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Author Topic: How does one stay motivated during a bad team run?  (Read 1367 times)

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SLA

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Re: How does one stay motivated during a bad team run?
« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2018, 01:46:29 PM »

Respectfully, I totally disagree with everything you've said.

In your example, if you try to get on top of the run rate in the first 5 overs, against the oppo's best bowling with the new ball, you'll invariably find yourself 30-2 after 5. Then you've got your number 4, typically one of your better strokemakers, in facing the swinging new ball. Whenever this happens it's quite typical to suddenly find yourself 60-5 - from amateur level to Test level we see this happen over and over again. You're not recovering from that very often.

Openers are there for a primary purpose of surviving the new ball. If they get to 30-0 off 10 they've done a good job, and they probably want to be aiming for 70-1 after 20. That's leaving you a chase of 6.5 an over which is eminently doable if you have wickets in hand.


Its fine you disagree. Our club used to think like that once upon a time, too. But times changes, tactics evolve. England used to think that setting 260 would be enough to win an ODI 9 times out of 10.

Here's a conundrum for you: You're the fielding captain. You're defending 200 off 40 overs. You can see two old duffers strapping their pads on. You figure out the opposition are going to send out two blockers to try and see off your opening bowlers, before the stroke-maker at number 4 comes in to accelerate against the change bowlers. What do you do?
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SLA

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Re: How does one stay motivated during a bad team run?
« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2018, 01:51:07 PM »

I think the days of both the opening pair just aiming to see the new ball off are gone by now aren't they? Speaking as an opener, there's no better time to be an agressive batsman than in the first few overs - the field is all in, the bowling tends to be fairly predictable, amateur bowlers tend to feel their way into a spell, and you've got a nice new hard ball pinging off your bat. Room for adjusting to conditions obviously, but if I've got 15no in the first ten overs I'd be pretty disappointed with myself if it's a decent track. Slow starts can put a lot of pressure on the middle order.


I remember being told "the openers job is to take the shine off the ball" in the early 90s, but I too thought those days gone by the mid 2000s as too many clubs were wise to it, but when I joined my current club, that was still the thinking. I persuaded them to try something different and combine one aggressive and one defensive opener, with the stroke-maker in at 3, and without any change of personnel our average score went up by 50% and we got promoted 2 years in a row.


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richthekeeper

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Re: How does one stay motivated during a bad team run?
« Reply #32 on: July 13, 2018, 01:58:51 PM »

Come on, I'm not talking about an old duffer blocking out 10 overs. I'm talking about reducing your risk in the first 10 overs, putting the bad ball away if it comes but not trying to force the game.

Of course I'd like to be 40-0 off 10, but I definitely don't want to be 40-3.  As an opener another part of your job is to assess the conditions - if it's an absolute road of course you want to play shots. I still wouldn't advocate putting a pinch hitter in to open, it's just giving away a wicket.

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richthekeeper

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Re: How does one stay motivated during a bad team run?
« Reply #33 on: July 13, 2018, 02:01:08 PM »

Also in fairness my team has players from 3-8 who can all be relied upon to score at a run a ball minimum, so perhaps we just have a better middle order than most.
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SLA

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Re: How does one stay motivated during a bad team run?
« Reply #34 on: July 13, 2018, 02:20:10 PM »

I'm talking about reducing your risk in the first 10 overs, putting the bad ball away if it comes but not trying to force the game.

Right, which is EXACTLY the attitude I want you to have as the fielding team captain. We used to experience this all the time, and it was basically the opposition giving us the game on a plate. Don't see it much anymore, its very much 20th century strategy.

We'll bowl our medium pacers at you to a ring field, no bad balls, nothing you can really hit unless you're prepared to force it or go over the top, then after 16 overs when you're on about 40 and horribly behind the rate, you've missed the chance to cash in against our weaker bowlers, and your numbers 3 and 4 are shouting obscenities at you from the pavilion, finally you lose a wicket,  we bring our real opening bowlers on, your middle order are forced to try and hit quick good length away swingers on the up from the off, with 3 slips waiting, and its goodnight sam.

Have you honestly never come across these tactics? Its gone from off-the-wall to standard thinking in the past 10 years.

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richthekeeper

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Re: How does one stay motivated during a bad team run?
« Reply #35 on: July 13, 2018, 02:23:35 PM »

Genuinely never encountered a team saving their best bowlers for the middle overs in all my (12 or so) years of playing league cricket.

You must have some very good medium pacers if there are no bad balls - in my league there's at least one every 2 overs.
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SLA

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Re: How does one stay motivated during a bad team run?
« Reply #36 on: July 13, 2018, 02:26:38 PM »

Mathematically speaking, the correct strategy is to identify the optimum risk level to win you the game, and then adjust your aggressiveness depending upon the quality of the bowling so that you reduce your aggressiveness against the stronger bowlers and increase your aggressiveness against the weaker bowlers so that you maintain the same risk level throughout the innings.

If I as the fielding team captain can trick you into reducing your aggressiveness against my weaker bowlers, then you will have to take on excessive risk against my stronger bowlers, then I've forced you into a suboptimal strategy and significantly reduced your win probability. Batting sides that have a rigid "low aggression during the first 10 overs" mindset and basically setting themselves up to fall straight into this trap.
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SLA

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Re: How does one stay motivated during a bad team run?
« Reply #37 on: July 13, 2018, 02:33:32 PM »

Genuinely never encountered a team saving their best bowlers for the middle overs in all my (12 or so) years of playing league cricket.

You must have some very good medium pacers if there are no bad balls - in my league there's at least one every 2 overs.


There are plenty of slowish medium pacers around who can put 6 balls out of 6 there or thereabouts. A confident batsman will just step down the pitch and smash them over long-on for 6, but if you have a bloke who has been told "nothing risky", then quite often feel obliged to just pat the ball back over and over.

Of course, if as fielding team captain you're trying to wind up the batsmen in the pavilion so that they're lost their head before they even walk out to bat, this kind of innocuous stuff is the perfect bowling to do it with. As a skipper I quite like to field on the boundary near the pavilion every once in a while to eavesdrop on what the mood is in the camp and have a think about how to make it worse. Batsmen arguing amongst themselves and moaning about the guys in the middle batting too slowly against such rubbish bowling is music to your ears.
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richthekeeper

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Re: How does one stay motivated during a bad team run?
« Reply #38 on: July 13, 2018, 02:38:10 PM »

Arguably if you have two bowlers who can bowl so economically that the opposition is unable to score then they are by definition your best bowlers. Your tactics essentially rely on the batting team being incapable or unwilling to adapt to the bowling which is not at all the point I was making.
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SLA

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Re: How does one stay motivated during a bad team run?
« Reply #39 on: July 13, 2018, 02:50:01 PM »

Arguably if you have two bowlers who can bowl so economically that the opposition is unable to score then they are by definition your best bowlers. Your tactics essentially rely on the batting team being incapable or unwilling to adapt to the bowling which is not at all the point I was making.

But the point is that they only bowl economically because the opposition is trying to play "low-risk cricket". If the opposition were playing normally and trying to score at the required rate or slightly above, then these bowlers would be cannon fodder.


"your tactics essentially rely on the batting team being incapable or unwilling to adapt to the bowling "

It relies on teams not knowing that these aren't our best bowlers. Which teams often don't, how would they? Would you be able to guess if you were opening against a team you had never played against before? You might think you were doing a fantastic job seeing off the opening bowlers.

If you've been in the same league as another team for a few seasons then all regular tactics go out of the window anyway as you start to get to know each batsman and what type of bowling he doesn't like to face.

 
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richthekeeper

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Re: How does one stay motivated during a bad team run?
« Reply #40 on: July 13, 2018, 03:04:52 PM »

...but your tactics rely on knowing that the batting team comes out with a defensive mentality?

I guess you can take your weak bowler off after an over or two if you realise that they're getting smacked, but psychologically that's a negative move, and you might have given away 15-20 runs in that time.

As an opener my first thought is to not get out, but if the oppo bowling is not threatening, I'm not going to just pat balls back and let the guy bowl maidens at me.
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SLA

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Re: How does one stay motivated during a bad team run?
« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2018, 03:28:56 PM »

...but your tactics rely on knowing that the batting team comes out with a defensive mentality?

I guess you can take your weak bowler off after an over or two if you realise that they're getting smacked, but psychologically that's a negative move, and you might have given away 15-20 runs in that time.

As an opener my first thought is to not get out, but if the oppo bowling is not threatening, I'm not going to just pat balls back and let the guy bowl maidens at me.

You just said "reducing your risk and not trying to force the game", but now you say you're not going to let a guy (who for all you know, might be their best bowler) bowl maidens at you? Which is it? If your job is to see off the openers and set up a platform and you go for a big shot off the 3rd over and get caught at cover, what is your skipper going to say when you get back to the pavilion?



Pretty much every team in our league does this, because teams just keep walking into the trap, its like they can't help themselves, despite it being a common tactic for a decade now. It works in 40-over cricket, and a similar trick works a treat in 20-over cricket as well.

It's like poker, isn't it. You don't show your cards up front. Do what the opposition least expect. Hold your best bowler back for when your opposition have to start upping the rate and then watch the wickets fall.



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RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie

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Re: How does one stay motivated during a bad team run?
« Reply #42 on: July 13, 2018, 03:39:42 PM »

You just said "reducing your risk and not trying to force the game", but now you say you're not going to let a guy (who for all you know, might be their best bowler) bowl maidens at you? Which is it? If your job is to see off the openers and set up a platform and you go for a big shot off the 3rd over and get caught at cover, what is your skipper going to say when you get back to the pavilion?



Pretty much every team in our league does this, because teams just keep walking into the trap, its like they can't help themselves, despite it being a common tactic for a decade now. It works in 40-over cricket, and a similar trick works a treat in 20-over cricket as well.

It's like poker, isn't it. You don't show your cards up front. Do what the opposition least expect. Hold your best bowler back for when your opposition have to start upping the rate and then watch the wickets fall.

Both approaches work and both have direct failings. The beauty of Cricket (or should be unless We keep dumbing it down) is you can go about it in many ways and both teams should have to score runs AND take (so nit just sit back and let run rate take wickets) wickets to win. If you want to go out hitting do it.. if you want to plod.. do it.. as long as you can take wickets as well then you deserve to win .

If you just hit 300and then bowl dry and defensive and just wait for the inevitable slog out.. thats not really taking wickets .. thats the poor format not forcing you to have to take their Wickets. Its why all teams are slowly becoming the same.. spinners dart it in.. pace hide the ball and batters just tee off

Similarly if you leak 300and cant score 300but they arent good enough to get you out then its a draw. That is literally what a draw is.. neither side deserves to win as they cant be better at both batting and bowling

I agree draw Cricket can have boring games but so does win lose. Both have as many one sided results as each other. The difference really is the skills one format involves compare to the more limited skill sets of another
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 03:42:02 PM by RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie »
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richthekeeper

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Re: How does one stay motivated during a bad team run?
« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2018, 04:31:45 PM »

You just said "reducing your risk and not trying to force the game", but now you say you're not going to let a guy (who for all you know, might be their best bowler) bowl maidens at you? Which is it? If your job is to see off the openers and set up a platform and you go for a big shot off the 3rd over and get caught at cover, what is your skipper going to say when you get back to the pavilion?


Its both.  You can play positively without taking risks, and if the bowler isnt threatening then the need to be defensive is reduced.

In short, see off the openers if theyre good. If theyre sh*te then hit them for 4 :)
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mo_town

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Re: How does one stay motivated during a bad team run?
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2018, 09:49:43 AM »

Won the game on Saturday. Beat the 2nd placed team in the Div by 100 odd runs! All is well in world :D
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