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General Cricket => World Cricket => Topic started by: six and out on April 17, 2020, 07:54:40 AM

Title: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: six and out on April 17, 2020, 07:54:40 AM
This question was posed on the social accounts of The Cricketer, and is an interesting one.

Who would make your all time Test XI.... but you can't pick 2 players from the same country.

My team is below -

Cook - ENG
Fleming (c) - NZ
Bradman - AUS
Tendulkar - IND
Richards - WI
A. Flower (wk) - ZIM
Shakib - BAN
Akram - PAK
R. Khan - AFG
Steyn - SA
Murali - SL
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: Jimbo on April 17, 2020, 08:22:28 AM
Slightly fudging my batting order for this. This would be some middle order.

Lara - WI
Fleming (C) - NZ
Kallis - SA
Tendulkar - India
Sangakarra (WK) - SL
Botham - Eng
Shakib - Ban
Heath Streak - Zim
Wasim Akram - Pak
Rashid Khan - Afg
McGrath - Aus
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: jp2408 on April 17, 2020, 08:38:49 AM
Tricky. I looked at it as follows:

Need a player from each of ZIM/BAN/AFG to make up 11 - I think that has to be Flower/Shakib/Rashid as they're the only truly world class players from those nations. That means two spinner slots and a middle order keeper batsman are locked in.

Then you've got to have Bradman - can't ignore a guy averaging 100. So that's number 3 locked.

That leaves you IND/WI/ENG/NZ/PAK/SL/SA to make up (ideally) two openers, three fast bowlers, a seam bowling all rounder and a middle order batsman. Seam bowling all rounder and openers are the hardest positions to fill there IMO, so I'm going to pick the best players in those categories first and go from there. Best openers from those countries statistically are Gavaskar and Cook so they're in - also like the combination of skill in all conditions. Seam bowling all rounder (given ENG are out) then has to be Kallis. That leaves three fast bowlers to pick from PAK/WI/NZ/SL - SL not famous for their fast bowlers, so I'll pick the best from each of PAK/WI and NZ - in my eyes Akram, Marshall and Hadlee. This leaves a middle order batsman from SL, which has to be Sangakkara.

My team is therefore:

1. Gavaskar (IND)
2. Cook (ENG)
3. Bradman (AUS)
4. Sangakkara (SL)
5. Kallis (SA)
6. Flower (WK) (ZIM)
7. Shakib (BAN)
8. Hadlee (NZ)
9. Rashid Khan (AFG)
10. Akram (PAK)
11. Marshall (WI)

Pretty happy with that - specialist openers, bats to 11, two good spinners, a frightening opening combo in Akram and Marshall (left and right arm), very handy seam support from Hadlee (and Kallis).

For a series on the subcontinent with proper turning pitches I'd swap Sangakkara for Murali and Hadlee for Williamson - so the side would be:

1. Gavaskar
2. Cook
3. Bradman
4. Kallis
5. Williamson
6. Flower (WK)
7. Shakib
8. Rashid
9. Akram
10. Marshall
11. Muralitharan
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: A-Swing-And-A-Miss on April 17, 2020, 09:03:49 AM
Cook - ENG
Gavaskar - IND
Bradman- AUS
Sangakkara - SL
Kallis - SA
Sobers - WI
A Flower (wk) - ZIM
Shakib - BAN
Hadlee - NZ
Akram - PAK
R Khan - AFG

Went along the same thought pattern is jp but with so many world class all-rounders available, I had to go with both Sobers and Kallis to provide incredible balance to the team. Two blokes who average over 50 with the bat and between them took over 500 test match wickets at an average of just over 33, excellent rotation bowlers for Hadlee and Akram until the two spinners come into the game.
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: Warneymonster on April 17, 2020, 09:13:10 AM
Cook - ENG
Tendulkar - IND
Ponting - AUS
Kallis -  SA
Lara - WI
Sangakarra (wk) - SL
Shakib - BAN
Akram - PAK
R. Khan - AFG
Streak - Zim
Hadlee - NZ
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on April 17, 2020, 09:14:54 AM
I have taken full advantage of that Test Match in 2005 between Australia and the ICC World XI to put this team together!

A. Cook (ENG)
D. Bradman (AUS) 
J. Kallis (World XI)
B. Lara (WIN)
B. Taylor (ZIM)
S. Al Hassan (BAN)
MS Dhoni+ (IND)   
D. Steyn (SA)
W. Akram (PAK)
M. Muralitharan (SL)
S. Bond (NZ)

If I'm not allowed Kallis at 3, I'll have Kevin O'Brien (Ireland) instead. 
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: Buzz on April 17, 2020, 09:21:13 AM
Cook doesn't even make my second best Eng team, I am not sure how he is in nearly every line up so far.

Sehwag (I know I should pick Tendulkar, but yawn to that)
Hobbs
Bradman
Crowe
De Silva (tempted to have Ranatunga as make him skipper... Humm)
Sobers
Flower (Wk)
Shakib
Akram
Khan
Steyn.
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: SOULMAN1012 on April 17, 2020, 09:27:02 AM
Cook - ENG
Ponting -Aus
Tendulker - IND
A flower - Zim
Lara - WI
Mustifa Raheem (think thatís his name)(wk) - BA
Kallis -SA
Akram - PAK
Muralitharan - SL
Vatorie -NZ
Jones - ENG
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: Buzz on April 17, 2020, 09:31:01 AM
Two Aussie players and no Bradman Chris

Now two Eng players @SOULMAN1012 😂
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on April 17, 2020, 09:31:11 AM
Buzz, so one of the (arguably) best openers of all time doesn't make your England XI?!
Who makes your 2 teams ahead of him as opener?
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: Buzz on April 17, 2020, 09:32:33 AM
Buzz, so one of the (arguably) best openers of all time doesn't make your England XI?!
Who makes your 2 teams ahead of him as opener?

Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Edridge, Gooch, Strauss, Boycott, Atherton, Trescothic to name a few
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: jp2408 on April 17, 2020, 09:33:57 AM
Cook doesn't even make my second best Eng team, I am not sure how he is in nearly every line up so far.

Sehwag (I know I should pick Tendulkar, but yawn to that)
Hobbs
Bradman
Crowe
De Silva (tempted to have Ranatunga as make him skipper... Humm)
Sobers
Flower (Wk)
Shakib
Akram
Khan
Steyn.

Leading run scorer for a test match opener, 30+ hundreds and success in all conditions including away in Oz/SA and on the subcontinent is pretty compelling I thought! Plus with these teams you need to make sure you have openers that can protect the star studded middle orders from the new ball..
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: Buzz on April 17, 2020, 09:40:02 AM
Jack Hobbs. 199 first class tons on uncovered pitches.
Averaged 56.94 in test cricket.
61,237 first class runs, and would have scored more if it wasn't for the first World War.
Plus with crap bats and no proper protection (and an abhorrence for thigh pads 😮)

There was cricket before sky tv/before the 80s...
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: jp2408 on April 17, 2020, 09:43:14 AM
Jack Hobbs. 199 first class tons on uncovered pitches.
Averaged 56.94 in test cricket.
61,237 first class runs, and would have scored more if it wasn't for the first World War.
Plus with crap bats and no proper protection.

There was cricket before sky tv/before the 80s...

Fair point - suppose he could come into the side without damaging it too much  :D
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: WalkingWicket37 on April 17, 2020, 10:18:57 AM
Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Edridge, Gooch, Strauss, Boycott, Atherton, Trescothic to name a few

Hobbs - fair enough, he could bat a bit... 
Not sure Peter Sutcliffe makes it just because he's a Yorkshire man!
Edridge - was he any better than Cook?
Gooch - great player again, but was he as good as Cook?
Strauss - a good player who did a lot for England, but not as prolific a run scorer as Cook.
Boycott - A strong case, fair enough.
Atherton - possibly a victim of the era he played in, but his record was nowhere near as good as Cook's.
Trescothick - A very good player but had a slightly worse record than Cook over a shorter timeframe.
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: ppccopener on April 17, 2020, 10:33:13 AM
Peter Sutcliffe was the Yorkshire ripper, if Buzz has him in ahead of Cook the whole world has gone mad
 :)
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: SOULMAN1012 on April 17, 2020, 11:02:26 AM
Two Aussie players and no Bradman Chris

Amended
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: A-Swing-And-A-Miss on April 17, 2020, 01:20:05 PM
Amended

With Cook and Jones you've still got two Englishmen..
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: jamielsn15 on April 17, 2020, 02:09:49 PM
1. Hobbs, Eng
2. Greenidge, WI
3. Bradman, Aus
4. Tendulkar, Ind
5. Sangakkara, SL
6. Flower, Zim (wk)
7. Shakib Al Hasan, Bang
8. Hadlee, NZ
9. Rashid Khan, Afg
10. Wasim Akram, Pak
11. Donald, SA
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: brokenbat on April 17, 2020, 03:43:59 PM
Tough one, as the most "obvious" combinations are very batsman heavy. But you need 20 wickets to win Test matches and that is what I decided to prioritize.

So instead of focusing on the batting, I have tried to go the other way - figure out the best possible bowling attack first, for ALL possible conditions, and only then fill in the batsmen.

I started from the bottom of the lineup and worked my way up.

This led to leaving out Bradman (need Warne), and leaving out Lara/Sobers (Malcolm Marshall is probably the best fast bowler in history - https://www.espncricinfo.com/westindies/content/player/52419.html#profile (https://www.espncricinfo.com/westindies/content/player/52419.html#profile)).

I initially chose Kallis from SA, but then went with Steyn to make the fast bowling attack truly formidable. This left the batting far too weak, so had to then drop Murali for Sanga.

Most teams have Rashid Khan from Afg, and I initially did too...but with Warne in the team, and with Shakib in as well, I decided to go for a batsman. Searching for the best Test averages (obviously not enough data to go on) led to Ibrahim Zadran, who happens to be an opening batsman - which allows Sachin and Sanga to go down a bit closer to spots they are more used to.

The end result is an OK-ish batting lineup, but look at this bowling attack! Gonna be some low scoring thrillers with this team! 
 
1. Jack Hobbs, Eng
2. Ibrahim Zadran, Afg 
3. Sachin Tendulkar, Ind
4. Kumar Sangakkara, SL
5. Martin Crowe, NZ (c)
6. Andy Flower, Zim (wk)
7. Shakib Al Hasan, BD
8. Wasim Akram, Pak
9. Malcolm Marshall, WI
10. Dale Steyn, SA
11. Shane Warne, Aus
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: Buzz on April 17, 2020, 05:38:07 PM
I am still hoping someone will pick Tim Murtagh
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: LBWCandidate on April 17, 2020, 05:46:28 PM
1    Gavaskar
2    Hobbs
3    B. Richards
4    V. Richards
5    De Silva
6    Shakib
7    A. Flower
8    Akram
9    R. Khan
10    Hadlee
11    McGrath
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: FattusCattus on April 17, 2020, 05:46:50 PM
I wish I was a time-traveller, I really do. To be able to see some of these players live, in their pomp :0

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Bradman
Larwood
Barnes
Tayfield
Headley
Tyson
Trueman
Hammond
O'Reilly
Hall
Chandrasekher
Tate
Spofforth
WG

Oh my God - I could gorge myself on their doings!
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: Buzz on April 17, 2020, 06:14:26 PM
@LBWCandidate magnificent selection of Barry Richards. Your team is my favourite so far.
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: pablomarmite on April 17, 2020, 06:20:24 PM
I am still hoping someone will pick Tim Murtagh

OK I will. One of the greatest and most unbelievable days of life.

Cook
McCullum
Bradman
Tendulkar
Kallis
Sangakkara
A Flower
Shakib
Akram
Marshall
Murtagh
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: jp2408 on April 17, 2020, 06:41:07 PM
1    Gavaskar
2    Hobbs
3    B. Richards
4    V. Richards
5    De Silva
6    Shakib
7    A. Flower
8    Akram
9    R. Khan
10    Hadlee
11    McGrath

Some great flair in that batting lineup! I reckon my team would be a machine but it is lacking some excitement in the batting order.
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: Arambo on April 17, 2020, 07:16:29 PM
Cook (Eng)
Hayden (Aus)
Kallis (SA)
Tendulkar (Ind)
Inzy (Pak)
Shakib (Ban)
Flower (Zim)
Rashid (Afg)
Ambrose (WI)
Bond (NZ)
Murali (Sri)

Gone for an XI only out of players Ive seen play. 3 seamers 3 spinners and a pretty dominant batting line up
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: 19reading87 on April 17, 2020, 07:43:42 PM
Graeme Smith (c) - South Africa
Alistair Cook - England
Brian Lara - West Indies
Sachin Tendulkar - India
Andy Flower (WK) - Zimbabwe
Shakib Al Hasan - Bangladesh
Keith Miller - Australia
Wasim Akram - Pakistan
Tim Murtagh -  Ireland
Shane Bond - New Zealand
Muttiah Muralitharan - Sri Lanka
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: InternalTraining on April 17, 2020, 08:15:46 PM
1. Internal Training.
2-11. Bunch of other guys that I want to play with.
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: Mfarank on April 17, 2020, 10:17:58 PM
1. Cook - Eng
2. Tendulkar - Ind
3. Lara - Wi
4. Ponting - Aus
5. Sangakkara - Sl
6. Kallis - Sa
7. Shakib - Ban
8. Andy Flower - Zim
9. Akram - Pak
10. Nabi - Afg
11. Vettori - Nz
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: Manormanic on April 18, 2020, 03:38:57 PM
Need a player from each of ZIM/BAN/AFG to make up 11 - I think that has to be Flower/Shakib/Rashid as they're the only truly world class players from those nations. That means two spinner slots and a middle order keeper batsman are locked in.

I dont think they are quite the only options - I would argue that Tamim Iqbal could be considered from Bangladesh and that you're being a little unkind to Tim Murtagh and Ryan Ten Doeschate, who are both reasonable outside punts to replace Rashid who, lets face it, has done south of nothing in Test cricket.

For me, there are a couple of tricky decisions - firstly, who you take from Australia because, as good as Bradman is, you also have to consider Warne.  Second, who from the Windies - you could have the greatest quick of all time in Marshall, the greatest all rounder (Sobers) or one of the greatest batsmen - either Lara or Richards.  And the outcome of those decisions affects everything else.

So, my side at the moment is:

Hutton
Barry Richards
Bradman
Tendulkar
Sangakkara
Flower
Imran Khan
Shakib
Marshall
Hadlee
Rashid Khan
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: Jimbo on April 18, 2020, 03:49:20 PM
Ten Doeschate is a quality player but he's never played Test cricket!
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: Manormanic on April 19, 2020, 11:21:31 AM
Ten Doeschate is a quality player but he's never played Test cricket!

I don't think its mandatory to have done so?  He still represents a "different" nation for the original criteria!
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: Jimbo on April 19, 2020, 12:39:27 PM
True, but I don't think I'd pick someone in my all time Test XI if they've never played a Test match. Could argue that FC form over time shows what he could have done but Ramprakash is a one man counter argument!
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: Manormanic on April 19, 2020, 06:09:36 PM
True, but I don't think I'd pick someone in my all time Test XI if they've never played a Test match. Could argue that FC form over time shows what he could have done but Ramprakash is a one man counter argument!

I see your point, but realistically for that eleventh place you have sod all to go on - between Afghanistan, Ireland and the others you've seen a handful of tests, most of them crushing defeats.  So in reality you're going to have to go back to either ODI and T20 form or First Class cricket.  And I reckon Tendo has both covered pretty well.
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: Jimbo on April 19, 2020, 06:53:15 PM
Could be a bit cheeky and pick an Irish/Dutch qualified player who has played for someone else 😅
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: SOULMAN1012 on April 19, 2020, 07:13:42 PM
Apart from managing to cock my team up twice lol Iím surprised no one has KP as the England choice, plenty of quality number 4ís over the years but not a single person has him in despite many international players having him in there all time test sides or bowlers saying he was one player that they hated bowling too
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: Jimbo on April 19, 2020, 07:18:41 PM
Apart from managing to cock my team up twice lol Iím surprised no one has KP as the England choice, plenty of quality number 4ís over the years but not a single person has him in despite many international players having him in there all time test sides or bowlers saying he was one player that they hated bowling too

Lot of competition for the middle order, not sure he gets in ahead of Sangakarra, Lara, Ponting, Kallis, etc..
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: Manormanic on April 19, 2020, 07:43:44 PM
KP is a player I've always loved watching but if you are only allowed one England player, it's going to come from the great openers (Hutton, Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Boycott, Gooch), all rounders or one FS Trueman.
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: brokenbat on April 19, 2020, 08:02:30 PM

Forgot about Ireland. So revising the team to the following..

1. Jack Hobbs, Eng
2. Tamim Iqbal, BD 
3. Sachin Tendulkar, Ind
4. Kumar Sangakkara, SL
5. Martin Crowe, NZ (c)
6. Andy Flower, Zim (wk)
7. Tim Murtagh, Ire
8. Wasim Akram, Pak
9. Malcolm Marshall, WI
10. Dale Steyn, SA
11. Shane Warne, Aus

Don't think one can come up with a better bowling attack than this
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: sgcricket on April 20, 2020, 07:08:11 AM
Best players for each country
Eng - Hobbs
Ind - Gavaskar
Aus - Bradman
SA - G Pollock
WI - Sobers
Ban - Shakib
Zim - A Flower (WK)
NZ - Hadlee
Afg - Rashid
Pak - Younis
SL - Murali
12th man (Ire - Murtagh, can replace Rashid Khan if it is a seaming track)

Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: Jimbo on April 20, 2020, 07:33:53 AM
Gavaskar over Tendulkar, Dravid or Kohli?
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: Manormanic on April 20, 2020, 09:24:51 AM
Gavaskar over Tendulkar, Dravid or Kohli?

Moreover, Hobbs over Hutton?
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: sgcricket on April 20, 2020, 09:38:05 AM
Gavaskar at opener over Tendulkar. Considered putting Barry Richards as opener and Tendulkar at 4. But then Bradman had said G Pollock was the best left handed batsman.
Since I haven't seen either Hobbs or Hutton play, just went with Hobbs who has 199 first class centuries.
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: Jeff Navarro on April 20, 2020, 09:38:52 AM
Need a player from each of ZIM/BAN/AFG to make up 11 - I think that has to be Flower/Shakib/Rashid as they're the only truly world class players from those nations. That means two spinner slots and a middle order keeper batsman are locked in.

Donít want to sound rude but have you actually watched teams like Bangladesh, Zimbabwe or Afghanistan play? Bangladesh had a bunch of really good players prior to becoming a Test side.

As for Zimbabwe Andy Flower wasnít the Ďonly world class playerí they had. David Houghton, Heath Streak, Murray Goodwin, Tatenda Taibu, Raymond Price, Grant Flower, Brendan Taylor but to name a few.

Afghanistan equally had really good players on their journey to the upper echelons of the international game.

When you mention sides that are generally deemed weaker nations, statistics arenít the only determining factors.
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: sgcricket on April 20, 2020, 09:39:06 AM
Also just to be clear these are not the best players from each country but those who fit in the XI at each position.
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: sgcricket on April 20, 2020, 09:41:08 AM
Have watched and followed these teams from quite some time. For Afg the only other player who can be considered is M Nabi but he has not made best use of his talent. As for Bangladesh, there hasn't been a better player than Shakib.
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: Buzz on April 20, 2020, 01:32:26 PM
Moreover, Hobbs over Hutton?

More serious debate than Cook being in the team this.
Are you Surrey or Yorkshire 😂🤣
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: Manormanic on April 20, 2020, 02:48:48 PM
More serious debate than Cook being in the team this.
Are you Surrey or Yorkshire 😂🤣

And yourself?  :D

I just think in a debate between two great players, the fact that Hutton made over half his test runs batting one handed probably sways it...
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: Buzz on April 20, 2020, 03:23:51 PM
Hobbs did it with no thigh pad (he was also a mate of my Grandfather) so I am not sure I am a partial judge. 🤣
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: jwebber86 on April 22, 2020, 05:56:38 PM

Virender sehwag
Brendon mccullum
VŪv Richards
Jacques kallis
Kevin pietersen
Kumar sangakarra wk
Andy flower
Shakib Al hasan
Imran khan
Shane Warne
Mohamed nabi
Boyd rankin 12th man

this would certainly be an entertaining team to watch
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: Jimbo on April 22, 2020, 06:49:50 PM
Entertaining but a strong bias towards modern era players.
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: Manormanic on April 22, 2020, 09:09:09 PM
Virender sehwag
Brendon mccullum
VŪv Richards
Jacques kallis
Kevin pietersen
Kumar sangakarra wk
Andy flower
Shakib Al hasan
Imran khan
Shane Warne
Mohamed nabi
Boyd rankin 12th man

this would certainly be an entertaining team to watch

A seamer light, perhaps?
Title: Re: All time Test XI.... but....
Post by: brokenbat on April 22, 2020, 10:45:41 PM


1. Jack Hobbs / Len Hutton - no real difference (sorry @Buzz )
2. Gavaskar - his amazing record was from the pre helmet, uncovered pitch era
3. Bradman - tough to drop warne but impossible to ignore a 99 avg
4. Andy Flower (wk)
5. Imran Khan (c) - as captain, he averaged 50 with bat, and 19 with ball
6. Ryan ten Doeschate / Kevin O Brien
7. Shakib al Hasan
8. Sir Richard Hadlee - any hint of grass and the opp is done
9. Malcolm Marshall - best ever
10. Dale Steyn
11. Murali