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Author Topic: England tour of West Indies  (Read 27943 times)

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Manormanic

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Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #45 on: December 11, 2018, 06:06:11 AM »

Bairstow averaged 25 in the series. Buttler averaged 38. Thats how averages work. You cant just pick and choose the matches your guy did well in and forget the rest. My lasting memory is stumps going everywhere

Depends if you place sole stock on averages - most people now are moving away from "raw" averages and in to assessment of the actual value of a performance - including the England set up.  By that measure, match winning innings in the first two tests of a series rather trump a gutsy but - lets face it - ultimately facile hundred in a big defeat.  I think most people would take into account the fact that Bairstow was playing injured for the second hald of the series too...

We'll see if Buttler does indeed open the batting in Barbados. My money is on him staying where he is

Oh, mine too.  Does not mean it is the best solution to the conundrum of our surfeit of middle order players.
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edge

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Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #46 on: December 11, 2018, 06:36:56 AM »

Depends if you place sole stock on averages - most people now are moving away from "raw" averages and in to assessment of the actual value of a performance - including the England set up.  By that measure, match winning innings in the first two tests of a series rather trump a gutsy but - lets face it - ultimately facile hundred in a big defeat.  I think most people would take into account the fact that Bairstow was playing injured for the second hald of the series too...
Indeed - I believe the England analysis setup rate Buttler's recent performances extremely highly despite him not tonning up. I'm not sure they'd place as much emphasis on 'match winning' innings in which Bairstow was outscored in both knocks by his partner at the other end. You're getting more one-eyed than ever here - if it's a 'match winning innnings' when Bairstow makes 70/93 as junior partner to Root/Woakes then it can't be dismissed as a 'cameo' when Buttler top scores with 69/89 in the last two tests of the series! Doing Buttler a huge disservice to say anything other than he's been absolutely brilliant since coming back in.

As for playing injured... it's not like Bairstow had done a hamstring - he'd damaged his finger in a minor enough way that he wouldn't even have lost the gloves if Buttler wasn't playing. Not sure how that impacts on him stepping to the legside and missing straight ones?
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Manormanic

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Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #47 on: December 11, 2018, 08:41:22 AM »

Indeed - I believe the England analysis setup rate Buttler's recent performances extremely highly despite him not tonning up. I'm not sure they'd place as much emphasis on 'match winning' innings in which Bairstow was outscored in both knocks by his partner at the other end. You're getting more one-eyed than ever here - if it's a 'match winning innnings' when Bairstow makes 70/93 as junior partner to Root/Woakes then it can't be dismissed as a 'cameo' when Buttler top scores with 69/89 in the last two tests of the series! Doing Buttler a huge disservice to say anything other than he's been absolutely brilliant since coming back in.

Haha just when I thought we were having a sensible discussion, you resort to petty insults.  Shame, though given the content of your comments, I'm not that surprised.
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edge

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Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #48 on: December 11, 2018, 09:01:29 AM »

Haha just when I thought we were having a sensible discussion, you resort to petty insults.  Shame, though given the content of your comments, I'm not that surprised.
Er... certainly not intended. Struggle to see what about that post you've taken as an insult I'm afraid.
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SD

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Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #49 on: December 11, 2018, 09:25:28 AM »

No chance England are going to move Butler - who has been absolutely key to the recent run of good results - to accommodate Bairstow who had a 2 year run of really poor form with the bat.  If Bairstow is to get a place in this England team at the moment, it will be batting in the top 3.  That is going to require him to make a big step up as he has been wretched against quality seam bowling for a prolonged period of time now, but of you are going to talk yourself up in the way Bairstow has, then you have to deliver.

I am not convinced Curran's bowling is up to the standard required to play in a 3 seamer bowling attack with Anderson and Stokes.  Unless England drop a batsman and play Ali in the top 6 or start the series with only 1 spinner  - both of which seems very unlikely to me - then Curran would have to miss out I feel
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LateBloomer

Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #50 on: December 11, 2018, 11:12:17 AM »

I don't think there has been any insults!

I am always open to Innovative thoughts and ideas just in this case I feel you are suggesting what is good for 1 man not best for the team

As for breaking up same handed openers - Greenidge & Haynes, Langer & Hayden, Cook & Strauss. Statistically, I think, the 3 best opening partnerships of modern times. If the batsmen are good enough they will score runs.
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Buzz

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Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #51 on: December 11, 2018, 12:05:25 PM »

Some standard bonkersness on the forum I see 😂

Bairstow will get a run at three. He is one if the top batsmen in the country and his preferred slots are taken. He has to play so three and that is it. Buttler isn't going to open (I think 5 is ideal for him and no higher personally).

Buttler admitted Foakes is on a different level keeping wise to him (and suggested without saying) and Bairstow, plus the coach has said he is playing.

The actual conversation should be around what is the right combination of seam and spin bowling rather than batting.

Moeen and Leach seem to be Root's preferred combination, but Rashid has done well.

Sam Curran has been very successful as a batsman but his bowling has been a bit hot and cold.

Stokes was the best quick in SL.

It will be interesting to see what happens to Broad...

There aren't enough slots for everyone.
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edge

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Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #52 on: December 11, 2018, 12:19:31 PM »

That's definitely where the interest lies I think, the team management have a tricky selection problem on their hands to find the balance in different conditions. In England it will probably be a simple matter of sticking to one spinner, but in the West Indies where they might want two it's much harder to balance the bowling unit.

Leach would seem to be in pole position if it's 3 seamers/2 spinners as he's by far the best when it comes to bowling bulk overs and that will definitely be needed at some stage with Stokes as third seamer. I'd have written Rashid's chances off but he did bowl beautifully in the last SL test. If it's Anderson, Stokes and AN Other for the seamers, that's a genuinely tricky decision with the Dukes being used in the Windies.
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Manormanic

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Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #53 on: December 11, 2018, 01:56:59 PM »


I am always open to Innovative thoughts and ideas just in this case I feel you are suggesting what is good for 1 man not best for the team

As for breaking up same handed openers - Greenidge & Haynes, Langer & Hayden, Cook & Strauss. Statistically, I think, the 3 best opening partnerships of modern times. If the batsmen are good enough they will score runs.

How very one-eyed of me. Not that I am - I'm looking for a more balanced configuration that best utilises the available talent. Yes, I confess I believe Bairstow is a much better player than Buttler - though I would be amazed if anyone were seriously arguing otherwise on that - but his happiness or otherwise is largely irrelevant.

As to the opening issues, it isn't that same sided openers does t work as much as that Burns and Jennings are so similar in their style and pace of play. I think there is a danger that they could get bogged so far down...
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stevat

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Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #54 on: December 11, 2018, 02:31:51 PM »

Maybe, but that said, not many tests going the full 5 these days.  I don't mind slow scoring rates in Test cricket - in fact I think the patience required to play such an innings demonstrates good character and mental strength.  Think Buttler and Bairstow both have the ability to play up the order, but may need to learn to curb their natural assertiveness with regards to taking the cover off the ball in certain circumstances.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 02:33:48 PM by stevat »
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RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie

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Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #55 on: December 11, 2018, 04:52:55 PM »

How very one-eyed of me. Not that I am - I'm looking for a more balanced configuration that best utilises the available talent. Yes, I confess I believe Bairstow is a much better player than Buttler - though I would be amazed if anyone were seriously arguing otherwise on that - but his happiness or otherwise is largely irrelevant.

As to the opening issues, it isn't that same sided openers does t work as much as that Burns and Jennings are so similar in their style and pace of play. I think there is a danger that they could get bogged so far down...

Bogged down ?? Its a test match not white ball. Who cares if they go slow... the longer they bat the better the hitters will do
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SD

Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #56 on: December 11, 2018, 05:31:43 PM »

I confess I believe Bairstow is a much better player than Buttler - though I would be amazed if anyone were seriously arguing otherwise on that

I would be amazed if many people actually agreed with that statement given that thete is little to call between them given how similar their international records are - Bairstow averages 37.7 compared to Butler's 36.8.  In fact, there is a fairly strong argument to say that Bairstow's record has been padded out by one exceptional year whereas he has failed to average above 35 in 6 of his 7 seasons as a test match cricketer.  Butler on the otherhand has averaged at least 38 in 3 of his 4 years of test cricket.

Stats aside, Bairstow clearly had a technical issue against seam bowling.  For a top order batsman to be bowled for more than a quarter of his dismissals highlights a real problem.  He remains one of England's best players of spin - as his record of scoring 3 of his 5 hundreds and averaging above 100 against Sri Lanka would demonstrate - but he has much work to do against the seamers.
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RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie

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Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #57 on: December 11, 2018, 05:40:10 PM »

I would be amazed if many people actually agreed with that statement given that thete is little to call between them given how similar their international records are - Bairstow averages 37.7 compared to Butler's 36.8.  In fact, there is a fairly strong argument to say that Bairstow's record has been padded out by one exceptional year whereas he has failed to average above 35 in 6 of his 7 seasons as a test match cricketer.  Butler on the otherhand has averaged at least 38 in 3 of his 4 years of test cricket.

Stats aside, Bairstow clearly had a technical issue against seam bowling.  For a top order batsman to be bowled for more than a quarter of his dismissals highlights a real problem.  He remains one of England's best players of spin - as his record of scoring 3 of his 5 hundreds and averaging above 100 against Sri Lanka would demonstrate - but he has much work to do against the seamers.

Guys.. both average 36/37.. thats utter (No Swearing Please) for any test match top six batsmen.. call a spade a spade and stop over thinking it. Either could bat in the current team at 3 because there is very little between them and sadly there is nothing else around.

All the talk about purple patches also applies to both and both are weak vs genuine test quality bowling
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SD

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Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #58 on: December 11, 2018, 05:50:03 PM »

High 30s isn't much to write home about, but given the recent efforts of Vince, Stonemam, Mallan et al, it represents a move in the right direction
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FattusCattus

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Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2019, 10:35:30 AM »

So - I think the first warm-up game is today.

Who do we think is going to hit the ground running - who's going to bag a blob?

I fancy Root and Burns for runs, I think a re-surgence for Mo and we might see Stokesy coming into a purple patch.
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