't fall over all the time
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: smilley792 on February 12, 2019, 03:58:17 PM
Wood got shay hope out then by merely being mark wood.

Wasnít an exceptional ball, didnít bounce high. But as it was short of a length. Hope crapped himself jumped and just chucked his bat out there.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 12, 2019, 05:54:16 PM
careless running by Hetmyer  paid the price.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: smilley792 on February 12, 2019, 06:46:29 PM
Interesting stat.


Since buttlers recall. Only pujara and kohli have more innings of 100 plus balls than buttler.

Pujara 9innings
Kohli 8
Buttler 7


Add to that buttlers scored more 50s than any other English batsman since heís recall, and youíve got to admit, it was a good recall.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: edge on February 12, 2019, 07:00:40 PM
Buttler's been great since coming back in, had the confidence to think and adapt to the situation better than anyone else in the side. If he could just convert a few more of the fifties into tons, though.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: jonny77 on February 12, 2019, 07:34:04 PM
Trouble is, there isn't any mention of anything like that in the laws of the game. Before we all climb on the the high horse it's worth bearing in mind that homosexuality is illegal currently or until very recently in Dubai (where the ICC is based), Trinidad (where Gabriel is from), St Lucia (where the game is being played), and in 7/12 of the test nations. Probably hard to expect much more severe than a warning.

My mistake then, I'd read that homophobic language was covered by the racism abuse law. Regardless of whether it's illegal in certain countries though, imo it's not acceptable in the game, which is global. Get where you're coming from tho.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: jonny77 on February 12, 2019, 07:36:40 PM
Great spell by Anderson earlier from what I saw. He'll be sorely missed when he retires.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: ppccopener on February 12, 2019, 08:02:02 PM
Buttler's been great since coming back in, had the confidence to think and adapt to the situation better than anyone else in the side. If he could just convert a few more of the fifties into tons, though.

He has been excellent, watching him bat in tests is the reason I don't buy 'this is the way I play' because he of all the batsman has adapted to the pitch and the game situation.

If he can do it surely others can? Or is that too simplistic?
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: csnew on February 12, 2019, 08:46:41 PM
All rosey again - stunning victory etc against a side who had already won the series and was missing their best player.
Dead rubber wickets and runs when the series is lost

Great series win for windies
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on February 12, 2019, 09:14:51 PM
He has been excellent, watching him bat in tests is the reason I don't buy 'this is the way I play' because he of all the batsman has adapted to the pitch and the game situation.

If he can do it surely others can? Or is that too simplistic?

To save typing it all again I'll just quote myself.

I think all this talk of Buttler's "natural game" is a bit of confusion around his one day batting.

If you've watched him in first class cricket you'll know he does rein it in a fair bit. His career strike rate in red ball cricket is a touch over 60. While that's healthy I think it shows he comes in down the order and hits bad balls from tiring bowlers. He simply isn't a shot a ball player in the longer format like he is in white ball cricket

As nobody actually watches Championship cricket I understand why people think of Buttler as an explosive player. However, while he does adapt to suit the pitch and situation, he doesn't go into red ball games trying to biff it like it's a One Day game, contrary to the popular belief on here.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: SD on February 12, 2019, 10:22:47 PM
I put more weight on a player having the technique and mental toughness to score runs at the highest levels rather than whether they are a considered a specialist  in a particular format.  The best batsmen will score runs whatever the format.

England showed good resilience to win the test.  Having been put in on another sporting wicket and having lost early wickets and with the series gone, it would have been easy to fold in the manner of some of the recent tours to Australia, but they stuck together as a group.  If only we could find a top 3, this would be a very decent side with the options available
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on February 12, 2019, 10:44:34 PM
As nobody actually watches Championship cricket

A myth.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: LateBloomer on February 12, 2019, 10:54:40 PM
All rosey again - stunning victory etc against a side who had already won the series and was missing their best player.
Dead rubber wickets and runs when the series is lost

Great series win for windies

You are fast turning into Gerry NZ
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Manormanic on February 12, 2019, 11:03:13 PM
A myth.

Quite.  The weird thing is, both times I have seen Buttler in the Championship, he has been bumped up the order to get on with things.  Small sample size, I appreciate!
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: LateBloomer on February 12, 2019, 11:04:01 PM
If only we could find a top 3, this would be a very decent side with the options available

Could not agree more. The fact we've been competitive with these key positions missing bodes well for when we do find someone.

Id persevere with Burns for the Ashes, he deserves a home series after weight of runs in CC and debuting overseas.

The other two spots Id leave for whoever does well in the Championship season before the Ashes. But definitely not Jennings!

Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: golders on February 12, 2019, 11:06:00 PM
So what is everyoneí Top 3 for the Ashes? Would be tempted to go Burns, Roy, Bell...a bit harsh on Denly perhaps but if he wasnít dropped in the 2md innings Of the test just finished,it would have been 4 innings without a score.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Kulli on February 12, 2019, 11:07:20 PM
Interesting stat.


Since buttlers recall. Only pujara and kohli have more innings of 100 plus balls than buttler.

Pujara 9innings
Kohli 8
Buttler 7


Add to that buttlers scored more 50s than any other English batsman since heís recall, and youíve got to admit, it was a good recall.
No idea of what it shows, but think that stat needs to be qualified with how many innings they have  all played in that period.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: shadowlight on February 13, 2019, 12:57:56 AM
Congratulation to England.

Now let's return to regularly schedule program about how good England is and how they are going to thump Aussies.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Seniorplayer on February 13, 2019, 08:47:12 AM
To save typing it all again I'll just quote myself.

As nobody actually watches Championship cricket I understand why people think of Buttler as an explosive player. However, while he does adapt to suit the pitch and situation, he doesn't go into red ball games trying to biff it like it's a One Day game, contrary to the popular belief on here.
Not correct I watch Worcester.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on February 13, 2019, 09:07:25 AM
No idea of what it shows, but think that stat needs to be qualified with how many innings they have  all played in that period.
Buttler 22 innings
Kohli 19 innings
Pujara 18 innings
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on February 13, 2019, 09:11:30 AM
So what is everyoneí Top 3 for the Ashes? Would be tempted to go Burns, Roy, Bell...a bit harsh on Denly perhaps but if he wasnít dropped in the 2md innings Of the test just finished,it would have been 4 innings without a score.
Unless Australia turn up with Glamorgan's bowling attack Bell's a no go. Roy's hardly good enough for Surrey in their middle order, definitely not good enough for Test cricket as an opener
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on February 13, 2019, 09:16:22 AM
Buttler, one of my all time favourite players, has had an excellent return to Test cricket but to be a longer term option he needs to play more county cricket. Buttler has a mere 5 red ball hundreds in his entire professional career. He often seems to lose concentration after crossing fifty. He needs to learn how to sustain the tempo for long innings, as it's highly improbable that he will be scoring multiple 50/60 ball Test hundreds.
Title: Re: England tour of West Indies
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on February 13, 2019, 09:19:38 AM
Sarcasm clearly doesn't come across on the internet, does it...

My "nobody actually watches Championship cricket" comment was intended as a joke.While it's not thousands, there is usually a reasonable crowd in for Championship games.

Of course, those of us who go know that though, and would have hopefully seen the irony of the generic statement that gets thrown around?  ;)

However, the number of people who think Buttler only plays one day style innings is staggering. For every one who does follow the domestic game and knows he's a very adaptable player, there seems to be four or five shouting about him playing his natural game and smashing everything into the stands. This is just one aspect to the game of a very talented player!