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General Cricket => Latest Matches => Topic started by: Manormanic on September 13, 2019, 11:41:17 AM

Title: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Manormanic on September 13, 2019, 11:41:17 AM
So, the selectors have already intimated that the squad for the tour to New Zealand will have quite an experimental look to it - though they have not confirmed what that means specifically, I wonder what we all would like to see for those two Tests?

I decided to rest everyone who plays all three formats in my side, save Archer who has just come into the squad - so no Root, Stokes, Buttler, Bairstow, Woakes (Roy or Ali either FWIW) - before realising that this left almost no experience in the batting line up.  I didn't select Dawid Malan, despite him being in mind for South Africa.  Because of that, and the inevitable nibble in Kiwi pitches, I went for a slightly odd either/or selection in the squad to give myself the option of playing six batsmen whilst keeping five bowling options in a relatively light 14 man squad.  Broad travels as a back up seamer and to share his experience.

Burns, Sibley, Northeast, Denly, Lyth, POPE, Rhodes or Mullaney, Foakes (w), S Curran, Archer, Broad, Gregory, Porter, Wood (or J Overton if Wood not fit), Leach

I reckon that'd then leave me fielding:

Burns (c)
Sibley
Lyth
Denly
POPE
Rhodes/Mullaney
Foakes (w)
Curran
Gregory
Archer
Leach
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: jonny77 on September 13, 2019, 11:51:29 AM
No Pope? Not sure Lyth will get anywhere near either tbf. I agree though it's a good chance to test some players against a good attack in what could be testing conditions.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: LEACHY48 on September 13, 2019, 12:12:22 PM
My personal selections would be:

Burns
Sibley
Hain
Ballance
Pope
Northeast
Foakes
Root
Stokes
Archer
Broad
Anderson
Curran
Wood (if fit)
Gregory
J Overton

With one of the last 2 missing out if wood is fit.

Likely playing 11 of

Burns
Sibley
Hain
Root
Stokes
Pope
Foakes
Curran
Archer
Broad
Anderson
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: Manormanic on September 13, 2019, 12:33:08 PM
No Pope? Not sure Lyth will get anywhere near either tbf. I agree though it's a good chance to test some players against a good attack in what could be testing conditions.

Ooh, interesting omission on my part - I was looking at my squad and wondering why there was no spare batsman, that'd be the reason.  Time for some judicious editing.

Lyth, I agree, probably won't.  My thinking was, he has test experience, has had a good season in Division One, and brings top notch slip fielding and useful off spin to the mix. 
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: Buzz on September 13, 2019, 01:13:48 PM
I would note that the kiwi test team is very good.
The ECB has said they are resting people from the T20 games, but I expect them to take a full squad to New Zealand.

Of the openers they will pick
Burns, Sibley and Zac Crawley
Then we will see the usual suspects
Denly, Buttler, Root, Stokes, Bairstow, Pope
Foakes may get a trip, but will likely not go because he will show YJB up.
Then we will see
Curran, Woakes, Archer, Broad, Anderson and Leach.
Plus probably one more seamer.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: FattusCattus on September 13, 2019, 04:59:58 PM
Woakes looks like he could do with a rest. Tempted to rest Bairstow and Stokes too.

Wouldnít mind seeing Malan given another chance as well as a Virdi and the Lancs quick - Javid is it?
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: Manormanic on September 13, 2019, 05:37:21 PM
Mahmood, I think you mean?
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: potzy248 on September 13, 2019, 06:14:52 PM
Cant wait for this. My home ground is hosting its first ever test match there against England in November. Hopefully you bring most of the stars. I'm sure the players and visitors will enjoy the local area. https://www.sunlive.co.nz/news/195303-demand-tauranga-not-slowing.html (https://www.sunlive.co.nz/news/195303-demand-tauranga-not-slowing.html)
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: FattusCattus on September 19, 2019, 09:48:19 AM
When is the squad announced?

Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: rickjames on September 19, 2019, 09:49:43 AM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2019/09/18/jos-buttler-poised-take-gloves-jonny-bairstow-englands-tour/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2019/09/18/jos-buttler-poised-take-gloves-jonny-bairstow-englands-tour/)

I'm genuinely baffled. What has Bairstow got to do to get dropped?
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: alexhilly1492 on September 19, 2019, 10:01:33 AM
seems like their going to try a few players in all formats which is good.

If Bairstow performs as a batter only its basically him starting again anyway

looks like we could enter the first test with:

burns
sibley
denly
root
stokes
bairstow
buttler (WK)
woakes
archer
leach
broad

all too familar but its the team weve all wanted for ages
could also argue that sam curran should play ahead of woakes! it swings in NZ!!!
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on September 19, 2019, 10:02:06 AM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2019/09/18/jos-buttler-poised-take-gloves-jonny-bairstow-englands-tour/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2019/09/18/jos-buttler-poised-take-gloves-jonny-bairstow-englands-tour/)

I'm genuinely baffled. What has Bairstow got to do to get dropped?

Been consistently mediocre for the majority of his international career?
Thrown his toys out the pram once too often?
Not been the best keeper in the playing XI, let alone England? 

Edit, I've read the article and he's due to play as just a batsman.
As he's never scored a hundred after keeping wicket in a Test match (the last man to do so was Jos Buttler, when he took the gloves from an injured Bairstow), maybe they feel he could score more runs without the burden of keeping?
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: alexhilly1492 on September 19, 2019, 10:02:19 AM
i know the article said pope was set to play but its our selectors!!!!
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: rickjames on September 19, 2019, 10:08:03 AM
I would like Pope at 5 followed by Stokes at 6. I still think Foakes should be keeping, but it doesn't appear to be likely.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: Warneymonster on September 19, 2019, 10:24:16 AM
would like to see this for the first test

burns
sibley
denly
root
stokes
buttler
foakes
curran
archer
leach
broad

in squad
billings
pope
Northeast
Anderson
Z Crawley

would be giving roy, woakes & Bairstow a break. trent boult could have roy and Bairstow in all sorts of trouble.

also consider the workload on archer, no point in picking him on slow decks where Anderson/curran will do all the damage with swing
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: jjelricksmith on September 19, 2019, 10:56:07 AM
would like to see this for the first test

burns
sibley
denly
root
stokes
buttler
foakes
curran
archer
leach
broad

in squad
billings
pope
Northeast
Anderson
Z Crawley

would be giving roy, woakes & Bairstow a break. trent boult could have roy and Bairstow in all sorts of trouble.

also consider the workload on archer, no point in picking him on slow decks where Anderson/curran will do all the damage with swing

Can already imagine Jimmy bowling 75mph with the keeper up. He's 37 years old, wouldn't be surprised if he is done now. He bowled 30 overs or something in that lancs game then got injured again. The selectors wont want to pick a 1 game option to take out there.

Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: rickjames on September 23, 2019, 01:49:02 PM
Bairstow dropped for the test side.

https://www.ecb.co.uk/england/men/news/1356152/england-name-squads-for-new-zealand-tour (https://www.ecb.co.uk/england/men/news/1356152/england-name-squads-for-new-zealand-tour)

Chuffed to see the likes of Banton and Brown in the T20 side as well.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: alexevo94 on September 23, 2019, 01:55:31 PM
Bairstow dropped for the test side.

https://www.ecb.co.uk/england/men/news/1356152/england-name-squads-for-new-zealand-tour (https://www.ecb.co.uk/england/men/news/1356152/england-name-squads-for-new-zealand-tour)

Chuffed to see the likes of Banton and Brown in the T20 side as well.


Couldnít believe he wasnít in the squad at all
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: shadowlight on September 23, 2019, 02:15:33 PM
My starting 11 for test: Burns, Sibley, Denly, Root, Stokes, Pope, Buttler, Woakes, Leach, Archer, Broad

Edit: I do not see Buttler in the T20 squad, does that mean Billings keeps or will it be Bairstow?
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on September 23, 2019, 02:28:45 PM
Bairstow's omission would have been less surprising had Foakes been included.  Foakes has had a poor season with the bat, mind you.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on September 23, 2019, 02:40:20 PM
Quote
England squad for two Tests in New Zealand:
Joe Root (Yorkshire) captain, Jofra Archer (Sussex), Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire), Rory Burns (Surrey), Jos Buttler (Lancashire), Zak Crawley (Kent), Sam Curran (Surrey), Joe Denly (Kent), Jack Leach (Somerset), Saqib Mahmood (Lancashire), Matthew Parkinson (Lancashire), Ollie Pope (Surrey), Dominic Sibley (Warwickshire), Ben Stokes (Durham), Chris Woakes (Warwickshire).

England squad for five Twenty20s in New Zealand:
Eoin Morgan (Middlesex) captain, Jonny Bairstow (Yorkshire), Tom Banton (Somerset), Sam Billings (Kent), Pat Brown (Worcestershire), Sam Curran (Surrey), Tom Curran (Surrey), Joe Denly (Kent), Lewis Gregory (Somerset), Chris Jordan (Sussex), Saqib Mahmood (Lancashire), Dawid Malan (Middlesex), Matt Parkinson (Lancashire), Adil Rashid (Yorkshire), James Vince (Hampshire).

Good to see Mahmood and Parkinson get a call up, chances are they'll be carrying the drinks but it can't be a bad thing getting the young talents in and around the squad.

The only "surprise" may be Overton not making the squad after playing in the summer, but it's a mystery why he played in the first place...
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: mo_town on September 23, 2019, 02:52:55 PM
Its the dawn of the new England test cricket era! Hopefully the new guys get a longish run to prove themselves and people dont start shotuing for their heads after a bad series.

Any reason why Buttler and Moeen are missing from the T20 squad?
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: alexevo94 on September 23, 2019, 02:54:03 PM
Its the dawn of the new England test cricket era! Hopefully the new guys get a longish run to prove themselves and people dont start shotuing for their heads after a bad series.

Any reason why Buttler and Moeen are missing from the T20 squad?

And Archer
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: Warneymonster on September 23, 2019, 03:11:46 PM
is this series not part of the test championship? would make sense to blood new players if there is no points available.

foakes should feel disappointed, would have had him instead of Parkinson.

Archer not in for t20? thought that was his speciality?
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: ppccopener on September 23, 2019, 03:20:37 PM
Bairstow's omission would have been less surprising had Foakes been included.  Foakes has had a poor season with the bat, mind you.

yes correct. but they have clearly had enough of him, as have some of us.

no Foakes is a dissapointhment but on the whole a good squad and really pleased some young batsmen get a shot. Pope I hope will bat 5 and Sibley to open.

to make room for new young players, England had to trim down the middle order keepers, personally in the last 2 years I think Butler is well ahead as a test player, so easy choice(from my armchair)
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on September 23, 2019, 03:37:01 PM
Richard Gleeson was the name on everyone's lips last year. His 41 wickets at 21 this season compare very favourably to Mahmood's 21 at 31.

I know stats don't always tell the full story, but I thought it might be a talking point?
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: rickjames on September 23, 2019, 03:45:20 PM
I think that T20 series is a chance to see the younger lads at an international level with an eye towards the World Cup. Really interested to see how Banton and Brown fare in particular
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on September 23, 2019, 05:21:37 PM
Richard Gleeson was the name on everyone's lips last year. His 41 wickets at 21 this season compare very favourably to Mahmood's 21 at 31.

I know stats don't always tell the full story, but I thought it might be a talking point?

Isn't he 31 though?
Hardly building for the future if they picked him, is it?

Who was it said people on here look at the averages and shout names? ;)
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on September 23, 2019, 06:45:15 PM
I wasn't shouting his name. Just wondered why he'd gone down/ disappeared from the pecking order. But good point about his age.



Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on September 23, 2019, 06:48:02 PM
And, honestly, I posted that before I saw he had got six today.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: rickjames on September 23, 2019, 08:16:26 PM
I don't remember him ever being in the pecking order in the first place...
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on September 23, 2019, 09:25:45 PM
I don't remember him ever being in the pecking order in the first place...

The CBF pecking order. Seriously, lots of people were picking / pecking him this time last year. He'd just moved to Lancashire from Northants.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: edge on September 23, 2019, 10:59:30 PM
Gleeson did get picked for the Lions and do quite well around that time didn't he? Mad as the Lions selection can be, it shows he was at least somewhere on the pecking order.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on September 23, 2019, 11:25:19 PM
Bairstow has been mediocre for all but one year in his Test career. Heís can have no complaints about being axed.

Aside from 2016, he averages 28 in his remaining 50 odd test - which is pathetic
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: Lumsden on September 24, 2019, 02:38:10 AM
Some interesting selections but the omission of David Willey from the T20 squad is strange. Chris Jordan is a great fielder but Willey is by far the better batsman and arguably a better bowler too. Mind you I don't think he's been helped by poor Yorkshire have been this season and their rotating doors policy to selection each match. 
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: FattusCattus on September 24, 2019, 09:24:15 AM
Quite surprised Bairstow hasn't exploded in the media somewhere - mind you, that might have been one of the things Smith and Titch wanted to talk to him about.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: Manormanic on September 24, 2019, 09:45:33 AM
Some interesting selections but the omission of David Willey from the T20 squad is strange. Chris Jordan is a great fielder but Willey is by far the better batsman and arguably a better bowler too. Mind you I don't think he's been helped by poor Yorkshire have been this season and their rotating doors policy to selection each match.

I don't know if Willey would even have been available - I believe his wife had a tricky pregnancy this Summer, and Yorkshire were certainly not selecting him for away games on that basis for a lot of the year.  Can't blame the bloke for wanting to be around in those circumstances.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: alexhilly1492 on September 24, 2019, 10:25:38 AM
I don't know if Willey would even have been available - I believe his wife had a tricky pregnancy this Summer, and Yorkshire were certainly not selecting him for away games on that basis for a lot of the year.  Can't blame the bloke for wanting to be around in those circumstances.

He did play some away games didn't he? certainly played the notts game at trent bridge? and im pretty sure he played at Queens Park vs derby? although they're not massive trips
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: Manormanic on September 24, 2019, 10:30:18 AM
He did play some away games didn't he? certainly played the notts game at trent bridge? and im pretty sure he played at Queens Park vs derby? although they're not massive trips

Sorry, I was referring to the Championship games.  Insert gag about "proper creekeeet" here...
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: alexhilly1492 on September 24, 2019, 10:45:16 AM
Sorry, I was referring to the Championship games.  Insert gag about "proper creekeeet" here...

Fair enough! And it is proper cricket ;)
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: WABH-J on October 30, 2019, 10:10:16 PM
I'm sorry but is anybody else disappointed/ concerned about the appointment of Darren Gough as the bowling consultant for the tour? I'm not a pessimist and I hope I'm proved wrong but this is nagging me.

To me the appointment of Silverwood was slightly strange when there were other coaches with more international experience but I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. His appointment of Gough, however, smacks to me of another 'jobs for the boys' appointment. No coaching experience whatsoever but now the bowling coach for the international team? Like I say I very much hope there are sound reasons for dong this but from the outside looking in, it looks a lot like 'I always admired Darren and he was a decent bowler, maybe he should be coach' - We will not find another Troy Cooley with this attitude.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: alexevo94 on October 30, 2019, 10:12:20 PM
Isnít he a Ďbowling consultantí not the actual bowling coach
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: jonny77 on October 30, 2019, 10:24:36 PM
Can't really see an issue with it tbf. Loads of experience as an international bowler and its only a short term deal. I'm sure he'll offer something to the seamers.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: SouthpawMark on October 30, 2019, 10:56:27 PM
Maybe heíll teach them to bowl with their tongue hanging out?

Iím not happy with the way the England set up is going... Giles, Silverwood, Gough... all names from an era where England played rubbish test cricket and usually got walloped. Whoís next? Ronnie Irani?
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: jonny77 on October 30, 2019, 11:15:47 PM
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cricket/chris-silverwood-england-head-coach-profile-ecb-trevor-bayliss-ashley-giles-a9177281.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cricket/chris-silverwood-england-head-coach-profile-ecb-trevor-bayliss-ashley-giles-a9177281.html)

Back to back titles with Essex and positive noises from some Essex players in the articke abv on his style and man mmanagement says to me he's earned it. He's an English coach who's had success at CC level and been around the side already, so a logical progression and one which should be applauded in my book.

Obviously time will tell as to whether it'll be successful, but I like the fact there's a pathway there for good young coaches.

Goughs just there as a stop gap by the sounds of it to offer some support. They'll look for a full time bowling coach after the winter you'd think.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: WABH-J on October 31, 2019, 06:48:22 AM

Iím not happy with the way the England set up is going... Giles, Silverwood, Gough... all names from an era where England played rubbish test cricket and usually got walloped. Whoís next? Ronnie Irani?

Maybe Mark Ramprakash should be batting coach....oh wait!

Quote
Back to back titles with Essex and positive noises from some Essex players in the articke abv on his style and man mmanagement says to me he's earned it. He's an English coach who's had success at CC level and been around the side already, so a logical progression and one which should be applauded in my book

No real issues with this - You've got to grow your coaches from somewhere and like you say he's had some success at CC level which makes sense - but I'm concerned about him handing out jobs to his mates....

Can't really see an issue with it tbf. Loads of experience as an international bowler and its only a short term deal. I'm sure he'll offer something to the seamers.

That's the problem though isn't - he has less international experience than some of the bowlers already in the team! I would rather have seen Jimmy A brought along as the consultant if he's not not fit, an undoubted master of analytical swing bowling, than Darren Gough who is a self confessed 'I just get it up there as fast as I can' type.


Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic - perhaps Goughy is just enough of a good bloke that he's worth having around for the tour (although in Anderson's autobigraphy he does mention that he wasn't particularly friendly when he first went to the dressing room) - but I do get nervous about good ex players getting coaching roles with zero experience: Martin Johnson, Solskjaer - sport is littered with them...to play devil's advocate to my own point though Andy Farrell has done pretty well
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: SD on October 31, 2019, 10:15:27 AM
I'm sorry but is anybody else disappointed/ concerned about the appointment of Darren Gough as the bowling consultant for the tour? I'm not a pessimist and I hope I'm proved wrong but this is nagging me.

To me the appointment of Silverwood was slightly strange when there were other coaches with more international experience but I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. His appointment of Gough, however, smacks to me of another 'jobs for the boys' appointment. No coaching experience whatsoever but now the bowling coach for the international team? Like I say I very much hope there are sound reasons for dong this but from the outside looking in, it looks a lot like 'I always admired Darren and he was a decent bowler, maybe he should be coach' - We will not find another Troy Cooley with this attitude.


I was underwhelmed by the appointment of Silverwood as head coach.  It smacked of Giles boxing himself into a corner by limiting himself to English coaches rather than appointing the best available person to the job.  I hope when it comes to appointing a permanent bowling coach the search will be more thorough.

Bringing an old team mate along on an overseas trip to fill an important coaching role isn't a great start particularly when you are taking a young squad.  The back room staff does look more like a 1990s old boys' reunion than a top level coaching set up
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: edge on October 31, 2019, 11:27:06 AM
Surprised at people moaning about Silverwood's appointment - what more could he possibly have done to show he was good for the job? Turned Essex around and won back to back titles with a promotion in the middle, then has been very well received by the England squad and worked wonders with Broad. What more could an English coach have done? Not interested in anyone's coaching record in dodgy overseas t20 gigs, pretty irrelevant to managing a test match team.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on November 01, 2019, 04:09:43 AM
I'm sure some of you will slag him off for not being there at the end, but James Vince can't half bat!
59 off 38, with 7 fours and 2 sixes. Knock lad

Good win for England in the first T20I, including a first international wicket for Pat Brown
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: ppccopener on November 01, 2019, 07:36:06 AM
Stylish Vince guides England the headline on line

Actually glad he is still around the squad, lots of class and has all the shots. Hasnít shown he can concentrate in an England shirt much.
Frustrating.

Should be locked away for a month with Chris Tavere...80ís England player and a monumental blocker.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: rickjames on November 01, 2019, 02:55:57 PM
Not seen much of the highlights but that looks like a solid day from the bowlers, particularly Sam and Tom going for just 7 combined in the first 3 overs, Tom getting a maiden.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: edge on November 04, 2019, 07:43:54 AM
This series is at a hugely inconvenient time for UK viewers, guessing that's lead to the relative silence on here! Would like to see Banton get some games, not really sure why we're playing a top 3 of pretty experienced players who likely wouldn't get in the first choice XI - better looking at someone who might break in, surely.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: alexhilly1492 on November 04, 2019, 08:49:20 AM
saw the highlights of the second and watched the third,

complete reversal in the second game, cant understand why we arent playing banton either,

brown looks ok although probably no quite there yet lloks a prospect! gregory looks better at the moment imo
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: edge on November 04, 2019, 09:03:52 AM
saw the highlights of the second and watched the third,
What were the scores in the third mate? Hope you're using the time machine well, could make a few quid at the bookies!
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: alexhilly1492 on November 04, 2019, 09:24:03 AM
What were the scores in the third mate? Hope you're using the time machine well, could make a few quid at the bookies!

oops!!
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on November 05, 2019, 01:59:22 AM
Parkinson has looked tidy so far on debut and isn't afraid to take the pace right off the ball. He could be a key bowler for England for a long time if he lives up to his early promise.

As for Saqib Mahmood, he's shown no evidence he's an international class bowler so far. It looks as if he's quick with no radar, was his call up too soon?
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 05, 2019, 07:09:00 AM
Parkinson has looked tidy so far on debut and isn't afraid to take the pace right off the ball. He could be a key bowler for England for a long time if he lives up to his early promise.

As for Saqib Mahmood, he's shown no evidence he's an international class bowler so far. It looks as if he's quick with no radar, was his call up too soon?

Reminds me of watching Sajid Mahmood in an England shirt. Poor.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: rickjames on November 05, 2019, 08:09:24 AM
How on Earth do you screw up chasing that? It's not like it was an inexperienced T20 side either...
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: Manormanic on November 05, 2019, 06:57:27 PM
As for Saqib Mahmood, he's shown no evidence he's an international class bowler so far. It looks as if he's quick with no radar, was his call up too soon?

Or was this a really good opportunity for him to spend a few weeks with the squad in a relatively low pressure situation?  He may not be international class right this moment, but he has massive potential and should be encouraged.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: Buzz on November 05, 2019, 07:45:48 PM
Mahmood need time and should be given it.

We lost because of 5-10 in 18 balls with experienced players giving it away.

You can't blame a colt.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on November 05, 2019, 07:49:02 PM
Mahmood clearly has the potential to be a very good player.

However, is taking him halfway round the world and throwing him into international T20s ahead of time going to help him develop or do more harm than good in the long run?
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 05, 2019, 08:23:06 PM
Iíd be interested to see how the win/loss percentage varies between matches where Vince is involved, and those where he isnít. It seems to me that we lose more than we win whenever heís involved.

Personally, Iím amazed England gave him another go, as he was absolutely shocking during the World Cup, and he must frustrate everyone within the setup with his amazing ability to looks fantastic, right up until the moment he gets out to a truly idiotic shot.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: jonny77 on November 05, 2019, 10:01:54 PM
Not sure 109 runs in 3 games is a bad return is it? Plus losing wasn't just down to Vince. We could and should have still won it needing 20 off 18 with 5 wickets left! We all know he can look good for 20 or 30 and get out, but so can others. In shorter formats he's better than he has been in tests.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: edge on November 06, 2019, 08:12:50 AM
Better in short formats? Hardly, Vince has two fifties in 24 white ball games and still averages under 30. I think the point where anyone might learn something new about him in international cricket is long gone now, backup at best.

Mahmood's county record in white ball is superb, he's earned the callup even if it maybe does come early. There's a world cup on next year though, so now is the time to be giving debuts - no point chucking someone in late.

Still disappointed Benny Howell hasn't got a go...
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: jonny77 on November 06, 2019, 08:24:14 AM
Exactly. Averages just over 30 in T20s as opposed to 24 in tests, so better. Thanks for proving the point :D Still harsh to put that defeat at his door imo, whether we know all about him at this level or not.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: Alvaro on November 06, 2019, 06:23:04 PM
Better in short formats? Hardly, Vince has two fifties in 24 white ball games and still averages under 30. I think the point where anyone might learn something new about him in international cricket is long gone now, backup at best.

Mahmood's county record in white ball is superb, he's earned the callup even if it maybe does come early. There's a world cup on next year though, so now is the time to be giving debuts - no point chucking someone in late.

Still disappointed Benny Howell hasn't got a go...

Isn't Benny crocked?
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: edge on November 06, 2019, 07:10:39 PM
Isn't Benny crocked?
Ah you may have a point there, would make it hard for him to play! Fingers crossed for the home summer next year, although I'll still be amazed if England take the leap.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: Alvaro on November 06, 2019, 08:22:57 PM
I wonder if they have Higgo's number?
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: alexhilly1492 on November 07, 2019, 10:14:51 PM
Bairstow called up to test squad as cover for denly

Wonder what odds you'd get on denly not being fit and Jonny playing??
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: rickjames on November 07, 2019, 10:30:24 PM
God that's weak.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: Sam on November 07, 2019, 10:42:02 PM
Bairstow called up to test squad as cover for denly

Wonder what odds you'd get on denly not being fit and Jonny playing??

Pretty poor surely given Sibley and Crawley were in the squad ahead of him.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: rickjames on November 08, 2019, 06:07:00 AM
Very impressive from Morgan and Malan
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: rickjames on November 08, 2019, 06:27:30 AM
WE NOW HAVE TWO T20I CENTURIONS.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: beaver5 on November 08, 2019, 06:31:31 AM
So glad I made the effort to get up early. Unbelievable batting!  :D
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: KW9221 on November 08, 2019, 06:43:58 AM
Amazing display of power! Highest 3rd wicket partnership in t20.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: Kulli on November 08, 2019, 07:18:01 AM
YJB called up again after Denly withdrew injured. On what basis Iím not really sure.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: ppccopener on November 08, 2019, 07:19:50 AM
Blimey
241 in 20 overs!  does make you wonder if there is a limit what can be achieved

Malan I think is a very good player across the formats, think he should of been given more time in the test squad...dumped too early after that Ashes tour
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: ppccopener on November 08, 2019, 07:29:02 AM
YJB called up again after Denly withdrew injured. On what basis Iím not really sure.

Yes...Bairstow rightly dropped, with 3 young batsmen potentially who they want to find out about, now their chances are reduced

Seems we do the right thing calling them up, then donít go thru with the decision.

I hope this does not cost Pope a place..he deserves a run in the side.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: alexhilly1492 on November 08, 2019, 07:46:00 AM
It was worded on BBC sport as called up as cover for denly

Surely that means he's a reserve so to speak?
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: rickjames on November 08, 2019, 07:58:42 AM
Really impressive from Parkinson, like what I see from the lad
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on November 08, 2019, 08:18:44 AM
Dawid Malan has a T20I hundred.

How long before people start calling for him to be back in the Test side?
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: rickjames on November 08, 2019, 08:29:07 AM
Dawid Malan has a T20I hundred.

How long before people start calling for him to be back in the Test side?

Ed Smith sees your post
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 08, 2019, 08:59:28 AM
Great innings from Malan. Might have to try one of his bats.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: FattusCattus on November 08, 2019, 09:24:41 AM
Is there anywhere you can see highlights of these T20's?
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: edge on November 08, 2019, 09:50:31 AM
Dawid Malan has a T20I hundred.

How long before people start calling for him to be back in the Test side?
Would have preferred him to get called up rather than Bairstow! Would have made more sense too.

Sky normally put short highlights online @FattusCattus
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: rickjames on November 08, 2019, 10:30:50 AM
Is there anywhere you can see highlights of these T20's?

https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/cricket (https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/cricket)
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: SurreySam on November 08, 2019, 10:50:44 AM
Is there anywhere you can see highlights of these T20's?

Some get put on YouTube by people, but soon disappear due to copyright.

***edit***
Link removed as video has now gone.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: Alvaro on November 08, 2019, 01:33:12 PM
here is sky sports's channel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpWicxHzcPw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpWicxHzcPw)
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on November 10, 2019, 08:24:31 AM
Who would have predicted that as an end to the T20 series then?

New Zealand must hate these Super Overs
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 10, 2019, 09:28:36 AM
Great win for the mighty England.

As a Kent fan, it pains me to say this, but Billings shouldnít be in the England side until he decides what sort of batsman he wants to be. He either needs to be a power hitter (which he can do) or hit unorthodox shots (which he can do in county cricket, but struggles to do so in internationals). Heís kind of midway between the two at the moment, and he looks a bit lost out there.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: rickjames on November 10, 2019, 09:30:01 AM
Woke up thinking it'd have been abandoned, then see the sport pages. Jesus Christ!

The smile on Neesham's and Jordan's face for that last delivery is priceless
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: SurreySam on November 10, 2019, 09:54:09 AM
Here's a 17 min highlight show - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BdjgBCEGJA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BdjgBCEGJA)
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on November 10, 2019, 07:16:49 PM
I gave up on this last night. It wasn't looking promising, weather wise. At that point they were saying 5 overs per side constitutes a match. Funny then, that ultimately it was decided by 1 over per side?
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: Jimmy Tiwana on November 10, 2019, 09:51:33 PM
Here's a 17 min highlight show - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BdjgBCEGJA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BdjgBCEGJA)

Any other link?
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: SurreySam on November 10, 2019, 10:05:52 PM
Any other link?

As I mentioned before, they come and go due to Sky copyright.

However a quick search by upload date and this 1hr upload has appeared; so I've cracked open another beer and just sitting down to watch it, despite having seen the earlier highlights.  :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUSVBQxRxEM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUSVBQxRxEM)
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: six and out on November 12, 2019, 07:28:23 AM
Excellent to see both Sibley and Crawley get hundreds in the 1st warm up game.

Don't think it's a world beating attack but you still have to get them.

Surely if Denly isn't fit Crawley will bat at 3.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: rickjames on November 12, 2019, 07:46:27 AM
Still don't get how Sibley wasn't playing this summer in an England shirt...
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: alexhilly1492 on November 12, 2019, 08:14:37 AM
Looking at the batting order it seems England have played a first choice top 5

Burns
Sibley
Crawley
Root
Pope

We can then assume
Stokes
Buttler
Woakes
archer
Leach
Broad
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: alexhilly1492 on November 12, 2019, 08:15:00 AM
Although I now realise woakes isn't playing in this game so could me Mahmood
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: rickjames on November 12, 2019, 08:36:04 AM
If Denly is fit, he'll wind up at #3
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: alexhilly1492 on November 12, 2019, 08:52:10 AM
If Denly is fit, he'll wind up at #3

yeah, im just not sure he'll be fit for the first game.

either way it looks like weve picked a decent in form, young side
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: SOULMAN1012 on November 12, 2019, 09:06:37 AM
Excellent to see both Sibley and Crawley get hundreds in the 1st warm up game.

Don't think it's a world beating attack but you still have to get them.

Surely if Denly isn't fit Crawley will bat at 3.

Arguably the best young batters in the country in red ball cricket and will be very good to see some pressure for opening spots in our Test side instead of just picking a new one every series. Burns played well in the Ashes and think he compliments both Crawley and Sibley well along with giving us a left & right handed combo. Who was the last England opener to score a hundred on debut in a test?? I believe it was Cook and i certainly wouldnít bet against certainly Sibley becoming the latest if he can carry on his form
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: ppccopener on November 12, 2019, 09:17:57 AM
looking forward to the series, younger players getting the chance and with Denly at 3 a good balance of experience(if fit)

Root back to 4 and according to the Guardian Stokes is set at 5 and Pope is 6.


Sibley and Pope have got to be given time to settle in, we cant go back to Bairstow when there's younger players waiting in the wings with potential. I think myself Pope potentially could be the best of the bunch
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on November 12, 2019, 09:35:51 AM
Who was the last England opener to score a hundred on debut in a test?? I believe it was Cook and i certainly wouldnít bet against certainly Sibley becoming the latest if he can carry on his form

It was actually Keaton Jennings in India!
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: edge on November 12, 2019, 10:05:55 AM
Reports today have been that Denly is fit and will play the second warmup game with Bairstow to fly home. Only two tests so can't see Crawley getting a game, but clearly hasn't done his chances any harm!

Looking forward to seeing the first properly balanced England test team in years...
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: alexhilly1492 on November 12, 2019, 10:08:01 AM
Reports today have been that Denly is fit and will play the second warmup game with Bairstow to fly home. Only two tests so can't see Crawley getting a game, but clearly hasn't done his chances any harm!

Looking forward to seeing the first properly balanced England test team in years...

He's probably got himself on the SA tour though!

good to see selectors making decent decision around cover too!
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: edge on November 12, 2019, 10:11:27 AM
Think that was a given to be fair - he won't bat again on this tour and noone who might get picked instead will be playing any first class, so unless he tips a pint over someone's head or nuts a bouncer then it'd be strange selection not to take Crawley to SA!
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: ppccopener on November 12, 2019, 11:05:20 AM
It was actually Keaton Jennings in India!

hmmm. what happened to him? didn't see many notable scores in County cricket last year.

Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: SD on November 12, 2019, 02:51:38 PM
hmmm. what happened to him? didn't see many notable scores in County cricket last year.

Not a disaster but didn't pull up any trees either.  Shade under 600 runs at 30.   No tons. 
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: ppccopener on November 14, 2019, 09:49:25 PM
Looks like we are going with this for the tests...as the A match starts. Thereís no Woakes but I really like the look of the side, one keeper batsman and a specialist spinner, whatís the forum view? Best we can put out I think and some younger guys getting a chance.Sam Curran I think could end up a better bat than he is a bowler but an all rounder for now.Stokes not too high at 5 and time for Pope to settle in away from the top 4.

Burns
Sibley
Denly
Root
Stokes
Pope
Butler
Curran
Archer
Leach
Broad.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: Buzz on November 14, 2019, 10:17:16 PM
Pope is a good keeper batsman, you are right.

More seriously, I am looking forward to when Pope is at three to be honest.
Title: Re: England Squad For New Zealand
Post by: potzy248 on November 15, 2019, 03:50:37 AM
Off to throw some balls at your players on Tuesday. Looking forward to it.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Buzz on November 15, 2019, 07:19:57 AM
Take some pics if you can, especially of Stokes' bat for @SouthpawMark...!
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 15, 2019, 07:51:17 AM
Take some pics if you can, especially of Stokes' bat for @SouthpawMark...!

Even better, ďborrowĒ one and Iíll send you £10 for postage...

 :D
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: edge on November 20, 2019, 07:36:47 AM
Team's out, as expected with Curran getting the nod ahead of Woakes. Looking forward to this series, always enjoy when England play NZ - even if the possibility of Bolt/Southee tearing England apart in a session is always lurking!

This from Dobell on twitter, track looks interesting...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJxQG89WkAA509T.jpg:large)
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 20, 2019, 08:11:13 AM
Wow, that pitch looks a shocker. It looks like some parts of it were relaid about a week ago.

Hopefully the forecast is for clear skies and warm temperatures. Southee only ever seems to take wickets when the weather is grim and he can get the ball to hoop around.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: rickjames on November 20, 2019, 10:32:36 AM
4 Surrey academy graduates in an England starting 11. We are living in the most beautiful of timelines...
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 20, 2019, 11:04:01 AM
4 Surrey academy graduates in an England starting 11. We are living in the most beautiful of timelines...

Alec Stewart is probably feeling aroused about now.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: potzy248 on November 20, 2019, 04:59:06 PM
Wow, that pitch looks a shocker. It looks like some parts of it were relaid about a week ago.

Hopefully the forecast is for clear skies and warm temperatures. Southee only ever seems to take wickets when the weather is grim and he can get the ball to hoop around.

I was down there yesterday. I was supposed to throw balls but Graham Thorpe needed some spinners so I put my hand up. Ended up bowling nude offspin to Denly, Stokes and Pope. Right next door was Archer and Broad steaming in. Great experience and all the team were great to talk to.
On the pitch. Thats just an interesting photo where some of the grass has been pushed up (probably so the guy who posted it got some likes), the pitch will be a belter.
Weather is good all week and can get pretty hot. Can also get very cold when the Southerly comes through. I'm heading over today.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 20, 2019, 05:11:56 PM
I was down there yesterday. I was supposed to throw balls but Graham Thorpe needed some spinners so I put my hand up. Ended up bowling nude offspin to Denly, Stokes and Pope. Right next door was Archer and Broad steaming in. Great experience and all the team were great to talk to.
On the pitch. Thats just an interesting photo where some of the grass has been pushed up (probably so the guy who posted it got some likes), the pitch will be a belter.
Weather is good all week and can get pretty hot. Can also get very cold when the Southerly comes through. I'm heading over today.

Sounds like a great day. If they want to face some slow left arm filth, let them know Iím ready and waiting, as long as they fly me out 1st class.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: ppccopener on November 20, 2019, 09:46:09 PM
We're avin a bat. Debut for Sibley, Pope 6.

Is this a new dawn back to an old style way of playing(which is not so old for the best teams !) .

Bat long, try and get the oppo batting last with a specialist spinner in.

I'm happy, but can we play differently and how many matches does it take to 'change'

 :)
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: edge on November 20, 2019, 10:07:19 PM
Good to see New Balance are carrying on their commitment to making their stickers look worse every year.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 20, 2019, 10:14:19 PM
Good to see New Balance are carrying on their commitment to making their stickers look worse every year.

Nice shot from Sibley first ball. Looks very well organised indeed.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on November 20, 2019, 10:20:25 PM
Good to see New Balance are carrying on their commitment to making their stickers look worse every year.

I thought the pink stickers Burns is using looked quite nice... :-[
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 20, 2019, 10:22:31 PM
Regardless of the stickers, the actual bat looks like an absolute gun. He barely hit those two boundaries.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: rickjames on November 20, 2019, 10:22:31 PM
Watching us leave the ball is absolutely beautiful
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 20, 2019, 10:23:44 PM
Bairstow would have tried to drive a straight one, missed it and been bowled through the gate by now. Beautiful leaves by Sibley. I think heís the real deal.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: fros23 on November 20, 2019, 10:47:49 PM
Bairstow would have tried to drive a straight one, missed it and been bowled through the gate by now. Beautiful leaves by Sibley. I think heís the real deal.

I must have missed those times where Bairstow opened the batting  ;)
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 20, 2019, 10:51:49 PM
I must have missed those times where Bairstow opened the batting  ;)
Grr. I meant Roy.

Bairstow would do it lower down the order.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SOULMAN1012 on November 20, 2019, 11:26:44 PM
50. Opening partnership didnít see many of those in the summer. So far DS looking good
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: edge on November 21, 2019, 12:33:23 AM
Some pretty tedious punditry going on about Sibley here - thought he just misjudged a good ball and had a bit of a prod at it. Looked good until then though, promising signs. Amazing how leg side play still gets looked down on!
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: six and out on November 21, 2019, 07:30:28 AM
Very encouraging look to this new top order. Burns continued where he left off from the ashes.

Sibley looked organised, knows his method and I give him every chance to be honest, many a great player have gone across their stumps, left it outside off and made the bowler bowl at them and then picked off anything straight.... a certain Mr. Smith does that rather nicely.

I think also Pope did well coming in against the 2nd new ball which was good to see, as that can often happen as a no.6.

On a downside I really wish Root would put that shot away.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: cricketbadger on November 21, 2019, 08:54:13 AM

On a downside I really wish Root would put that shot away.

Really isnt the shot your skipper should play when hes 2 from 21
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 21, 2019, 08:55:29 AM
A solid first day. Actual test match batting on display! I wonder if the presence of Roy and Bairstow in an and around the team, in the nets etc led to the frenetic batting displays we saw last summer?

Thought Sibley looked good. Slightly different looking technique, but thatís what Gary Palmer coaches, and based on the number of runs heís churned out in the last year or two, I donít think anyone can argue that it doesnít work. He seems to have so much time to play the ball.

Stokesís bat looked nice.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: alexhilly1492 on November 21, 2019, 09:04:01 AM
Stokesís bat looked nice.

Shock!!!

but it did!

popes too!

Good first day for england will judge if this is or a flash in the pan, i hope it is as we can set a platform for the more expansive players to score quickly later on!
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on November 21, 2019, 09:22:51 AM
Plenty solid start, pitch seems pretty docile. Get up to around 400 and see if it starts breaking up.

NZ shouldíve played Ferguson. Not sure why you need Southee and CdG, especially as the latter can open the bowling with his wobblers.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 21, 2019, 09:29:05 AM
Unless itís swinging, Southee only ever seems to dish up floaty outside of off stump rubbish. NZ made a mistake in not picking the Lockie Express.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: rickjames on November 21, 2019, 12:38:08 PM
That lofted six from Denly was gorgeous
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: ppccopener on November 21, 2019, 01:33:26 PM
That lofted six from Denly was gorgeous

yes and he's 33 years old.

Who would of thought it....

 :)
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: rickjames on November 21, 2019, 10:56:48 PM
Bit poor from both Stokes (but an amazing grab) and Pope, throwing it away a bit
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SOULMAN1012 on November 21, 2019, 11:01:22 PM
And the lower order collapse begins, time for some Butler fireworks me thinks
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: edge on November 21, 2019, 11:04:28 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DvZzaIXV4AARphi.jpg)
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on November 21, 2019, 11:08:02 PM
Same old England, always collapsing... :(
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Wazza08 on November 21, 2019, 11:08:55 PM
Oooh a collapse - what a surprise......
Same old England
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on November 21, 2019, 11:12:29 PM
Is that Jack Leach or Brian Lara smoking them through the covers?
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: jonny77 on November 21, 2019, 11:13:29 PM
Long way to go yet fellas, let's not stick the boot in just yet.  :D
Leach ton to come yet!
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 22, 2019, 07:20:33 AM
Decent comeback with the ball after the batting collapse. Should end up with a lead of at least 60-70.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Warneymonster on November 22, 2019, 11:28:03 AM
old news but Broad has become a liability with the bat. still looks terrified of the ball.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SurreySam on November 22, 2019, 05:30:41 PM
I think Nicholls looked the most terrified facing and wearing Archer in his last over of the day. Speaking of which he neeeds to be demoted to #11 and move Leach further up the order.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SOULMAN1012 on November 22, 2019, 06:30:42 PM
I think Nicholls looked the most terrified facing and wearing Archer in his last over of the day. Speaking of which he neeeds to be demoted to #11 and move Leach further up the order.

Think broad is 11 now and was.  In the Ashes as well i believe
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SurreySam on November 22, 2019, 06:38:04 PM
He is.

I was suggesting that Archer should be there instead.  Allegedly the guy can bat, but he certainly hasn't shown it.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: ppccopener on November 22, 2019, 09:03:03 PM
Iím a 100 per cent sure Leach is the right player for us..he can hold an end to give control to Root, get wickets when itís turning and stay there with a decent technique and temperament in the lower order for the likes of Butler.

Broad totally gone after getting hit in the face which is not nice as some of us know...but his bowling is actually getting better, he was outstanding in the Ashes.

With paper talk of Mo coming back for SA, I hope Leach does not give way for him
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Buzz on November 22, 2019, 10:10:24 PM
Mo more likely to be back for Sri Lanka, three tours this winter is confusing people..
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 22, 2019, 10:12:38 PM
Leach is a decent bowler. Itís a shame all the other rubbish last summer took peopleís attention away from that fact, and he became a bit of a joke figure. Hopefully heíll let his bowling do the talking from now on.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: csnew on November 22, 2019, 10:27:51 PM
Surprised archer didnít open up this morning
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on November 22, 2019, 11:31:08 PM
Mo more likely to be back for Sri Lanka, three tours this winter is confusing people..
Moeen shouldnít ever play Test cricket again. Heís mentally weak and lacks the guts to show up when itís not going his way
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: edge on November 22, 2019, 11:41:35 PM
Torn over the SS stickers looking great but also being a disgraceful copyright infringement.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on November 23, 2019, 12:04:37 AM
Over, lunch & bed!

Still fairly evenly poised for my money. Let's see what state the game is in come tomorrow morning.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: NT50 on November 23, 2019, 01:33:53 AM
Has anyone else lost all sense of time and stayed up for both days so far? Because i have and i'm beginning to realise how little i like test cricket when it isn't in England
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: billyb on November 23, 2019, 03:06:36 AM
Not bad from Sibley, that!
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 23, 2019, 07:29:38 AM
Crikey. What an awful wicket. No wonder Kane Williamson scored a truckload ofruns there domestically.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: potzy248 on November 23, 2019, 07:52:03 AM
Crikey. What an awful wicket. No wonder Kane Williamson scored a truckload ofruns there domestically.

Kane hasn't score many runs there. He never plays at the Bay Oval.

First test wicket and the curator probably wanted to keep it safe. I agree though pretty tough to get a result on it.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: csnew on November 23, 2019, 08:46:37 AM
Great fight back from NZ after day 1. Lead of 150 would be decent
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: six and out on November 23, 2019, 09:44:10 AM
I know everyone says (and rightly so) that the 1st thing Silverwood has to address is our batting but Root's captaincy has to be on the agenda as well. I really can't believe Archer didn't start this morning. He hit Nicolls on the head the night before, the last person he wants to see running in again is Archer, but Root gives the ball to our 2 slowest seamers.

Broad again has been woeful overseas, lacking any sort of threat at all.

I find Curran is the most interesting of all though, if he plays you have to give him the new ball as he is a swing bowler. Broad automatically gets the other end due to reputation etc... that leaves our quickest (and possibly best) bowler at 1st change.... ummmm.

Genuine question.... does Curran's selection inhabit Root's ability to captain?
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on November 23, 2019, 10:01:41 AM
England should be picking the three best seam bowlers, not picking bowlers on batting ability.

Curran is barely bowling 80mph, he should go hit the gym and make himself a yard quicker. All he has to do is have good look a Boult.

That said Archer set his stall out before the series even started by complaining that the kookaburra ball gets soft too quickly. Not exactly the attitude you want from the spearhead.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: csnew on November 23, 2019, 10:08:23 AM
That said Archer set his stall out before the series even started by complaining that the kookaburra ball gets soft too quickly. Not exactly the attitude you want from the spearhead.

Heís been spending too much time with broad and Andersen.

The usual excuse when they canít take wickets abroad
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 23, 2019, 11:09:36 AM
Root is no captain, thatís for sure. Iíd give it to Buttler. Stokes would be the ideal replacement, but I wouldnít burden him with it.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on November 23, 2019, 11:04:02 PM
They've just showed the pitch map of where England's seamers have bowled to Santner, and it's been a barrage of short pitched bowling.

At the time of posting this he is 39* off 151 balls. Now this may be a radical idea, but could the bowlers maybe try pitching it up? ???
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: rickjames on November 23, 2019, 11:17:14 PM
This has been a turgid hour and a bit; not sure what New Zealand are exactly doing either...
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: shadowlight on November 23, 2019, 11:52:24 PM
This has been a turgid hour and a bit; not sure what New Zealand are exactly doing either...

Get enough runs on the board to pressure England for the typical English collapse  :D

Is there a way to watch via free streaming?
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: billyb on November 24, 2019, 12:15:39 AM
Unsure if it's the wicket, a misfiring bowling attack or both, but this has been pretty rubbish so far from England. Good batting from Watling though.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SD on November 24, 2019, 12:50:10 AM
Nothing will kill test cricket off more effectively than a Kookaburra ball on flat slow wickets. 
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: shadowlight on November 24, 2019, 01:16:40 AM
If NZ get another 100 before they declare with hr or so left before end of day, it would be interesting end to the game.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: shadowlight on November 24, 2019, 01:26:44 AM
Nothing will kill test cricket off more effectively than a Kookaburra ball on flat slow wickets.

Would the Duke/SG ball be better?  England and WI are the only ones using Dukes, India is using SG, while everyone else is using Kookaburra.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: rickjames on November 24, 2019, 05:18:18 AM
Tame from both openers. No idea why Rory is doing that with 3 overs left in the day
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: rickjames on November 24, 2019, 05:33:12 AM
And then poor umpiring, Leach not even near it
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 24, 2019, 06:46:07 AM
Day 4 went well then.

Rain dance required.


Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: csnew on November 24, 2019, 07:37:40 AM
NZ have grinded England down. Watling probably the best keeper batsman going around in tests at the moment.
Thought they couldíve declared slightly earlier.

Last time England scored 400+ abroad was in 2017, all this moaning about the kookaburra ball is becoming tiresome

Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SOULMAN1012 on November 24, 2019, 08:06:51 AM


Last time England scored 400+ abroad was in 2017, all this moaning about the kookaburra ball is becoming tiresome

This is the Key in that England just donít create a winning position from batting first we avg around about 280-300 I would guess on a first inning score over the last few years and have suffered more sub 100 collapses in the last few years than any other big test playing nation. Our bowling is our strength but missing Anderson and we donít have a replacement lined up who is anywhere close to his skill set.

We letís see if we can bat out tomorrow I would say itís 75:25 in NZ favour though
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on November 24, 2019, 09:49:07 AM
This is the Key in that England just donít create a winning position from batting first we avg around about 280-300 I would guess on a first inning score over the last few years and have suffered more sub 100 collapses in the last few years than any other big test playing nation. Our bowling is our strength but missing Anderson and we donít have a replacement lined up who is anywhere close to his skill set.

We letís see if we can bat out tomorrow I would say itís 75:25 in NZ favour though
When has Anderson fronted up with the kookaburra ball? His supposedly superior skills have gotten him 153 wickets @ 37 with that ball. And thatís boosted by the pink kookaburra they used at Adelaide in the day/night Test
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: ppccopener on November 24, 2019, 10:07:05 AM
I think this is great for England I really do. New coach, new mantra for the longer form of the game And away from Roots naive ideas of the last couple of years of 'not just using up balls'  we have seen NZ and their superb captain show just how to win, or get into winning positions, in the longer form. Get in and stay in and go big with the ideal that your spinner comes into the match at the back end. I see Santner has all three of ours to fall, and he is good but not a world beating spinner.

We need to take from this game just how our approach needs plenty of work.the the huge emphasis on one day cricket its for to take a few games to see if we can adapt....

Two concerns still stop this side moving forward thou, is Root a captain capable of scoring runs while still in the job? And on flat decks can we find a way thru?

The answer to the second has got to be surely 400 in the first innings not 300 or 350 so there is at least scoreboard pressure on the oppo.

Hats off to NZ, a good side, well led and if they go 1 up they will of deserved it

Well played the Kiwis.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on November 24, 2019, 10:25:26 AM
For all this talk of new dawns and balanced selections I think there's a couple of key points people are missing.

1) England need Root the player far more than they need Root the captain. It may be beneficial for him and the side to hand the reins over to someone else so he can focus on batting again and (hopefully) get back to something near his best.

2) England just aren't that good. There's talent in the squad, but these are inexperienced players at this level. Chances are they'll come good given time, but you're not going to select new personell and become world class overnight. Give the side time to develop, this is just the start of a transitional period.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 24, 2019, 10:28:38 AM
The biggest concern is that a fairly average batting lineup can rack up 600+, and we are going to struggle to pass 300. We also have a fairly average spinner, a captain devoid of ideas, a fast bowler who seems to pick and choose when he puts any effort in, and back up seamers who struggle to hit over 80mph.

The Silverwood and Giles era better get better than this.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on November 24, 2019, 11:18:45 AM
Leach is a decent bowler. Itís a shame all the other rubbish last summer took peopleís attention away from that fact, and he became a bit of a joke figure. Hopefully heíll let his bowling do the talking from now on.

The biggest concern is that a fairly average batting lineup can rack up 600+, and we are going to struggle to pass 300. We also have a fairly average spinner, a captain devoid of ideas, a fast bowler who seems to pick and choose when he puts any effort in, and back up seamers who struggle to hit over 80mph.

The Silverwood and Giles era better get better than this.


Blimey, he's gone from "decent" to "fairly average" in the last 2 days! :(
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 24, 2019, 11:50:27 AM


Blimey, he's gone from "decent" to "fairly average" in the last 2 days! :(

 ;)
I was trying to give him confidence, but no, heís not very good. The more I watch him, the less I rate him. Hurry back Moeen...all is forgiven.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on November 24, 2019, 12:08:34 PM
Iím sure we all want Moeen back with his head high beamers...
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 24, 2019, 12:53:37 PM
Iím sure we all want Moeen back with his head high beamers...

I think he just needs to be shown that the skipper has confidence in him. Ever since Sir Graeme Swanny retired, every spinner has been treated by whoever is skippering with suspicion and distrust. Spinners need to feel loved.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on November 24, 2019, 01:14:32 PM
The new thinking appears to be sound for the top 3 finally !! Anyone sensible has been saying it for years (so anyone wanting Roy, Bairstow, duckett and co up there donít qualify)..

Root needs to be sacked as capt
Jos to six and skipper and make it as a batter
Stokes looks injured but is justifying his place currently as a batter alone. Maybe time to jut tell him he has to avg 40 and the bowling becomes a bonus
Foakes in as keeper

Bowling is a worry as Curran seems to be the new golden child .. we wonít win anything with slow plod like that. He needs to go now.

Anderson, broad, archer, woakes, wood are your seam bowling unit but with Anderson and broad the next two need to be developed fast as they might go at any point now. Currently the stocks are thin

Spin. Leech is the only genuine option

Also, leech to 8.. heís shown fight and we need fight more than biffing
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Manormanic on November 24, 2019, 05:12:57 PM
Things said in the last 24 hours here that I agree with:
1. Root is not the right man to captain England at this stage.  It is affecting his batting, and he is not even that good at it.

Things said in the last 24 hours here that I do not agree with:
1. Leach being a poor spinner.  Like any finger spinner, his threat is directly proportionate to the runs that his batsman have put on the board - when he has had some scoreboard pressure he has looked class (he was as good at Lords as Archer, if less brutal).  But here, New Zealand knew that England were 100 light and could block him and pick him off. 
2. Buttler as skipper?  Ridiculous.  He has been the lucky recipient of a selectorial gift when Bairstow was dropped instead of him (and Foakes was not given the slot,which would have been the best decision).  He's a poor keeper, couldn't hold down a slot as a specialist batsman, so couldn't be given the job.
3. Stokes as a specialist batsman.  Ah look, he's great, he really is - but the issue for England was that half hour of madness when he and Pope played shocking shots.  That was the time to grind the oppo into the dirt, not suddenly skip from second to overdrive. 
4. Archer....wow, you guys are on his back quickly.  He has not bowled great, but on a dead track still managed to half kill Nicholls. 

In general, they need to give people time - even the people I have criticised above.  Pope for Surrey looks a much classier player than he did here, and will get there as the nerves subside, and for the most part its a decent side. 
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Manormanic on November 24, 2019, 05:14:03 PM
Also, leech to 8.. heís shown fight and we need fight more than biffing

Actually, make that two things I agree with.  If we are picking Buttler, we might as well at least give him a chance to build an innings before he has to try the one day stuff.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on November 24, 2019, 07:17:50 PM
Things said in the last 24 hours here that I agree with:
1. Root is not the right man to captain England at this stage.  It is affecting his batting, and he is not even that good at it.

Things said in the last 24 hours here that I do not agree with:
1. Leach being a poor spinner.  Like any finger spinner, his threat is directly proportionate to the runs that his batsman have put on the board - when he has had some scoreboard pressure he has looked class (he was as good at Lords as Archer, if less brutal).  But here, New Zealand knew that England were 100 light and could block him and pick him off. 
2. Buttler as skipper?  Ridiculous.  He has been the lucky recipient of a selectorial gift when Bairstow was dropped instead of him (and Foakes was not given the slot,which would have been the best decision).  He's a poor keeper, couldn't hold down a slot as a specialist batsman, so couldn't be given the job.
3. Stokes as a specialist batsman.  Ah look, he's great, he really is - but the issue for England was that half hour of madness when he and Pope played shocking shots.  That was the time to grind the oppo into the dirt, not suddenly skip from second to overdrive. 
4. Archer....wow, you guys are on his back quickly.  He has not bowled great, but on a dead track still managed to half kill Nicholls. 

In general, they need to give people time - even the people I have criticised above.  Pope for Surrey looks a much classier player than he did here, and will get there as the nerves subside, and for the most part its a decent side.

Buttler has avg what over the last 2 years ? Even though I would happily see him dropped he deserves a run. Bairstow has had 50 tests is it ?? Avg 33-5 is it? And is going backwards with his returns and technique.. heís decided to be a white ball hitter and fair play as itís where the money is. The guy is now a liability in red ball and like ballance should be simply kicked into touch.

Stokes will never be a great batter but he should be good enough to hold a slot down. His bowling isnít great anywya and heís now seemingly injured because of it.

Iíd happily kick out more Of the Bairstow, buttler Curran, ali tyoes who quite simply wont make it or be anything but bit part players
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Manormanic on November 24, 2019, 09:33:57 PM
Buttler has avg what over the last 2 years ? Even though I would happily see him dropped he deserves a run. Bairstow has had 50 tests is it ?? Avg 33-5 is it? And is going backwards with his returns and technique.. heís decided to be a white ball hitter and fair play as itís where the money is. The guy is now a liability in red ball and like ballance should be simply kicked into touch.

Stokes will never be a great batter but he should be good enough to hold a slot down. His bowling isnít great anywya and heís now seemingly injured because of it.

Iíd happily kick out more Of the Bairstow, buttler Curran, ali tyoes who quite simply wont make it or be anything but bit part players

Not disagreeing with Bairstow being sent away to ponder or however you phrase it. But if its a straight out call between him and Buttler then you can surely see why he would be pissed as clearly the better keeper of the two tone dropped for someone whose Ashes average was. 7 higher but who only contributed when the urn was gone.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on November 24, 2019, 10:02:31 PM
Howís there any support for Bairstow being in the Test side? Since Root became captain, Bairstow averages 28. Thatís after 31 tests. After 60 odd tests, Bairstow averages 35. Heís had more than enough opportunities. Heís simply not good enough.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SOULMAN1012 on November 24, 2019, 10:54:47 PM
Put simply neither Bairstow or Butler should be in the Teat side as Foakes is the best keeper full stop and his batting so far in test cricket has been faultless and his 1st class record  record of 41avg and 9 hundreds is decent
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: rickjames on November 24, 2019, 10:56:40 PM
What on effing Earth was that?
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on November 24, 2019, 10:58:03 PM
What on effing Earth was that?

A (No Swearing Please) shot
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: rickjames on November 24, 2019, 10:59:20 PM
I think getting bounced out by Colin De Grandhomme might be a new low for him...
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: ppccopener on November 24, 2019, 11:02:38 PM
Really donít think Root can do both jobs, he lacks an instinct for skippering and Iím struggling to recall anything recent where he showed dominance and influenced a series....

Itís a shame but I just donít think he is cut out for two jobs.

Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: shadowlight on November 25, 2019, 12:34:26 AM
How did Boult injury happen?  Cricinfo says pain in the ribs.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: billyb on November 25, 2019, 01:17:15 AM
Who captains next?!
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: shadowlight on November 25, 2019, 02:46:11 AM
That was the strange decision by Buttler  :o

Edit: Congratulation New Zealand on an outstanding win and showing how to bat long in a Test Match.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 25, 2019, 06:13:09 AM
That was a diabolical performance from start to finish. Unbelievably bad.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: InternalTraining on November 25, 2019, 06:52:10 AM
Wow! I missed out on all the action.

Benji is captain material. Said that before, saying it now. Root should focus on runs and records.

A new captain with the same focus and commitment as Morgan will do the trick for England. Pick an inexperienced guy with some fight in him and groom him a'la Graeme Smith.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: csnew on November 25, 2019, 07:43:34 AM
Great win by NZ, turned out to be a great wicket.

2nd best test team for a reason
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on November 25, 2019, 08:17:00 AM
What's the pitch like in Hamilton? We might be better off getting Mahmood into the xi
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: rickjames on November 25, 2019, 08:19:27 AM
Lost to the better team of course but Jesus Christ that was embarrassing. Stupid dismissals galore.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: edge on November 25, 2019, 08:23:17 AM
Who captains next?!
Would have to be Buttler, Broad or Burns. Trouble is that none of them really have their spot in the team nailed down at the moment. Broad's probably too old anyway, but if Burns or Buttler start to score heavy runs then Root will be under much more pressure. Think Buttler's improving rapidly as a test player so not totally out of the question, but would be good if he got a chance to bat with someone other than Leach...

The worrying thing with Root is that he seems to be getting worse, with bat and as captain. Early days for this new reboot though, not overly surprised by the result given that NZ are very good. Shame it's only one more test, I reckon this England side only has three absolute definite picks at the moment so would be good to see some extra names added to that! Wonder if they'll roll the dice a little and give Mahmood a go.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 25, 2019, 08:26:15 AM
Get Moeen back. Give him the captaincy.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: edge on November 25, 2019, 08:30:42 AM
Get Moeen back. Give him the captaincy.
You must be joking.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: FattusCattus on November 25, 2019, 09:03:23 AM
Any changes for the second test?  1 run and no wickets for Broad isn't too hot (although he didn't go for many)?

Do we need Curran and Stokes (is stokes fit to bowl)?

2 spinners?

Mahmood in for the next test?
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Buzz on November 25, 2019, 09:07:38 AM
Great win by NZ, turned out to be a great wicket.

2nd best test team for a reason

This. We have to be realistic where we are as a country with our cricket. We have a very unstable batting line up and a very green bowling attack.
As compared to this Kiwi team which is at its absolute peak.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: csnew on November 25, 2019, 09:22:48 AM
Any idea why this test series is not part of the world test championship?
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: edge on November 25, 2019, 09:34:04 AM
As we're generally on the topic of England flat-track woes... anyone see much of Toby Roland-Jones this season? Played a full year but seems to have dropped out of England reckoning for some reason, odd given how good his brief test stint was and his reputation for getting wickets on flat ones.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SurreySam on November 25, 2019, 10:02:21 AM
Any idea why this test series is not part of the world test championship?

Domestic sponsors had been all agreed and signed up prior to the championship. This didn't fit with the championship arangements and therefore not included.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: alexhilly1492 on November 25, 2019, 10:08:26 AM
As we're generally on the topic of England flat-track woes... anyone see much of Toby Roland-Jones this season? Played a full year but seems to have dropped out of England reckoning for some reason, odd given how good his brief test stint was and his reputation for getting wickets on flat ones.

Stress fracture ended his England stint, came back this season, seemed to go ok but not 100% sure
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: edge on November 25, 2019, 10:27:17 AM
Stress fracture ended his England stint, came back this season, seemed to go ok but not 100% sure
Well yes - he came back in 2018 but did it again, then returned this season. Question is how is he bowling - if back at full capacity you'd assume he'd be in contention, if he's slowed down significantly then probably not.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: alexhilly1492 on November 25, 2019, 10:40:50 AM
Well yes - he came back in 2018 but did it again, then returned this season. Question is how is he bowling - if back at full capacity you'd assume he'd be in contention, if he's slowed down significantly then probably not.

33 wickets at 29.18 best of 7-52

I'm trying to find his avergae pace  :D

Probably next season will be a better guide
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SOULMAN1012 on November 25, 2019, 10:43:03 AM
Having just watched the highlights of the 2nd innings this morning oh boy does Olly Pope have a lot to answer for what a shocker to go along with his first innings dismissal, a screamer of a catch but i would get a volley from the skipper if i played that shot on a Sunday let alone in professional cricket 2nd innings batting to save the game.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: shadowlight on November 25, 2019, 12:10:30 PM
Having just watched the highlights of the 2nd innings this morning oh boy does Olly Pope have a lot to answer for what a shocker to go along with his first innings dismissal, a screamer of a catch but i would get a volley from the skipper if i played that shot on a Sunday let alone in professional cricket 2nd innings batting to save the game.

The skipper better start with screaming at himself first.  The only person that I think got out to a good ball was Denny, everyone else played lousy shots.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: ppccopener on November 25, 2019, 01:07:25 PM
The skipper better start with screaming at himself first.  The only person that I think got out to a good ball was Denny, everyone else played lousy shots.

Exactly right. Denly showed guts again and gave nothing away.

Iím afraid if you are not tactically a very good skipper next on the list is leading from the front.

We have been exposed in this match..
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Kulli on November 25, 2019, 02:46:37 PM
Any changes for the second test?  1 run and no wickets for Broad isn't too hot (although he didn't go for many)?

Do we need Curran and Stokes (is stokes fit to bowl)?

2 spinners?

Mahmood in for the next test?

Iíd hope weíd be unchanged. Broad went wicketless but bowled at least as well as anyone else.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: shadowlight on November 25, 2019, 05:06:12 PM
I have been reading Guardian comments section and for folks calling for dropping Buttler.  I understand that he had brain fart in the 2nd innings but he did pretty well batting wise in the first adding runs with the tail.  Are the expectation from the fans realistic?  How many of the byes/wides were due to his keeping?
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Buzz on November 25, 2019, 05:27:06 PM
Iíd hope weíd be unchanged. Broad went wicketless but bowled at least as well as anyone else.
I agree, but Broad needs to attack the stumps more when he bowls. Too much wasted energy trying to bowl dry.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: ppccopener on November 25, 2019, 06:58:37 PM
I have been reading Guardian comments section and for folks calling for dropping Buttler.  I understand that he had brain fart in the 2nd innings but he did pretty well batting wise in the first adding runs with the tail.  Are the expectation from the fans realistic?  How many of the byes/wides were due to his keeping?

People post anything from behind a computer these days!!  :)

The correct choice for us purists is Foakes, next best probably Butler over the last 2 years but essentially we are not playing a specialist keeper.

The question is why are we not? And that whacks is in the head constantly...until we get some batsmen earning their living then Foakes misses out. Maybe a slim chance for the Sri Lanka tour.

The irony not lost is in a England shirt Foskes has a perfectly respectable batting average.someone on here will know the exact average I donít..but itís healthy.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Manormanic on November 25, 2019, 07:16:33 PM
People post anything from behind a computer these days!!  :)

The correct choice for us purists is Foakes, next best probably Butler over the last 2 years but essentially we are not playing a specialist keeper.

The question is why are we not? And that whacks is in the head constantly...until we get some batsmen earning their living then Foakes misses out. Maybe a slim chance for the Sri Lanka tour.

The irony not lost is in a England shirt Foskes has a perfectly respectable batting average.someone on here will know the exact average I donít..but itís healthy.

I think the correct choice for anyone is Foakes - catches win matches, and he will take a far higher percentage than Bairstow (who is better than Buttler) or Buttler ever will.  He may not play eye catching innings - he may possibly have a weakness against express pace - but at this stage, his exclusion is inexplicable.  YJB, Buttler et al have to earn their spots with the bat alone.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SurreySam on November 25, 2019, 08:02:58 PM
Am I the only one thinking - where did Jofras pace go?

Watched the first 4 days live and saw him over 150kph only once, which was the delivery after being denied an LBW. The rest of the time Jofra was loitering around the late 130's kph with a few into the 140's, which when compared with Stokes who was firing them down at high 130's and the odd 140's in his spells, seems a little weird. To be honest though; the bowling was just as average, as the batting. If not more so. 

Also, Butler had a huge number of unfair byes chalked up against him. But overall, England just didn't seem that mentally switched on, or even that hungry for it. 

Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on November 25, 2019, 09:42:22 PM
The real debate should actually be Ďdoes the Dukes ball oversell the ability of the English bowlersí?

Weíve seen in favourable conditions Anderson and Broad have merry with the Dukes ball, that includes in the Caribbean and UAE - Pakistan uses a dukes ball manufacturer in their own country.

But as soon as we get to Australia, South Africa, New Zealand and Sri Lanka the seam bowlers are average with the kookaburra ball. Likewise in India with the SG ball - SG and kookaburra are same company?

Maybe instead of pretending we are the Ďkings of swingí, we should start using the kookaburra ball as well to actually develop the required skills needed in overseas tours.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Buzz on November 25, 2019, 10:30:27 PM
Am I the only one thinking - where did Jofras pace go?

Watched the first 4 days live and saw him over 150kph only once, which was the delivery after being denied an LBW. The rest of the time Jofra was loitering around the late 130's kph with a few into the 140's, which when compared with Stokes who was firing them down at high 130's and the odd 140's in his spells, seems a little weird. To be honest though; the bowling was just as average, as the batting. If not more so. 

Also, Butler had a huge number of unfair byes chalked up against him. But overall, England just didn't seem that mentally switched on, or even that hungry for it.
43 overs in the heat over two days will do that to anyone.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: shadowlight on November 25, 2019, 11:39:45 PM
For me Foakes is the keeper to have and even Buttler said as much in Sri Lanka, where he said Foakes standard is where the keepers need to be. 
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 26, 2019, 08:00:07 AM
For me Foakes is the keeper to have and even Buttler said as much in Sri Lanka, where he said Foakes standard is where the keepers need to be.

Totally agree. England need to move away from this obsession of having an average keeper who can biff the ball a bit when required, but struggles when defence is the order of the day. I thought Foakes looked really good in his previous England matches, and was very unlucky to lose his spot. Same with Malan, who didnít really do anything wrong either. England have developed a habit of picking ďnamesĒ based on reputation, rather than form, and whatís right for the test side. Ed Smith may think heís a clever clogs, but his method of selection leaves a lot to be desired.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: billyb on November 28, 2019, 06:08:56 AM
Hilariously, Buttler is likely injured and instead of getting Foakes, Pope will keep with limited experience even at the first class level.
What are they smoking at the ECB?!
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: alexhilly1492 on November 28, 2019, 06:51:02 AM
To be fair (and I do think flakes should be in the side)

Flakes didn't have the best summer with the gloves yes but with the bat I don't recAll him making a score (Surrey fans feel free to correct me here)
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 28, 2019, 06:54:00 AM
Hilariously, Buttler is likely injured and instead of getting Foakes, Pope will keep with limited experience even at the first class level.
What are they smoking at the ECB?!

He did well with the gloves on my International Cricket Captain 2019 game on the iPad. Perhaps Iíve stumbled across the secret as to how Ed Smith comes up with his more ridiculous decisions, as he certainly doesnít seem to watch any cricket other than when he watches test matches, sitting next to James Taylor and wearing his and his trendy sunglasses.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: edge on November 28, 2019, 08:36:55 AM
Don't really see the problem, not ideal for Pope of course but a specialist backup keeper is a bit of a wasted spot for a 2 test series if you've already got two extra guys who've kept at first class level in the squad. Big chance for Zak Crawley!

Speculation Leach could get dropped to play 5 seamers... because that always goes well.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SD on November 28, 2019, 09:22:24 AM
We took a risk with only one specialist keeper in the squad, but for a 2-test series it was probably the right decision.

Foakes was very unlucky to be dropped by England but after a summer averaging 26 with the bat there was no way he should have been on this tour
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SOULMAN1012 on November 28, 2019, 09:28:48 AM
Never seen him keep but I remember Alex Stewart talking about him when he first game on the scene and made a point of talking about him as a very accomplished glove man which is high praise from one of Englandís best keepers ever. So i guess we shall see.
Be good to see in some way that another batter that can keep ensures Bairstow stays away from the test team for a while but Pope gets out in this test in the same manner as his dismissals in the 1st test than there is hope for all of us Village keepers to get a test gig lol
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 28, 2019, 09:43:11 AM
Never seen him keep but I remember Alex Stewart talking about him when he first game on the scene and made a point of talking about him as a very accomplished glove man which is high praise from one of Englandís best keepers ever. So i guess we shall see.
Be good to see in some way that another batter that can keep ensures Bairstow stays away from the test team for a while but Pope gets out in this test in the same manner as his dismissals in the 1st test than there is hope for all of us Village keepers to get a test gig lol

Has Alec Stewart ever not talked up a Surrey player?
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: rickjames on November 28, 2019, 09:49:47 AM
Has Alec Stewart ever not talked up a Surrey player?

To be fair he did hammer Ollie the other day for his dismissals; his small bias is no different to any other former England player and their county.

The fact Foakes isn't keeping still irks me, we've all seen how good he is
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 28, 2019, 09:53:19 AM
To be fair he did hammer Ollie the other day for his dismissals; his small bias is no different to any other former England player and their county.

The fact Foakes isn't keeping still irks me, we've all seen how good he is

I think the player most harshly treated is Daffyd Malan. He should still be in this team.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: ppccopener on November 28, 2019, 10:10:00 AM
We took a risk with only one specialist keeper in the squad, but for a 2-test series it was probably the right decision.

Foakes was very unlucky to be dropped by England but after a summer averaging 26 with the bat there was no way he should have been on this tour

you have a point, keepers modern day have to score runs and contribute with the bat, in fact in an England shirt Foakes have not let us down.

someone on here the other day asked why Archer's pace was down, Buzz replied 42 overs in the heat means unless he is superhuman his pace will be down. Only  Leach bowled more overs than Archer in the last match.

what about the effect of a non specialist keeper being in the field 200 overs? we have struggled overseas for a few years, can we really expect a non specialist to do the job in those conditions?

massive fan of Foakes as are many others on here, just posing the question for another viewpoint, if bowlers ae affected, so are keepers.....
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: alexhilly1492 on November 28, 2019, 10:19:26 AM
you have a point, keepers modern day have to score runs and contribute with the bat, in fact in an England shirt Foakes have not let us down.

someone on here the other day asked why Archer's pace was down, Buzz replied 42 overs in the heat means unless he is superhuman his pace will be down. Only  Leach bowled more overs than Archer in the last match.

what about the effect of a non specialist keeper being in the field 200 overs? we have struggled overseas for a few years, can we really expect a non specialist to do the job in those conditions?

massive fan of Foakes as are many others on here, just posing the question for another viewpoint, if bowlers ae affected, so are keepers.....

absolutely keepers are effected i think most have said how difficult it is in the sub continent with the humidity.

that being said didnt foakes go an entire test in sri lanka without conceding a bye last time over there?
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: alexhilly1492 on November 28, 2019, 11:25:44 AM
anyone else noticed that Ramprakash has been incredibly critical of pretty much everything root does, and Silverwood on this tour, since he got the sack?

i dont think ive heard him say anything positive about the England set up, is it sour grapes or more truthful that we'd like to think?
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 28, 2019, 11:34:01 AM
I have a feeling that the Silverwood era isnít going to be too dissimilar to the two Moores eras.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Wazza08 on November 28, 2019, 11:56:39 AM
absolutely keepers are effected i think most have said how difficult it is in the sub continent with the humidity.

that being said didnt foakes go an entire test in sri lanka without conceding a bye last time over there?
Do keepers just get it harshly then?  Looking at it there, it seems like most/all the players made a mistake that cost at least a run during the games through a misfield etc.  Whilst no byes may be aspirational in a game of that length is it realistic?  Also there is always the odd one that does actually come off a pad etc that gets given as byes?  They field a HUGE number of balls extra than all the other players too so proportionally it is a very small error rate?  Just feel a bit sorry for the keeper when that happens as more in the spotlight than others, and this is from a non keeper.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Buzz on November 28, 2019, 03:30:26 PM
The chat around the impact on only having a part time keeper is baring fruit as Buttler is likely to be out of the match with Ollie Pope keeping...!

Woakes being considered instead of Leach too depending on the pitch.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: alexhilly1492 on November 28, 2019, 03:35:44 PM
Do keepers just get it harshly then?  Looking at it there, it seems like most/all the players made a mistake that cost at least a run during the games through a misfield etc.  Whilst no byes may be aspirational in a game of that length is it realistic?  Also there is always the odd one that does actually come off a pad etc that gets given as byes?  They field a HUGE number of balls extra than all the other players too so proportionally it is a very small error rate?  Just feel a bit sorry for the keeper when that happens as more in the spotlight than others, and this is from a non keeper.

there are lots of variable yes, but like i say im pretty sure foakes went through a test (either first or second) without conceding one
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: six and out on November 28, 2019, 04:28:29 PM
I think it's interesting that when you look at the top test sides they all have/pick a proper keeper rather than a batter in them.

India - Saha rather than Pant
Australia - Paine rather than Wade keeping and playing an extra option etc...
NZ - Watling rather than Seifert
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SD on November 28, 2019, 04:48:04 PM
I have a feeling that the Silverwood era isnít going to be too dissimilar to the two Moores eras.

I have similar fears for the current set up.  For his faults, Strauss has both a clarity of purpose and of how to get there and Bayliss was a high class operator who delivered on his brief to turn england into a too white ball side.  I just don't see that with Giles and Silverwood I am sad to say
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SD on November 28, 2019, 04:56:13 PM
I think it's interesting that when you look at the top test sides they all have/pick a proper keeper rather than a batter in them.

India - Saha rather than Pant
Australia - Paine rather than Wade keeping and playing an extra option etc...
NZ - Watling rather than Seifert

I am not sure this is the way the international sides do view the selection of the keeper.  Go back a generation or more and keepers with batting averages in the 20s were common.  Now there is an expectation of being able to contribute more with the bat.

Of the three you name, Watling has a better first class record than Seifert and I don't see Paine making the Australian 11 of he weren't captain
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: rickjames on November 28, 2019, 09:26:35 PM
Pope keeping wicket, Crawley debut, Buttler out, Leach out, Woakes in

Why do I fear not having a frontline spinner
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 28, 2019, 09:28:36 PM
Pope keeping wicket, Crawley debut, Buttler out, Leach out, Woakes in

Why do I fear not having a frontline spinner

Speechless. England have lost the plot.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: rickjames on November 28, 2019, 09:34:32 PM
Jesus Christ, what a mess
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: csnew on November 28, 2019, 09:35:12 PM
Surprised NZ have prepared a green top being 1-0 up.

Shouldíve played on a flat track and done what they did last game. Green top plays into Englandís bowlers hands
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 28, 2019, 09:38:12 PM
Mark Butcher is thrilled with the XI too.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SD on November 28, 2019, 09:51:36 PM
I can only assume that Stokes isn't fully fit to bowl so they felt they needed a 4th seamer because it doesn't look like the shkr4 of pitch where a spinner would be redundant
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on November 28, 2019, 10:05:30 PM
What the Duckworth Lewis is going on with this selection?

The Silverwood era has descended to insanity 2 Tests in :(
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: ppccopener on November 28, 2019, 10:09:53 PM
Looks like we have panicked a bit, sadly I feel whatever happens here Bairstow will return, with Root bigging him up in the press it looks on the cards to me.

England...we revert to type a lot and this side selected basically says we cannot get the runs to have a spinner in.plenty have been fooled by green pitches.

Hope I am wrong but I think we are going backwards
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 28, 2019, 10:13:39 PM
Broad is definitely going to be the Advanced Hair Studioís next cricketing ambassador.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: csnew on November 28, 2019, 10:23:28 PM
Archerís pace seems to have disappeared after the ashes
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 28, 2019, 10:25:34 PM
This could be a Nasser Hussain-style toss decision. Itís done nowt so far.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 28, 2019, 10:30:47 PM
Great team selection and toss. Never doubted them. ;)

16/1.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on November 28, 2019, 10:31:53 PM
This could be a Nasser Hussain-style toss decision. Itís done nowt so far.

9 more of these please!
This one worked well :D
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 28, 2019, 10:38:43 PM
9 more of these please!
This one worked well :D

Iíll try my best, but Iím feeling rather sleepy and I donít think Iíll be watching beyond 11:30.

I wonder if the team decides how quick (or in this case, slow) Archer will bowl, or do they leave it up to him? With 5 seamers they can surely save him for short, sharp bursts, rather than this early 80s mph stuff he seems to be content with dishing up in tests.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on November 28, 2019, 10:52:13 PM
Looks like we have panicked a bit, sadly I feel whatever happens here Bairstow will return, with Root bigging him up in the press it looks on the cards to me.

England...we revert to type a lot and this side selected basically says we cannot get the runs to have a spinner in.plenty have been fooled by green pitches.

Hope I am wrong but I think we are going backwards
On what basis would Bairstow get recalled? Heís not even playing and after his pathetic efforts last summer he needs a 1000+ season for Yorkshire to even get a sniff.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 28, 2019, 10:55:31 PM
On what basis would Bairstow get recalled? Heís not even playing and after his pathetic efforts last summer he needs a 1000+ season for Yorkshire to even get a sniff.

Agreed. Bairstow walking back in to the side without any runs would be sending the wrong message. He was truly horrendous last summer... all the Aussies needed to do was bowl a straight one, and Bairstow would drive, miss and get bowled. His technique needs a lot of work if heís going to get back.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: rickjames on November 28, 2019, 11:01:43 PM
Bloody hell, he's got one
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 28, 2019, 11:01:49 PM
Williamson gone!! England on fire!! Ed Smith is a genius!!
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: ppccopener on November 28, 2019, 11:07:15 PM
On what basis would Bairstow get recalled? Heís not even playing and after his pathetic efforts last summer he needs a 1000+ season for Yorkshire to even get a sniff.

Totally agree...I want to see pope and Sibley be given time, maybe Crawley as well.

My thinking is if Foakes is not going to play..I donít think for SA he will get picked...then I think England will revert to give them cover...

Plus...Root may have a say.

Hope Iím wrong but time will tell, England...we seem to panic in selection quite quickly
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: billyb on November 29, 2019, 12:01:06 AM
What a mess. Not seeing much joined up thinking in this team right now. Happy to see Pope, Crawley and Sibley get a go though.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: rickjames on November 29, 2019, 01:18:47 AM
Err, BS decisions
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: shax12 on November 29, 2019, 02:06:05 AM
Err, BS decisions

Lol how many decisions been in Englands favour this year alone you don't look at that.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: billyb on November 29, 2019, 02:22:00 AM
I've had enough of this. Broad and Woakes should take the new ball. Archer should be used as an impact bowler with short, sharp spells. Curran and Stokes offer something a bit different. You still need a spinner... otherwise Root ends up bowling before lunch(!). I'm sorry, Root- but your time as captain is up.

Woakes has two at least. Hope he gets 5!
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: billyb on November 29, 2019, 02:30:38 AM
Burns
Sibley
Denly
Root
Stokes
Pope
Foakes
Woakes
Leach
Archer
Broad

Curran, Crawley etc next in line.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: csnew on November 29, 2019, 07:27:14 AM
Great day for NZ after being put in. England probably not made the most of conditions and with stokes unlikely to bowl with his knee injury.
Bet they wished they played a spinner now
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 29, 2019, 08:41:30 AM
Awful day, which would have likely been worse if the weather hadnít intervened. On the plus side, the forecast for the next few days isnít great, so Iíd give England only a 72.3% chance of losing.

I have run out of patience with Ed Smith. He needs to go, and be replaced by someone who actually watches county cricket, and doesnít think heís intellectually superior to everybody around him and therefore thinks every squad selection is a mark of his genius. On the downside, that likely means weíd hear his smug tones back on TMS, and probably James ĎClichťí Taylor too.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SLA on November 29, 2019, 11:28:05 AM
The ECB abandoned their focus on test cricket a decade ago. Junior coaching is set up to produce white ball players, ECB pathways are set up to produce white ball players, the county schedule is set up to produce white ball players.

Its been that way for some time. A decade ago I was told by an ECB rep at a coaching event that we shouldn't teach the forward defence and the awayswinger anymore as it was a waste of a talented players time. Teach them the paddle sweep and the knuckleball instead, he said - our focus should be to maximise their revenue earning potential, which means getting them an IPL contract for a season.

Young batsmen no longer go off to spend the winter in grade cricket or the Ranji trophy to learn how to bat all day against the turning ball or short stuff on bouncy pitches. If they go anywhere its on a T20 jolly with the Lions. More likely they stay at home and hit line drives against bowling machines. And we're supposed to be surprised that they can't win tests away from home any more?

You can't suddenly turn that around and become "good" at test cricket again overnight when you have made no attempt to coach a single young cricketer how to play test cricket for the last decade. It would take another decade to reverse the structural and operational changes that the ECB have put in place.

But guess what? For all their lip service and spin to how much of "a priority" test cricket is, they have absolutely no intention of doing that.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Manormanic on November 29, 2019, 03:00:36 PM
I have run out of patience with Ed Smith. He needs to go, and be replaced by someone who actually watches county cricket, and doesnít think heís intellectually superior to everybody around him and therefore thinks every squad selection is a mark of his genius. On the downside, that likely means weíd hear his smug tones back on TMS, and probably James ĎClichťí Taylor too.

Have to agree with this.  England's selection was briefly spot on during the Flower era, not just because of the consistency that achievement allowed but because left field choices (Tremlett in Australia when he had hardly played the season before) made mostly perfect sense. 

The last four year cycle has been awful.  Yes, the one day side has done incredibly well - but you would say that that has an element of "inspite of" rather than "because of" when it comes down to the powers that be - after all, England started with the bounty of six huge hitters (Hales, Roy, Buttler, Morgan, Stokes, Ali) and added another in Bairstow which, when allied to the fact that all of their bowlers can bat, made them as near sure things as you can get int eh format.

In the longer form, what have we managed?  Over four years, we have probably only got two players who have really improved - Stokes and Woakes - whilst key players have gotten old (Anderson, Broad, arguably Woakes) or dropped off (Root) and those coming into the team have three game honeymoon's then tail off remarkably.  For this tour, a squad of 15 contained two players they clearly had no intention of selecting, but they didn't bother to bring a second experienced keeper so they've ended up with a young lad who, whilst he seemed to do okay yesterday, is not a regular and who, as a batsman, has shown nerves in adjusting to the Test game and ought to have been left to it.  They have a strike bowler who is bowled into the ground, a workhorse given little work, a captain whose batting is being adversely affected, a keeper who wouldn't look great in club cricket and a ginger allrounder who looks like the side is getting really heavy....
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SD on November 29, 2019, 07:19:32 PM
Yesterday was a day that demonstrates the fine margins at the top level.  The decision to overturn the Taylor LBW was farcical and for the second game running Stokes has been punished for putting down a catch.  Take 75 runs off the score, add two wickets and get the chance to bowl at the lower middle order and it becomes a very good day. 
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 29, 2019, 09:32:03 PM
Come on Jofra, wind it up!
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 29, 2019, 09:38:08 PM
Latham gone! Left a straight one!
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Sam on November 29, 2019, 09:47:38 PM
Young batsmen no longer go off to spend the winter in grade cricket or the Ranji trophy to learn how to bat all day against the turning ball or short stuff on bouncy pitches. If they go anywhere its on a T20 jolly with the Lions. More likely they stay at home and hit line drives against bowling machines. And we're supposed to be surprised that they can't win tests away from home any more?

There are loads of young Englishmen playing grade cricket every season still. Infact every single batsman in the test squad barring Buttler has spent time playing grade cricket off the top of my head. Young batsmen have never gone over and played in the Ranji trophy.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: csnew on November 29, 2019, 10:02:17 PM
Full time keeper might have taken that  :D. Was bound to happen wasnít it
Canít afford to drop watling
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 29, 2019, 10:03:30 PM
Full time keeper might have taken that  :D. Was bound to happen wasnít it
Canít afford to drop watling

Definitely a drop. Commentators being way too kind.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on November 29, 2019, 10:10:02 PM
Are we watching the same game?

That didn't carry and Pope isn't exactly stood miles back! Would a "proper" keeper have been stood closer and taken it? Maybe, but putting that as a drop against Pope is a bit harsh
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 29, 2019, 10:19:27 PM
Are we watching the same game?

That didn't carry and Pope isn't exactly stood miles back! Would a "proper" keeper have been stood closer and taken it? Maybe, but putting that as a drop against Pope is a bit harsh

He was on his heels and looked away at the most important moment. He should be standing up to Curran... heís bowling mid-70s!
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on November 29, 2019, 10:23:43 PM
To say a reserve/part time keeper should be stood up to Curran is a ridiculous statement.

If anything you could say he doesn't get low in has stance so had to go down and forward instead of just going forward, but again it's harsh to pick holes in the technique of a back up gloveman who's only done it 5 times.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 29, 2019, 10:29:06 PM
To say a reserve/part time keeper should be stood up to Curran is a ridiculous statement.

If anything you could say he doesn't get low in has stance so had to go down and forward instead of just going forward, but again it's harsh to pick holes in the technique of a back up gloveman who's only done it 5 times.

Fair point.

A part time keeper shouldnít be playing in a test match. It all goes back to Englandís ridiculous selection policy. Actually, calling it a policy is giving it too much credit.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on November 29, 2019, 10:34:41 PM
Fair point.

A part time keeper shouldnít be playing in a test match. It all goes back to Englandís ridiculous selection policy. Actually, calling it a policy is giving it too much credit.

This hits the nail on the head.
Pope will get slated because of Smith's moronic approach to selection. Not taking a second keeper was always a risk, and this has backfired spectacularly.
Love him or loathe him, YJB was in New Zealand and was even on standby as cover for Denly. While he's in no way the answer you can't help feel extending his holiday in New Zealand wouldn't have been the worst move in the world. Hindsight, eh...
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: HellomynameisJ on November 29, 2019, 10:38:24 PM
It might be harsh, but he's playing test cricket. That was a drop, and he dropped it because he has poor technique. If you pick bits and pieces cricketers, you get rewarded as such.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 29, 2019, 10:39:17 PM
Wow what a rubbish referral. Pitched outside, he hit it, and heís very lucky not to be called for a no ball!
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: WABH-J on November 29, 2019, 11:22:53 PM
concerned at the lack of pace from the quicks - Archer's speeds are right down, as our Broad's
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: rickjames on November 29, 2019, 11:39:28 PM
Archer really can't be bothered
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: csnew on November 30, 2019, 08:15:17 AM
Archer really can't be bothered

Send him back to Barbados  :D. Canít wait to see him sulk when he bowls on the subcontinent.
I see him following the West Indies way and giving up test cricket to play on the t20 circuit.

Decent day for NZ after losing 2 early on in the day - tough to see a result with the rain around
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 30, 2019, 09:33:18 AM
Itís almost as if Chris Silverwood is trying to get all the bowlers to bowl like Chris Silverwood. Thereís no variation, and all the speeds are pretty much identical. Even Jofra has turned in to an early/mid 80s plodder. Where is the guy who terrorised Steve Smith with 97mph missiles?

Jofra is a big issue, and I think it might be Rootís fault. He overbowled him in the summer, and I think heís still doing so. I understand the temptation to keep him bowling, but heís got to be stricter with himself. He should be there to bowl short, sharp bursts of 4-5 overs, when he can give 100% effort, and maybe repeat this over 4-5 spells over the course of the day.

Iím sorry, but Sam Curran isnít an international bowler. Late 70s wonít get it done against decent batters in benign conditions. I like the left arm variation, but surely there must a left arm bowler out there who can bring a hit more heat?
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Manormanic on November 30, 2019, 10:17:13 AM
Itís almost as if Chris Silverwood is trying to get all the bowlers to bowl like Chris Silverwood.

Would that he were. At least Silvers has gas.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: rickjames on November 30, 2019, 12:28:37 PM
Send him back to Barbados  :D. Canít wait to see him sulk when he bowls on the subcontinent.
I see him following the West Indies way and giving up test cricket to play on the t20 circuit.

Decent day for NZ after losing 2 early on in the day - tough to see a result with the rain around

I don't know if I'm being harsh but if he can't take up a notch like he's more than capable of doing, then he's as dispensable the other bowlers on the tour; even when he was having 4/5 over spells briefly it was nothing more than mid 80s. Is it the player or the captain?

The more I mull it over the more I realise how much we miss Jimmy
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: billyb on November 30, 2019, 06:22:32 PM
I wonder if Root has lost the team & the dressing room. The body language, the apparent lack of effort by some... All is not well in the camp.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 30, 2019, 06:52:26 PM
I wonder if Root has lost the team & the dressing room. The body language, the apparent lack of effort by some... All is not well in the camp.

I donít think Archer has much respect for him. Think he would choose Morgan over him every single time. I noticed the body language yesterday too... the whole team looked a bit lethargic and not up for the fight. Rootís captaincy is totally uninspiring. If heís going to stay in the job he really needs to pick the brains of Vaughan and Strauss, who have been two of the best man managers in red ball cricket in the last 20 years for England.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Coach on November 30, 2019, 07:02:10 PM
He was on his heels and looked away at the most important moment. He should be standing up to Curran... heís bowling mid-70s!

Interesting conversation here gents, agree that it was a chance, however Iím not so sure about being stood up. Speed isnít the only factor in this discussion which is why it doesnít happen more in test cricket.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 30, 2019, 07:15:29 PM
Interesting conversation here gents, agree that it was a chance, however Iím not so sure about being stood up. Speed isnít the only factor in this discussion which is why it doesnít happen more in test cricket.

My ďhe should be standing upĒ comment was in the heat of the moment, and in hindsight was a bit silly, given who the keeper in question is. However, I still stand by my comments that Pope should not be keeping, and Curran is not quick enough to be a test bowler. He might get it to hoop around in England when itís cloudy, but anywhere else, with the Kookaburra ball, heís not offering anything other than a different angle (and even thatís not a particularly big benefit given Englandís obsession with bowling around the wicket at the moment).
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: ppccopener on November 30, 2019, 08:07:58 PM
I donít think Archer has much respect for him. Think he would choose Morgan over him every single time. I noticed the body language yesterday too... the whole team looked a bit lethargic and not up for the fight. Rootís captaincy is totally uninspiring. If heís going to stay in the job he really needs to pick the brains of Vaughan and Strauss, who have been two of the best man managers in red ball cricket in the last 20 years for England.

Hmmm..interesting take on things. Giles saying Root will be captain in 24 matches time is insanity, he has no feel for the job and itís affecting his batting- you cannot argue with stats since taking over, donít like only figures myself, but they rarely lie.

As for Archer, misused by Root yes, in the summer and now, but I guess a lot maybe down to the player himself, bowling in tests is hard work on batter friendly wickets. I think he is a limited overs bowler...and will have a very short test career...just a gut feeling.

The one thing you can do if skippering is not natural is lead from the front but Roots own game is suffering.i feel a bit sorry for him actually.

Sometimes the hard decision is better taken early, wonder if the England management can see it and ignore it or not see it at all
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 30, 2019, 08:26:53 PM
Hmmm..interesting take on things. Giles saying Root will be captain in 24 matches time is insanity, he has no feel for the job and itís affecting his batting- you cannot argue with stats since taking over, donít like only figures myself, but they rarely lie.

As for Archer, misused by Root yes, in the summer and now, but I guess a lot maybe down to the player himself, bowling in tests is hard work on batter friendly wickets. I think he is a limited overs bowler...and will have a very short test career...just a gut feeling.

The one thing you can do if skippering is not natural is lead from the front but Roots own game is suffering.i feel a bit sorry for him actually.

Sometimes the hard decision is better taken early, wonder if the England management can see it and ignore it or not see it at all

I genuinely do not think Giles is capable of making a tough decision. He doesnít strike me as the sort of person who would take Root/Silverwood/Ed Smith to one side and say ďsorry, this isnít working and we need to make a change ASAPĒ. I think he will wait for Root to say heís had enough. The ECB are suffering from weak leadership from top to bottom. The current set up could set England back years.

Maybe a 2-0 drubbing by NZ, and a 4-0 defeat in SA may make people realise there are serious problems.

What baffles me (and I apologise for continuing to whine about him) is how Ed Bloody Smith is continuing to avoid any criticism in the media. His selections have been nothing short of disastrous. Having heard from some of the Kent guys what a complete dick he was in the dressing room in the early 2000s, it doesnít surprise me that his selections are thick with his customary ďI know better than youĒ arrogance.

Please come back, Mr Strauss... your country needs you.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Buzz on November 30, 2019, 08:46:49 PM
Is this the same Ashley Giles who sacked Ramprakash and Flower ?
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 30, 2019, 08:53:28 PM
Is this the same Ashley Giles who sacked Ramprakash and Flower ?

Fair point. That said, Stevie Wonder could have seen that Ramps as a batting coach wasnít working. As for getting shot of Flower, I think heíll live to regret it. Him and Strauss did wonders for English cricket, and I think itís a huge mistake for someone with such a stellar track record to have been cast aside.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Northern monkey on November 30, 2019, 09:07:39 PM
How manyís Root gonna get?
Serious pressure
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 30, 2019, 09:11:46 PM
How manyís Root gonna get?
Serious pressure

The weather forecast has improved - no rain in Hamilton until Tuesday now. Overcast this morning... Root out within the first 30 minutes and England all out halfway through the afternoon session. Only Sir Ben Stokes, with his beautiful GM bats can save us from certain defeat.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 30, 2019, 09:38:05 PM
England havenít made 400 for two years. The ODI side have done it twice over the same period.

Thereís definitely nothing wrong with the test setup...
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: csnew on November 30, 2019, 09:39:27 PM
How manyís Root gonna get?
Serious pressure

The flat track specialist is due
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on November 30, 2019, 09:45:41 PM
The flat track specialist is due

Ian Bell is playing?  :D
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: rickjames on December 01, 2019, 12:00:55 AM
Decent session that. Need to up the run rate though if they're serious about just batting once...
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: hammersjr on December 01, 2019, 03:56:55 AM
Batted joe, ground that ton out
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: billyb on December 01, 2019, 05:12:21 AM
Good from Burns and Root.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: rickjames on December 01, 2019, 07:59:12 AM
Much more like the Root of old as he carried on, class to watch. Great from Burnsy as well
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on December 01, 2019, 08:12:38 AM
Good innings from Burns and Root. Not entirely sure where Rootís power has gone when driving though?

Still over 100 behind, so letís not get too excited just yet. Hopefully Joe will be able to start again, which heís not been great at in the past, and Iíd love to see Pope get some runs. I feel that he just needs to get a 50, then heíll feel he belongs and start churning out the runs.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: csnew on December 01, 2019, 08:22:35 AM
The flat track specialist is due

No surprise that roots got a 100 on a road
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: alexhilly1492 on December 01, 2019, 09:16:52 AM
No surprise that roots got a 100 on a road

No surprise people are taking away from his 100

You'd be criticising him if he failed with England so far behind!

Can't have it both ways!

Good from root yesterday looked much better! Needs to kick on in the morning and get a buggy if we get close to parity game is as good as over with the time left

Well batted Joe (and Rory) keep going!
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: jonny77 on December 01, 2019, 10:00:27 AM
Gotta say I agree mate, he frankly can't win. Everyone's been calling out for Root to kick on to a ton, yet when he does it's a road. Plenty have failed on it tho and NZ haven't got the worst attack out there.

Some fairly big assumptions being made on what's seen from thousands of miles away too. Unless we've got some inside info? You may not rate Roots captaincy, but remember he's working without a top class spinner, a half cooked Stokes, half a new batting line up and without our one world class seamer with over 500 wickets to his name. Not quite as easy as it seems maybe?

We're a team in transition and it'll take some time. Think we have to take these things into consideration and these points wouldn't change just by changing captain. Also, who else is there we'd like to see take charge?
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: alexhilly1492 on December 01, 2019, 10:07:28 AM
Exactly! So much more than we see as fans even though we get more access than ever

On the more of captaincy I'm not a root fan and think Burns is the best bet, he however needs to settle in to opening first

I think his captaincy is having a negative effect on the rest of his game but root is our captain and will have my support whatever happens
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on December 01, 2019, 01:16:01 PM
We need to stop treating every other Test series as 'preparation for the Ashes'?
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: billyb on December 01, 2019, 03:41:30 PM
We need to stop treating every other Test series as 'preparation for the Ashes'?

Exactly this. Hopefully this new Test Championship will add some motivation to that.

We are definitely a side in transition. When you look at the team sheet, not many players pick themselves it seems. Burns, Root, Stokes, Broad, Anderson. It seems the rest still need to prove themselves- even Woakes in the eyes of the selectors.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Buzz on December 01, 2019, 04:21:07 PM
I have been ranting about this a little on Twitter, but it is very apparent that the English batters aren't nearly as technically able as the kiwi batsmen.

When defending our batsmen play from the crease half forward. When the Kiwis bat the get they heads towards the ball and are much closer to the pitch of the ball.

This awful English approach is something they have been doing for a while, but it has become a trend now.
What it means is they batsmen are much too deep in the crease playing "forward" and are making it much harder to rotate the strike.
As well as making lbws more likely.

This is a techniques thing that I think Ramps and Thorpe are pushing. Needless to say I am not a fan.
Even Stokes now is taking a massive back and across move which is why he was out as he was no where near the pitch when playing his shot.
Stokes is supposed to be our most technically able player and he is being wrecked.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on December 01, 2019, 04:28:51 PM
He had a few lives and on another day could have been out for a lot less but well batted burns and root seems to have dropped his large back and across crap. Still not getting into thr ball hence his driving power being down but meh. Runs were needed for the lad.

Agree with buzz though, worrying trend in Englandís batters and we still have no one bar root avgíing anything like what is required.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on December 01, 2019, 09:41:36 PM
Pope looks so good. If he doesnít retire having scored 10,000+ test runs Iíll give my GN Legend bat away for free.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: FattusCattus on December 01, 2019, 10:05:19 PM
Still confused about Archer - don't get the bowling within yourself, don't get the early 80's spells. Why have a shotgun that fires gobstoppers?

If it's the captain - WHAT ARE YOU THINKING! Use him like you should, 3-4 overs nasty spells.

If it's the bowler - pull you're f*cking finger out, and put a shift in for your teammates!!!

Life is not a rehearsal, get dem wickets!!!!
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SD on December 01, 2019, 10:38:51 PM
Archer shouldn't be on this tour.  Guys that can crank it up to 90mph+ a few and far between and you have to look after them.  Root bowled Archer into the ground during the Ashes after an exhausting world cup.  Not a surprise if you drag him away for an overseas tour without a proper break.

Personally I don't think any of the test team who were involved in the world cup should have flown across the world for a 2-test series so soon after the end of the English season.  Like the limited over a squad, it would have been better to send a development squad
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on December 01, 2019, 11:02:59 PM
Can't we stop this nonsense about Archer 'being tired' or 'sulking with Root'.

Everyone seems to be forgetting he's not been playing as much red ball cricket as the other guys that are actual fast bowlers.

Archer's was essentially a T20 globetrotter. Then suddenly the residency rules changed to shoehorn him into the England setup. He used up a lot of energy during the WC and Ashes. Probably the most he's played in a long time. The tank is probably flashing empty.

He's clearing not got the miles in his legs and it's looking out of sorts. This nonsense that 'he can bowl 95mph' means nothing.

Give him 200 overs for Sussex and he'll be back in the groove.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: jonny77 on December 01, 2019, 11:19:08 PM
 :D
(https://i.postimg.cc/Zq8wr17N/20191201-231805.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bGv0PFjY)free image hosting gallery (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: jamesisapayne on December 01, 2019, 11:24:30 PM
Good lad Billy.

Some of the absolute tosh written on here is laughable, written by people who haven't been anywhere near a first class setup, yet come across like they've got a test batting average of 99 and bowling average of 20.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: rickjames on December 01, 2019, 11:41:50 PM
Good partnership between Root and Pope, need to crack on with it if they're serious about pushing for a win
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: billyb on December 01, 2019, 11:43:11 PM
I think we all just want to see Root scoring the masses of runs that he has within him. He's the best England player of his generation- I don't want him to lose anything via captaincy.

What a fabulous knock this has been so far! I really want Pope to kick on.

I just read that they might recall Jennings for Sri Lanka due to his record in Asia. Makes sense to me!
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on December 02, 2019, 12:55:27 AM
And there's a maiden test 50 for Ollie Pope.
Well batted lad, keep going!
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on December 02, 2019, 01:30:16 AM
And now a double ton for Root

What a way to silence the critics
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: shadowlight on December 02, 2019, 01:36:46 AM

I just read that they might recall Jennings for Sri Lanka due to his record in Asia. Makes sense to me!

 :o

Congratulation to Root for the double and Pope for his half century.  I hope England do not think about making Pope the new wicket keeper batsmen based on today's innings in SA and SL.

What are the chances of getting a result in the game?  If Root declares he will likely declare with about 10  to 15 overs left in the day and with 43 overs left (as I am writing), England is likely to be ahead by ~170 runs or so (3 runs for over for the next 37 overs).  I do not believe 175 is going to be enough of a scoreboard pressure for NZ.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: billyb on December 02, 2019, 02:22:41 AM
Urgh, good of Pope to do that for the team but would have liked him to get his 100. Would have removed any questions about this place in the side for a long time.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: ppccopener on December 02, 2019, 05:11:48 PM
pleased for Root he got runs but more so for Pope, he is a serious talent and needs to bed in

as has been pointed out above Jennings heavily tipped for a recall for SL, this must be what Ed Smith referred to as 'horses for courses' selection

its a jamboree bag where players get picked based on their suitability for a tour. A bit like a computer game, so Jennings plays spin well, he gets picked on turning tracks, so and so plays pace well, he gets picked for Australia

how that helps players settle in to the highest form of the game is beyond me. Burns may not play spin that well, what do we do leave him out in the sub continent?

Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: alexhilly1492 on December 02, 2019, 06:22:35 PM
pleased for Root he got runs but more so for Pope, he is a serious talent and needs to bed in

as has been pointed out above Jennings heavily tipped for a recall for SL, this must be what Ed Smith referred to as 'horses for courses' selection

its a jamboree bag where players get picked based on their suitability for a tour. A bit like a computer game, so Jennings plays spin well, he gets picked on turning tracks, so and so plays pace well, he gets picked for Australia

how that helps players settle in to the highest form of the game is beyond me. Burns may not play spin that well, what do we do leave him out in the sub continent?

Burns debuted in Sri lanka, did ok couple of 50s

I'd give him the tour

Could be Jennings at 3 or as the spare
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on December 02, 2019, 07:00:43 PM
Blimey. Iím amazed some want Jennings back. He got worked out almost as quick at international level as Ballance did. Some players just arenít up to it for the long term, and my feeling is that Jennings is one of them. He went away to work on his game, came back, and had exactly the same issues again. I donít think Iíd give him a 3rd bite of the cherry.

Then again, you never know what Ed Bloody Smith is thinking. Wouldnít be surprised if he included Jennings, Ballance AND Sam Robson for good measure. The selection policy is a total mess, and itís entirely of his doing.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: billyb on December 02, 2019, 07:08:01 PM
Blimey. Iím amazed some want Jennings back. He got worked out almost as quick at international level as Ballance did. Some players just arenít up to it for the long term, and my feeling is that Jennings is one of them. He went away to work on his game, came back, and had exactly the same issues again. I donít think Iíd give him a 3rd bite of the cherry.

Then again, you never know what Ed Bloody Smith is thinking. Wouldnít be surprised if he included Jennings, Ballance AND Sam Robson for good measure. The selection policy is a total mess, and itís entirely of his doing.

I'm not sure anyone wants him back long term, but the point is that he is a run scorer in Asia, so it makes sense for him to be around the squad at least and ready to go if needed.

I'll defend Ballance until the end of time though, he has a genuinely very good record in an England shirt- I think only Root averages more in the past few years. 37.5 or something? But he's unlikely to get back in I guess.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Manormanic on December 02, 2019, 07:16:33 PM
I'm not sure anyone wants him back long term, but the point is that he is a run scorer in Asia, so it makes sense for him to be around the squad at least and ready to go if needed.

I'll defend Ballance until the end of time though, he has a genuinely very good record in an England shirt- I think only Root averages more in the past few years. 37.5 or something? But he's unlikely to get back in I guess.

I love Gazza as a Yorkshireman, but I can see why he is thought by the selectors to be less than the sum of his stats.  Horses for courses works, sorta, in selections like Jennings in Sri Lanka, Malan in Australia or Bairstow any time I feel the need to wind the haters on here up.  But you can't have a horses for courses selection for conditions where its pan flat and the opposition have noone over 82mph...
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SOULMAN1012 on December 02, 2019, 07:23:30 PM
So on that basis of selection I assume Foakes comes into selection for Sri Lanka!
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: ppccopener on December 02, 2019, 07:36:25 PM
So on that basis of selection I assume Foakes comes into selection for Sri Lanka!

Yes! Which would please a lot us of....the point is thou much as I want to love England and all we do Iím losing a bit of faith in selection.

I canít be alone on here, I know Iím not  :) letís say Jennings opens in SL, what does that mean for Sibley and maybe Crawley? Either we pick these guys and let them play or we donít.

England have said we are building a side to regain the Ashes away...how do we do this if players get shuffled around ?


Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: billyb on December 02, 2019, 07:46:01 PM
Yes! Which would please a lot us of....the point is thou much as I want to love England and all we do Iím losing a bit of faith in selection.

I canít be alone on here, I know Iím not  :) letís say Jennings opens in SL, what does that mean for Sibley and maybe Crawley? Either we pick these guys and let them play or we donít.

England have said we are building a side to regain the Ashes away...how do we do this if players get shuffled around ?

I agree with this. I get bringing players who are good in certain conditions back in, but we also need a consistent team... I guess that's the problem right now- selectors don't know what their strongest side is.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on December 02, 2019, 08:19:19 PM
Jennings and Malan were only 'horses for courses' by accident. It just so happened that they had ok-ish tours overseas but were rubbish at home. This wasn't something the selectors foresaw.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: billyb on December 02, 2019, 08:23:39 PM
Was Malan actually that bad? I can't remember.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on December 02, 2019, 08:44:34 PM
Was Malan actually that bad? I can't remember.

He was bad enough to get dropped. There was a mini argument on here as to whether he or Vince was the better player.

He'll probably come again, but I doubt as a 'horses for courses' selection.  More likely, simply because he's in form and other batsmen aren't performing.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on December 02, 2019, 08:53:23 PM
Crawley should definitely be dropped. Only scoring one run on debut is very poor indeed*





*this is what I reckon the brains trust of Smith and Taylor are thinking right now.

Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: edge on December 02, 2019, 09:39:28 PM
Don't think you can drop anyone established to bring in a horses for courses batsman in what should be good conditions, but wouldn't have any problem at all with Jennings in as a reserve bat for SL - he's proved he can get runs in Asian conditions. Of course, it would present an awkward situation if he got runs again... "Cheers Keaton, job well done mate. See you next winter for the India tour!"
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on December 02, 2019, 09:41:05 PM
SL are such a poor side at the moment that it could possibly give a false view on how adept someone is at test cricket.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on December 02, 2019, 09:47:00 PM
Jesus, that was an absolute shocker.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: billyb on December 02, 2019, 09:48:55 PM
That's exactly why Pope should never have been keeping. Poor bloke.
 
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Manormanic on December 02, 2019, 10:06:37 PM
He was bad enough to get dropped. There was a mini argument on here as to whether he or Vince was the better player.

He'll probably come again, but I doubt as a 'horses for courses' selection.  More likely, simply because he's in form and other batsmen aren't performing.

At the top level, he plays quick well. He doesn't do nibble off a good length quite so much.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: ppccopener on December 02, 2019, 10:16:55 PM
That's exactly why Pope should never have been keeping. Poor bloke.
 

Totally agree.This, sorry to say often read on CBF, Ďhe keeps a bit tooí really doesnít cut it.

While he has the gloves press and commentators will blame him. His future is a specialist batsman.

This tour really does not have much good going for it.

Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: rickjames on December 02, 2019, 10:20:36 PM
I don't think anyone has been remotely harsh on Pope and his keeping, not that I've seen. Didn't see Stokes berate him for that either.

Again, you could solve all the keeping problems by selecting Foakes, but they are clearly going down a Buttler/Barstow route for South Africa
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: rickjames on December 02, 2019, 10:41:58 PM
 Denly's drop, however. Jesus Christ
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: billyb on December 02, 2019, 10:43:38 PM
Borderline execution worthy.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: smilley792 on December 02, 2019, 10:54:43 PM
Hahahaha. Iíve dropped ones like that. Itís nice to see that test players do to.


Iím gonna bed though as this looks a draw.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SD on December 02, 2019, 10:55:22 PM
Seems perfectly sensible to me to take Jennings to Sri Lanka given he is our best opener against spin.  No one would question taking a bowling attack for the conditions you will be playing in
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: ch1p on December 02, 2019, 10:57:52 PM
Haven't seen the drop but it must be so difficult for him. I know he has done it through his career so far but just picking the gloves up a day or two before and then keeping two days, scoring a few runs to put them back on cannot be good especially on short notice.

There must have been some planning though with his GM keeping gear already being out there...  :D
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: ppccopener on December 02, 2019, 11:24:44 PM
Seems perfectly sensible to me to take Jennings to Sri Lanka given he is our best opener against spin.  No one would question taking a bowling attack for the conditions you will be playing in

Thatís a viewpoint, another would be if you look back to the sides that were up the top or the best in the world their batting(and bowling) line ups stayed pretty much the same regardless of where they were touring, the backed the players to adapt.

You could also have the view we are no where near knowing are best batting line up, the horses for courses conditions might mean we stay not knowing for ages.

Sri Lanka are a poor test side, we should beat them without Jennings but with Sibley,Crawley,Burns.

I say we should beat them  :)
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on December 02, 2019, 11:48:01 PM
Does anyone have a worse record with DRS than Joe Root?
He seems to burn reviews like nobody's business
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SD on December 03, 2019, 12:28:33 AM
Thatís a viewpoint, another would be if you look back to the sides that were up the top or the best in the world their batting(and bowling) line ups stayed pretty much the same regardless of where they were touring, the backed the players to adapt.

You could also have the view we are no where near knowing are best batting line up, the horses for courses conditions might mean we stay not knowing for ages.

Sri Lanka are a poor test side, we should beat them without Jennings but with Sibley,Crawley,Burns.

I say we should beat them  :)

I don't think that even with the best England sides there has been, you would see an 11 who finished a series in Sri Lanka to start the first test of an English summer.

Test wins always from home are hard to come by and this certainly isn't an England team that can afford to take anyone lightly.  I think that you just take one series at a time when  you are at the start of an Ashes cycle and simply pick the best squad for that series. 
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: billyb on December 03, 2019, 12:46:06 AM
Does anyone have a worse record with DRS than Joe Root?
He seems to burn reviews like nobody's business

Literally everyone, he's one of the best at DRS
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: shadowlight on December 03, 2019, 01:05:43 AM
Does anyone have a worse record with DRS than Joe Root?
He seems to burn reviews like nobody's business

Tim Paine
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Cricket on December 03, 2019, 03:55:51 AM
Just seen the joe Denly drop...the reaction on players faces.Archer runs away celebrating only to be told by Williamson that it has been dropped....priceless cricket.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: csnew on December 03, 2019, 05:26:33 AM
Another series win at home for NZ. Second best team in the world for a reason

Taylor and Williamson showed how flat this pitch was even on day 5. Wagner gets a lot of stick but highly effective bowler even at 78mph

Next couple of series should be a test for NZ, going to Aus and then hosting India. Think Raval needs to be dropped, looks out of form
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on December 03, 2019, 06:52:35 AM
Good series win for NZ. England were a disgrace in the first match, but a bit better here (well, Root and Burns were anyway).

The bowling lineup worries me for SA. They seem to be using the kookaburra ball for an excuse to bowl poorly, and even the UK media seem to be jumping on that bandwagon too. Letís not forget that the likes of Boult and all the Aussie quicks have excellent test figures using this ball, so it canít be that bad.

Wagner bowled great for NZ. Similar pace to Curran, but I know I would prefer to have in my team every single time.

Pope shouldnít be burdened with the gloves ever again. Poor selection not to have a backup keeper on the tour, and itís probably good that he dropped the Williamson dolly, as if he hadnít, the selectors might have felt that they had gotten away with it.

Denlyís drop was comical, but heís an excellent fielder. I donít think it was the worst drop ever, but possibly the 2nd worst. Michael Vaughan still has that trophy.

Things need to improve quickly for England, or the tour to SA could be quite a painful one.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Manormanic on December 03, 2019, 08:02:53 AM
Denlyís drop was comical, but heís an excellent fielder. I donít think it was the worst drop ever, but possibly the 2nd worst. Michael Vaughan still has that trophy.

Oh how wrong you are.

I take your Denly, your Vaughan, and raise you one Mike Gatting. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWtCUKwaTgU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWtCUKwaTgU)
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: alexhilly1492 on December 03, 2019, 09:24:54 AM
so what have we learnt from this tour?

root can still bat
stokes is our best player
we have solved one opening position
Denly is our best option at 3

we knew most of this already

What is still to solve?

one opener - i do think sibley is the man
bowling attack - always pick the spinner, broad if in form always plays, rotate the others
how to take wickets on flat tracks - long time issue, dont see a solution unless root starts using archer better
how to bowl with a kookaburra - use the kookaburra here in the CC (autrailia use the dukes in sheffield shield in the year before ashes series here for some games)
selections - consistent and more in line with first test, give people time, pick on form
long term 3 - could be crawley not sen enough to make that call (thought he opened though) depending on his knee, stokes could be our next great 3 dont @ me
who keeps wicket - foakes, end of, yes hes not had the best year but scored 100 on test debut played very well in Sri Lanka and is by miles the best gloveman - his odi debut innings over in malahide was top class too - really saved us in a game we we losing and not a typical one day knock more test style
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on December 03, 2019, 11:14:51 AM
Why on earth would an England team have Zak Crawley batting at no. 6 and Ollie Pope keeping wicket?
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: alexhilly1492 on December 03, 2019, 11:18:06 AM
Why on earth would an England team have Zak Crawley batting at no. 6 and Ollie Pope keeping wicket?

Because we were daft and didn't take a spare keeper?
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on December 03, 2019, 11:25:16 AM
Why on earth would an England team have Zak Crawley batting at no. 6 and Ollie Pope keeping wicket?

Coz Ed Smith is a genius.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Bats_Entertainment on December 03, 2019, 11:28:57 AM
I don't normally do "why, oh why?' selection posts, so it must be bad. ;)
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: edge on December 03, 2019, 12:19:07 PM
The most contentious point for me is not that we chose an inexperienced player as backup keeper... it's what on earth is Jos Buttler doing putting his back out in the gym the day before a test match!
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: six and out on December 03, 2019, 12:31:29 PM
For me it poses a bigger overall question and that is actually how seriously were we taking this trip to NZ when it has been widely broadcast that it wasn't in the Test Championship - if it was in the TC would we have kept Bairstow in NZ? or did they just think well it doesn't really matter what happens on the off chance we need a keeper etc..., it is more beneficial for Bairstow to go to SA early and work on his batting with Trott, rather than sit there and carry the drinks.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Manormanic on December 03, 2019, 12:42:07 PM
it is more beneficial for Bairstow to go to SA early and work on his batting with Trott, rather than sit there and carry the drinks.

whichever way you look at it, not having a proper reserve keeper was a massive gaffe. 
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: billyb on December 03, 2019, 03:58:17 PM
So if we rated the team from their performances this series, what would it look like?

Burns: I don't think you could ask for more from the opener. Often ungainly and streaky, but he is scoring runs at the top (hallelujah)! 184 runs in 2 tests, AVG 61.3. 9/10

Sibley: A disappointing start to his England career, but showed he has potential, especially in his first innings of the series. There is time now to work on a couple of things before South Africa. 4/10.

Denly: A little underwhelming at times but still our best option at 3. Occupies the crease for long periods when he gets in. Horrible drop. 6/10

Root: Rescued himself from a desperately poor series as captain with a mighty 226 in the 2nd test. Continues to mismanage Archer in particular. People need to separate Root the Captain from Root the batsman... Fantastic to have him back in form. 7/10

Stokes: Another good series, averaging 48.3 and bowling pretty well at times despite looking sore. 7.5/10

Crawley: Faced 6 balls. Can't rate him on that- will he get another dig in SA? N/A

Pope: Showed what he can do with the bat at last, and should have had a 100 but was unselfish for the team. Looks class. Hope he learns a lot from this series! Why on earth did he keep though? 7/10

Curran: Still don't know what to make of him. England's top wicket taker, but still seems unconvincing and I don't know why. Is he too slow? Not consistent enough? Either way, a solid series really. 7.5/10

Woakes: One test, 4 wickets. Probably England's best seamer behind Broad but clearly isn't flavour of the month. 7.5/10

Archer: Bowled a whopping 82 overs, more than any other England bowler. His magic just wasn't there this series, was it? Looked flat and exhausted at times, bowling well below pace. A learning experience for the young man. Not sure you should be using your thoroughbred to do a shire horse's work. 5/10

Broad: Very economical, didn't take enough wickets but is an important presence on the field. He really can't bat any more though, can he? Anderson might actually be better... 6.5/10

Buttler: 1 test, 43 runs... Better behind the sticks than Pope at least. Still not sure he is the team's long term future. 6.5/10

Leach: 2 wickets and gastroenteritis. We'll need him badly in SA. Not quite Graeme Swann but probably the best we have, and seems well liked in the team. 6/10

Selectors/Management: 3/10. Managed to write 11 names down on a piece of paper, which is to be applauded. Maybe next series we will let them advance to using crayons. Not quite ready for felt tips.

Ultimately- not enough runs, not enough wickets. Poor pitches perhaps but New Zealand a much better side right now. They found a way of taking wickets & provided an education in test cricket. Good luck to them.

Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SD on December 03, 2019, 05:06:53 PM
Probably a little on the generous side i think.  A very odd decision to travel half way around the world for a 2 test series so so after the end of a draining English season.  I don't think that there is much positive to build on. 

Not great cricket either unfortunately.  A Kookaburra ball on a flat wickets offering nothing to the bowler but making batting attentional doesn't make great watching
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: shadowlight on December 03, 2019, 05:23:58 PM
I rather use lack of experience as an excuse for the performance, instead of the pitch and ball.  NZ played on the same pitch and used the same balls and they did a better job.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SD on December 03, 2019, 05:36:04 PM
I rather use lack of experience as an excuse for the performance, instead of the pitch and ball.  NZ played on the same pitch and used the same balls and they did a better job.

My view was about the quality of the cricket, not the outcome. 
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Manormanic on December 03, 2019, 05:42:42 PM
Definitely generous. Pope played two horrendous shots in the first test!
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SD on December 03, 2019, 06:04:22 PM
Definitely generous. Pope played two horrendous shots in the first test!

I didn't think his innings in the second test was great either.  He played 7 false shots in his first 51 balls.  He made the most of some very good fortune and showed the ability he has, but also that there is a very long way to go for him
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: billyb on December 03, 2019, 06:13:34 PM
I gave Pope a good score because he was the only new player to do anything of note really, and I'm desperate to see someone do well  :D :( Sibley/Crawley/Pope.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on December 03, 2019, 06:43:15 PM
Iíd say your ratings are pretty accurate. Asking Archer to bowl 82 overs is a joke, and will lead to him declaring that heís only interested in playing ODIs and the 20 over stuff.

The one rating I disagree with is the selectors/management rating, which is 3 too high. Ed Smith had a shocker, and hopefully this debacle of a series makes people realise that heís not up to the job.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: fros23 on December 03, 2019, 07:48:34 PM
Iíd say your ratings are pretty accurate. Asking Archer to bowl 82 overs is a joke, and will lead to him declaring that heís only interested in playing ODIs and the 20 over stuff.

The one rating I disagree with is the selectors/management rating, which is 3 too high. Ed Smith had a shocker, and hopefully this debacle of a series makes people realise that heís not up to the job.

Ed Smith seems to be getting a slating from all angles on here at the moment.  Can you please explain what he got so horrendously wrong for this series?
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: alexhilly1492 on December 03, 2019, 07:52:18 PM
The only thing he got wrong was not sending a back up keeper

We were praising him before the series for picking youth now it didn't go to plan that was crap
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on December 03, 2019, 07:55:31 PM
The only thing he got wrong was not sending a back up keeper

We were praising him before the series for picking youth now it didn't go to plan that was crap

Has anyone said picking the youngsters was crap?

Not taking a back up keeper was a risk that backfired spectacularly, and Smith is rightly getting slated for that. I've not seen any criticism about selection of the younger players though...
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: ppccopener on December 03, 2019, 08:00:31 PM
All in all pretty accurate reading of the series, nothing should be taken from NZ, well led, a good team who are 3 in the rankings for a reason. I donít like flat wickets and balls with no seam movement either but letís not moan and complain- NZ won and deserved to in the same conditions they found a way to get us out.

Trying to think of what is the fans learnt from the two matches.

I donít think much...burns played well, Pope is a talent, woakes and broad and Curran ok.Root the batsmen got a big score-good.

Selection is a mystery, clearly moeen and bairstow are wanted back, SA the keeper will be stood back that means again no specialist.

England are a frustrating side, we pick youngsters but then it goes wrong.

Agree with others we need good management and selection, but do we have it? I have my doubts.

For my money a proper keeper needs to play...I think if we did play Foakes the side could start to fit into place.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SD on December 03, 2019, 08:11:29 PM
Ed Smith seems to be getting a slating from all angles on here at the moment.  Can you please explain what he got so horrendously wrong for this series?

I didn't see much wrong with the selection.  The lack of a back up keeper was a calculated gamble that Foakes or Baistow would be better off at home resting than carrying the drinks with Crawley as the back up batsman who would benefit from the experience of being around the squad. 
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: six and out on December 03, 2019, 08:31:27 PM
I didn't see anything wrong with the squad at all, I mean did anyone jump and shout that we weren't taking an experienced back up keeper when the squad was announced? It was just a bit of a gamble that spectacularly backfired.

I have much more of an issue that we didn't play a spinner in a test match we needed to win on a flat motorway of a pitch.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: cricketbadger on December 03, 2019, 10:00:34 PM
I think that's a fairly good round up of all the ratings.

On a personal note, felt the serious was pretty dull and despite loving the game found myself switching over a fair bit due to lack of action. Flat pitched and kook ball obviously played a part, and seeing Archer at 75% wasnt great

Lack of a back up keeper is absolutely school boy, and highlighted even more by Buttler injury and Pope's keeping.

Cant knock the rest of the selections, although im starting to think Curran doesnt have much left, doesnt have the pace either if theres  o swing, saying that all the bowlers speeds were down and disappointing.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: jonny77 on December 04, 2019, 07:42:28 AM
Personally I didn't think it really mattered not having a back up keeper this tour. It was two tests, which were effectively friendlies. Taking Foakes to carry the drinks would have been a waste and if he'd have played in the final test, would we have learnt anything new? I'd have much rather taken some younger players to give them experience, like Pope and Crawley.

If it was the Ashes or a meaningful series then fair enough, but with the gap that great between county and test level, these are great opportunities to test a few new players imo.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on December 04, 2019, 09:40:13 AM
Every test should be meaningful, and every squad should be the strongest available, and there should be sufficient cover in all areas.

If England start classing these types of tests as not meaningful, then the death of test cricket will be accelerated. England is pretty much the only country where the test side is supported as much as the ODI sides, and itís important that this continues.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: jonny77 on December 04, 2019, 09:45:54 AM
I agree, but there are series which surely are more important than others? The Ashes for example or a 5 test series against India etc. This was essentially a warm up for the SA series, so a good chance to look at the likes of Pope. I'm sure England were taking it seriously, but not having a specialist back up keeper didn't really affect the result. Just an opinion.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on December 04, 2019, 09:58:22 AM
Yes, England vs Aus or India is the most important (particularly at home), but the other series shouldnít be disregarded. Iím not sure NZ or anyone else would appreciate their series being classed as a warmup for another series. I think you still need to take these series seriously, regardless of who it is against, or whether it counts towards the world test championship. I am all for trying out new players, but there needs to be justification for doing so, and a core of established players in every match, treating it for what it exactly is... a test match.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: mo_town on December 04, 2019, 10:13:01 AM
I agree, but there are series which surely are more important than others? The Ashes for example or a 5 test series against India etc. This was essentially a warm up for the SA series, so a good chance to look at the likes of Pope. I'm sure England were taking it seriously, but not having a specialist back up keeper didn't really affect the result. Just an opinion.

Are you seriously ranking NZ as a poor Test team? They have had an excellent record of late winning matches. Not sure this is the right attitude. If anything, SA are in a process of rebuilding and Eng should have it easy.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: jonny77 on December 04, 2019, 10:50:17 AM
 I've never once said they are a poor team, or that we shouldn't take it seriously. I'd rate them better than, or on par with England at present. My point was in the grand scheme of things the result here wasn't crucial to anything really. How many times do you hear that CC games don't prepare players for the test arena, or that 'its a huge step up'. So why not try new players and rest others, in a two game series against quality opposition but which essentially has less riding on it (not part of the test championshop etc). Makes sense to me and as I say the lack of back up keeper for me didn't really impact massively at all. We all know what Foakes can do.

I've also clearly stated that these should be taken seriously, but you also need some games against quality opposition to try new players without fearing a loss too greatly.

Again, just an opinion  :D
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: NT50 on December 04, 2019, 11:34:03 AM
I've never once said they are a poor team, or that we shouldn't take it seriously. I'd rate them better than, or on par with England at present. My point was in the grand scheme of things the result here wasn't crucial to anything really. How many times do you hear that CC games don't prepare players for the test arena, or that 'its a huge step up'. So why not try new players and rest others, in a two game series against quality opposition but which essentially has less riding on it (not part of the test championshop etc). Makes sense to me and as I say the lack of back up keeper for me didn't really impact massively at all. We all know what Foakes can do.

I've also clearly stated that these should be taken seriously, but you also need some games against quality opposition to try new players without fearing a loss too greatly.

Again, just an opinion  :D

They have 6 blokes that average 40+ and a world class seam bowling attack. I think it's pretty safe to say they're a much better team than us...
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: JTtaylor145 on December 04, 2019, 11:45:18 AM
Playing at home is such a massive advantage in test cricket. Very few sides win away from home. Australia and India are the best sides in test cricket by a distance. It would be more interesting if you had Australia vs England...in India. Of course no one would watch in person but it would be more interesting on TV.

Can't help but worry about the next Ashes series in Australia. Hate to think it but I can see England losing 4 or 5 test matches.

Still I guess we will follow the same pattern of win most matches at home and lose most matches away. Makes test cricket a bit boring, doesn't it?

Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: jonny77 on December 04, 2019, 12:30:10 PM
They have 6 blokes that average 40+ and a world class seam bowling attack. I think it's pretty safe to say they're a much better team than us...

I agree, they're probably better (i did say this below). But 'much better'? I'm not so sure. Man for man it would be interesting to see who everyone would select. I wouldn't take Southee over Broad or Anderson, Boult over the Archer at the minute, but of the Archer from the Ashes? Henry or Mitchell over Stokes? Wagner over Woakes/Wood/Curran is obvious, then Ravel over Burns? Watling would make it over Butler, but Buttler isn't playing to his full potential. Williamson and Taylor obviously. The bowlers have all toiled to some degree this tour due to the pitches and England's fielding/catching has cost them also.

Yes they've got some class players in the top order with higher averages, but they are more established players than most of ours. Root is still in my opinion a class batsmen, as is Stokes, but we're admittedly behind them in that department. Doesn't scream much better to me tho,  but if we're just going on averages and stats, there's no debate to be had I suppose.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: six and out on December 04, 2019, 12:46:50 PM
the simple fact is, as soon as the ICC announced that the NZ series wasn't going to be part of the Test Championship it changed the whole nature of the series. Does it make it any less important? Depends how you look at it and who you ask, it was bloody important to Dom Sibley and Oli Pope! Did it mean they were trying any less? They are professional sportsman, so i would hope not!

What i would say is that the 2nd test pitch was an awful test wicket and we are trying to encourage people to watch test cricket (whether it's in the Test Championship or not) and that sort of wicket will do absolutely nothing for the game.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: jonny77 on December 04, 2019, 01:06:34 PM
I agree mate, not a great pitch really. As I've said I've no doubt everyone was taking it seriously, but my point was the result was not the all important thing. Much as in football friendlies, it gives the chance to try new things and players.

Obviously winning is important, but so is blooding new players so when the 'big' series come around we have more established players with experience of test . If the likes of Pope are the future it will have done him the world of good being there. I'd also have liked other newbies to be given a chance too tbh.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Manormanic on December 04, 2019, 02:14:34 PM
I agree, they're probably better (i did say this below). But 'much better'? I'm not so sure. Man for man it would be interesting to see who everyone would select. I wouldn't take Southee over Broad or Anderson, Boult over the Archer at the minute, but of the Archer from the Ashes? Henry or Mitchell over Stokes? Wagner over Woakes/Wood/Curran is obvious, then Ravel over Burns? Watling would make it over Butler, but Buttler isn't playing to his full potential. Williamson and Taylor obviously. The bowlers have all toiled to some degree this tour due to the pitches and England's fielding/catching has cost them also.

Yes they've got some class players in the top order with higher averages, but they are more established players than most of ours. Root is still in my opinion a class batsmen, as is Stokes, but we're admittedly behind them in that department. Doesn't scream much better to me tho,  but if we're just going on averages and stats, there's no debate to be had I suppose.

Tricky one, isn't it.  I reckon, if both teams have everyone available and at their peak, I'd go:

Burns
Latham
Williamson
Root
Nicholls
Stokes
Watling
Santner
Archer
Boult
Anderson

I reckon 9 of those 11 would be fairly universal, with Santner and Nicholls the slight tricky picks.  So a 6/5 split in my side. 
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: jonny77 on December 04, 2019, 02:40:55 PM
I wouldn't be far off mate. Is like to get Wagner in there, but at full tilt Archer was great in the Ashes. Maybe Taylor for Nichllls too for me.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: csnew on December 04, 2019, 09:47:45 PM
Absolute crap - some suggesting since series was not part of the ICC test championship the players had no interest. Just another excuse for losing.
The test championship has just started, Iíd say not many care about that right now.

NZ have a fantastic record at home as do aus and India. However the number of matches England lose at home is far too high.

Time the English bowlers stopped moaning about the kookaburra ball and get on with it, other teams have no issues with it. Letís not forget they played with the dukes ball in the West Indies and also lost.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on December 04, 2019, 09:51:00 PM
New Zealand are a great team, whilst England are great individuals. A great team beats great individuals 99/100. Thatís the crux of the matter.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: ppccopener on December 04, 2019, 10:13:20 PM
New Zealand are a great team, whilst England are great individuals. A great team beats great individuals 99/100. Thatís the crux of the matter.

Ummm. No and no. NZ are a good team, well led,good players.Williamson up there as one of the best 3 players in World cricket for sure.

Anderson has not played this series, he is a modern great. Just who were you thinking of to make up the 'great individuals' ?

Stokes is up there, Root our best batsmen by a street, is he a great? No.

This is the problem we have as fans and supporters to quote a well known forum phrase 'delusional'

We might have two great players if Anderson plays, without him the term 'great' is massively out of context.

I expected better from you @Mister Le Chiffre , you normally talk sense.

Unless we start getting a bit real, the team will always disappoint. We have potential but recent history, current history shows us for what we are....average to good.
 :)
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: Mister Le Chiffre on December 04, 2019, 10:41:57 PM
I probably didnít explain myself properly. Englandís players are capable of great individual feats such as Stokes at Leeds and Archer also in the Ashes. Clearly you probably wouldnít call them greats of the game. But my point was misconstrued.

I still maintain New Zealand are a great side. Little bit like Leicester City imo.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SouthpawMark on December 04, 2019, 10:49:12 PM
I probably didnít explain myself properly. Englandís players are capable of great individual feats such as Stokes at Leeds and Archer also in the Ashes. Clearly you probably wouldnít call them greats of the game. But my point was misconstrued.

I still maintain New Zealand are a great side. Little bit like Leicester City imo.

Iíd give England at least a 51% chance of beating Leicester City at cricket.  :D
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on December 05, 2019, 12:55:19 PM
I agree, but there are series which surely are more important than others? The Ashes for example or a 5 test series against India etc. This was essentially a warm up for the SA series, so a good chance to look at the likes of Pope. I'm sure England were taking it seriously, but not having a specialist back up keeper didn't really affect the result. Just an opinion.

Warm up vs a decent Nz side for a Ďbig seriesí against a dire and poor SA team ?!?! Oh my
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on December 05, 2019, 12:57:04 PM
I've never once said they are a poor team, or that we shouldn't take it seriously. I'd rate them better than, or on par with England at present. My point was in the grand scheme of things the result here wasn't crucial to anything really. How many times do you hear that CC games don't prepare players for the test arena, or that 'its a huge step up'. So why not try new players and rest others, in a two game series against quality opposition but which essentially has less riding on it (not part of the test championshop etc). Makes sense to me and as I say the lack of back up keeper for me didn't really impact massively at all. We all know what Foakes can do.

I've also clearly stated that these should be taken seriously, but you also need some games against quality opposition to try new players without fearing a loss too greatly.

Again, just an opinion  :D

Umm shall we compare the avgís of the batsmen and see which side is Ďon parí...

God we do over rate our players.. they avg 30ís for a bloody reason guys.. they arenít very good!! No matter how many times the media or ECB call them Ďworld classí
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: jonny77 on December 05, 2019, 04:12:06 PM
Warm up vs a decent Nz side for a Ďbig seriesí against a dire and poor SA team ?!?! Oh my

2 test series aren't that big in my opinion mate, that was all I was getting at. Also not part of the Test Championship.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: jonny77 on December 05, 2019, 04:15:35 PM
Umm shall we compare the avgís of the batsmen and see which side is Ďon parí...

God we do over rate our players.. they avg 30ís for a bloody reason guys.. they arenít very good!! No matter how many times the media or ECB call them Ďworld classí

I did say I'd rate them better, or on par. Averages aren't everything either tbf, I still think we've got some class players but are in transition with a lot of new players.

Guess I'm just a glass half full kind of person, tends to keep me more positive and happier  :D
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on December 06, 2019, 12:34:35 PM
I did say I'd rate them better, or on par. Averages aren't everything either tbf, I still think we've got some class players but are in transition with a lot of new players.

Guess I'm just a glass half full kind of person, tends to keep me more positive and happier  :D

England have payers capable of a class performance.. they arenít Ďclassí as they canít back it up regularly. Quite a few of the established players have played enough to have lost ďpotentialĒ and now just be at their level

Itís not about being positive or not, itís about being realistic and not pretending these guys are something they arenít
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: SurreySam on December 06, 2019, 06:49:50 PM
Warm up vs a decent Nz side for a Ďbig seriesí against a dire and poor SA team ?!?! Oh my

I think we were the warm up for New Zealand, before they head over to Oz.
Title: Re: England tour of New Zealand 2019/20
Post by: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on December 06, 2019, 07:36:29 PM
I think we were the warm up for New Zealand, before they head over to Oz.

Sounds more like it