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Author Topic: Should Amir be allowed to play?  (Read 11004 times)

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uknsaunders

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Re: Should Amir be allowed to play?
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2015, 03:19:02 PM »

Just seen a great quote on Twitter...

If Dhoni and the rest of them are allowed to play, why shouldn't Amir.

He has a point.

Have I missed something?
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Buzz

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ppccopener

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Re: Should Amir be allowed to play?
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2015, 03:42:32 PM »

that's 18 months old and far as I can recall despite various rumours he's not been charged.

If we were all convicted on rumours and newpaper articles those investigating would just bang everyone up

Amir and his 2 ex-mates were found guilty in court.
shoot first and ask questions later?
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brokenbat

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Re: Should Amir be allowed to play?
« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2015, 10:43:30 AM »

Well to be fair..the BCCI isn't exactly the bastion of honesty - Suresh Raina was also "involved" with a bookie and it was covered up. Moreover, all the tactics used to trap players ("honey traps" etc) are easily doable (no pun intended) in the IPL.

Yes, innocent til proven guilty...but where there's smoke there's fire - especially during the most exorbitant, opulent cricket event on the planet.
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ppccopener

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Re: Should Amir be allowed to play?
« Reply #34 on: November 24, 2015, 10:50:51 AM »

most ppl I know think the IPL is corrupt, I think so too, it's everywhere....
proving it is different, the Pakistani players got caught and have had to pay the price. were they the only ones? we all know not...

Don't know how many other are following the Chris Cairns trial......awaiting the outcome of that with interest as Lou Vincent(confirmed fixer) and Macullum have testified against Cairns.

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northernboy1987

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Re: Should Amir be allowed to play?
« Reply #35 on: November 24, 2015, 10:56:40 AM »

most ppl I know think the IPL is corrupt, I think so too, it's everywhere....
proving it is different, the Pakistani players got caught and have had to pay the price. were they the only ones? we all know not...

Don't know how many other are following the Chris Cairns trial......awaiting the outcome of that with interest as Lou Vincent(confirmed fixer) and Macullum have testified against Cairns.

I read Lou Vincent's account of what he claims happened expecting to feel angry and fired up that people could cheat in such a way and by the end of it I ended up just pitying him, he had become such a sad lonely man by the end. Buuuuttt then I thought about it some more over the rest of the day and came to the conclusion that the man (along with Cairns and probably many others) admits to having lied countless times in front of officials and cricket boards etc. so started to wonder if this "sad vulnerable man who just wanted to fit in" character was all just the act of a pathological liar desperately trying to save his own skin.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 10:58:19 AM by northernboy1987 »
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ppccopener

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Re: Should Amir be allowed to play?
« Reply #36 on: November 24, 2015, 11:20:35 AM »

Lou Vincent just fixed matches for money, pure and simple. He felt he should of earned more, didn't(NZ players don't earn massive amounts) and he was not a regular in all forms. So he took the money and fixed-he's just a cheat.

The only thing is his favour,if there is anything, is he has owned up and confessed. Asif and Butt relentlessly protested their innocence until lots of money was wasted on them in court appeals and then they finally admitted it.

Cairns is denying everything,always has, and is being done again thru the courts.One thing is for sure if he is found guilty he's finished and will be massively sued for committing perjury as well.

There's a lot on the line. Macullum and Fleming both have given evidence he's a fixer.

match fixing has proved incredibly difficult to prove for the courts,and life bans are hard to enforce due to 'restraint of trade' laws.
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qasim_aziz99

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Re: Should Amir be allowed to play?
« Reply #37 on: November 24, 2015, 11:23:04 AM »

Im sure I read somewhere warne and waugh accepted money from a bookmaker and all they got was a slap on the wrist
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northernboy1987

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Re: Should Amir be allowed to play?
« Reply #38 on: November 24, 2015, 11:26:15 AM »

Im sure I read somewhere warne and waugh accepted money from a bookmaker and all they got was a slap on the wrist

I think that was for "providing information" rather than match/spot fixing. Not 100% sure what information was provided though.
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northernboy1987

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Re: Should Amir be allowed to play?
« Reply #39 on: November 24, 2015, 11:30:23 AM »

Lou Vincent just fixed matches for money, pure and simple. He felt he should of earned more, didn't(NZ players don't earn massive amounts) and he was not a regular in all forms. So he took the money and fixed-he's just a cheat.

The only thing is his favour,if there is anything, is he has owned up and confessed. Asif and Butt relentlessly protested their innocence until lots of money was wasted on them in court appeals and then they finally admitted it.

Cairns is denying everything,always has, and is being done again thru the courts.One thing is for sure if he is found guilty he's finished and will be massively sued for committing perjury as well.

There's a lot on the line. Macullum and Fleming both have given evidence he's a fixer.

match fixing has proved incredibly difficult to prove for the courts,and life bans are hard to enforce due to 'restraint of trade' laws.

Vincent makes Cairns out to be some kind of Mafia enforcer for the big cheeses behind the scenes, effectively running the operation in the field. If this is true he will deservedly get the absolute book thrown at him. But again when these guys have made a serious amount of money from lying and deceiving who's to know who's telling the truth about the lies they've told in the past!!!
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sgcricket

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Re: Should Amir be allowed to play?
« Reply #40 on: November 24, 2015, 12:12:17 PM »

I think he should be allowed back. He has served the time.
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brokenbat

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Re: Should Amir be allowed to play?
« Reply #41 on: November 24, 2015, 01:05:31 PM »

Two things from the Cairns trial are very interesting:

1. How they trap players. It's not like players say "I hate my country, let's cheat!". They get worked on over months - women are used...hook up with a smoking hot woman at an ipl party, and then find out she is an escort...and then you get blackmailed into cheating. It's a proper planned assault...which is tough for players. I think punishment should be harsh, but I also pity them - a bit like the pity I have for drug addicts.

2. Chris Cairns supposedly said "everyone is doing it" and "you are working with me now". Seemingly innocuous statements at first, but rather scary, as it implies that teams have had rival fixers within them. Perhaps this is the real reason for disunity between players.
Reminds of a NOW sting vs Saleem Malik...where he claimed that in one ODI between Aus and Pak - BOTH teams were trying to lose!
I think Pandora's box has yet to be opened - the corruption is likely spread all the way up...from players, coaches, board officials, and even the ICC ACU...why wouldn't it be - it's standard operating procedure for any mafia operation
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uknsaunders

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Re: Should Amir be allowed to play?
« Reply #42 on: November 24, 2015, 07:58:33 PM »

Warne and Waugh gave weather conditions and pitch info. Nothing concerning the game or tactics or agreements to fix. Different era though:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_the_bookmaker_controversy
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ppccopener

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Re: Should Amir be allowed to play?
« Reply #43 on: November 24, 2015, 08:19:03 PM »

Two things from the Cairns trial are very interesting:

1. How they trap players. It's not like players say "I hate my country, let's cheat!". They get worked on over months - women are used...hook up with a smoking hot woman at an ipl party, and then find out she is an escort...and then you get blackmailed into cheating. It's a proper planned assault...which is tough for players. I think punishment should be harsh, but I also pity them - a bit like the pity I have for drug addicts.

2. Chris Cairns supposedly said "everyone is doing it" and "you are working with me now". Seemingly innocuous statements at first, but rather scary, as it implies that teams have had rival fixers within them. Perhaps this is the real reason for disunity between players.
Reminds of a NOW sting vs Saleem Malik...where he claimed that in one ODI between Aus and Pak - BOTH teams were trying to lose!
I think Pandora's box has yet to be opened - the corruption is likely spread all the way up...from players, coaches, board officials, and even the ICC ACU...why wouldn't it be - it's standard operating procedure for any mafia operation

Absolutley right..the jury has retired and now has till friday to deceide.If guilty or not,if it goes bad for Cairns its perjury and perverting the course of justice and by default he is guilty of match fixing-therefore being wide open to other charges.
I dont think myself anyone should underestimate the significance of this case.If 'everyone is doing it' and he gets a bad result he's going to try to cut a deal and land everyone else in the brown stuff right?
'Can of worms' does not being to describe it
My guess,as yours, there are a lot of players,officials and coaches currently very very nervous indeed...
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edge

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Re: Should Amir be allowed to play?
« Reply #44 on: November 24, 2015, 08:26:19 PM »

On the other hand - if you were trying to persuade a teammate to fix, 'everyone's doing it' is practically a clich for criminal persuasion.
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