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Author Topic: The Mankad - opinions?  (Read 6924 times)

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Real Munson

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #90 on: March 14, 2019, 02:59:33 PM »

That's fine, lbw is "against the way I like the game to be played", therefore I never appeal for it, I refuse to walk when given out lbw, and I abuse anyone who appeals for an lbw and accuse them of being cheats and immoral cowards.


Oh wait, look how idiotic it is to claim that something within the laws of the game is against the spirit of the game.

What if it was the last ball of the game, the scores were tied, and as you begin your run up, the no-striker simply runs down to the other end?



You don't have to appeal for an LBW do you - so if you don't appeal, there is no decision for the umpire to make. So if morally I don't like LBW, i don't appeal. But that's my choice! And once given out, you have to walk off as the umpire has given you out - it's dissent otherwise and the batter should face a ban. And no, if someone abuses others for appealing for an LBW, then they should get a ban.

If it were the last ball of the game - I'd stop my run up, probably warn him, let the umpire call dead ball, start again.

I'll assume you are just a massive wind up merchant SLA and leave it at that.
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SLA

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #91 on: March 14, 2019, 03:03:15 PM »

You don't have to appeal for an LBW do you - so if you don't appeal, there is no decision for the umpire to make. So if morally I don't like LBW, i don't appeal. But that's my choice! And once given out, you have to walk off as the umpire has given you out - it's dissent otherwise and the batter should face a ban. And no, if someone abuses others for appealing for an LBW, then they should get a ban.

If it were the last ball of the game - I'd stop my run up, probably warn him, let the umpire call dead ball, start again.

I'll assume you are just a massive wind up merchant SLA and leave it at that.


But others here have argued in favour of abusing opponents who abide by the spirit of the law. One even argued that they had the right to bully, abuse and humiliate children who abided by the spirit of cricket.

Will you join me in condemning this abuse?


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Real Munson

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #92 on: March 14, 2019, 03:08:01 PM »

Any abuse on the cricket field is wrong - and to be honest, umpires need to be tougher on it - our panel umpires are at times too lenient.
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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #93 on: March 14, 2019, 03:19:18 PM »

You don't have to appeal for an LBW do you - so if you don't appeal, there is no decision for the umpire to make. So if morally I don't like LBW, i don't appeal. But that's my choice! And once given out, you have to walk off as the umpire has given you out - it's dissent otherwise and the batter should face a ban. And no, if someone abuses others for appealing for an LBW, then they should get a ban.

If it were the last ball of the game - I'd stop my run up, probably warn him, let the umpire call dead ball, start again.

I'll assume you are just a massive wind up merchant SLA and leave it at that.

What about orcastrated appealing?? Square leg\point/fine leg all going up.. umm, how do they know?
Appealing every time it hits the pads ?

Many things are not in the spirit and yet are done as they re seen for some reason as part of the game

Sledging is again something discussed a lot and yet you always get some saying its ok, its part of the game.. yet, you could say its against the spirit to direct any verbals at, to or about an oppo .. in essence, thats literally all verbals then

Ps, 95% of kids should be told not to leave their crease and then the coach told. Depending on the reaction depends what happens. If you have cocky kids or win at all costs kids/parents/coach.. run em out and dont play them again.
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SLA

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #94 on: March 14, 2019, 03:23:40 PM »

Any abuse on the cricket field is wrong - and to be honest, umpires need to be tougher on it - our panel umpires are at times too lenient.

Ironically, in junior cricket its often the umpires that are the problem. They're either the coach of one team, a parent, both of whom suffer from over-competitiveness issues, or some miserable old duffer who thinks Britain has gone to the dogs and anyone under the age of 45 is a degenerate. Soulman sounds like this kind of umpire.
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SLA

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #95 on: March 14, 2019, 03:28:02 PM »

What about orcastrated appealing?? Square leg\point/fine leg all going up.. umm, how do they know?
Appealing every time it hits the pads ?

Many things are not in the spirit and yet are done as they re seen for some reason as part of the game

Sledging is again something discussed a lot and yet you always get some saying its ok, its part of the game.. yet, you could say its against the spirit to direct any verbals at, to or about an oppo .. in essence, thats literally all verbals then

Ps, 95% of kids should be told not to leave their crease and then the coach told. Depending on the reaction depends what happens. If you have cocky kids or win at all costs kids/parents/coach.. run em out and dont play them again.



Never have this problem in baseball - its fine for the runner to try to steal a yard, its fine to the pitcher to try to pick him off. Its a fair contest of skill and concentration, no-one feels the need to makes a moral dilemma out of it.


Why can't cricket be like this? Why is there always some (No Swearing Please) who wants to impose his own ludicrous and arbitrary moral code on everyone else? Does it help him sleep at night to feel that by abusing some poor kid he's just publicly humiliated, he's upheld some kind of universal justice? 
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Real Munson

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #96 on: March 14, 2019, 03:32:53 PM »

What about orcastrated appealing?? Square leg\point/fine leg all going up.. umm, how do they know?
Appealing every time it hits the pads ?

Many things are not in the spirit and yet are done as they re seen for some reason as part of the game

Sledging is again something discussed a lot and yet you always get some saying its ok, its part of the game.. yet, you could say its against the spirit to direct any verbals at, to or about an oppo .. in essence, thats literally all verbals then

Ps, 95% of kids should be told not to leave their crease and then the coach told. Depending on the reaction depends what happens. If you have cocky kids or win at all costs kids/parents/coach.. run em out and dont play them again.

And I don't agree with any of that either to be honest - end of the day if I'm captaining a team and they do something I deem contrary to how I view the game should be played, I tell them to pack it in. Think there needs to be better self policing in amateur cricket to be honest, not just leave it to the umpires.

100% of kids should be told to not leave your ground - I was taught to start walking as the bowler prepared to deliver the ball, but to keep my bat behind the line - however kids will get it wrong at times, not deliberately. yes you could go down the route of running them out to teach them a lesson - but that's more likely to put them off playing I think rather than learning from their mistake.
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SLA

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #97 on: March 14, 2019, 03:35:16 PM »

And I don't agree with any of that either to be honest - end of the day if I'm captaining a team and they do something I deem contrary to how I view the game should be played, I tell them to pack it in. Think there needs to be better self policing in amateur cricket to be honest, not just leave it to the umpires.

100% of kids should be told to not leave your ground - I was taught to start walking as the bowler prepared to deliver the ball, but to keep my bat behind the line - however kids will get it wrong at times, not deliberately. yes you could go down the route of running them out to teach them a lesson - but that's more likely to put them off playing I think rather than learning from their mistake.

Same argument applies to stumpings though. If you're willing to admit that as long as everyone understands in advance what's going on, then there is no real moral difference between mankads and stumpings, then we're in agreement.

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #98 on: March 14, 2019, 03:47:46 PM »

And I don't agree with any of that either to be honest - end of the day if I'm captaining a team and they do something I deem contrary to how I view the game should be played, I tell them to pack it in. Think there needs to be better self policing in amateur cricket to be honest, not just leave it to the umpires.

100% of kids should be told to not leave your ground - I was taught to start walking as the bowler prepared to deliver the ball, but to keep my bat behind the line - however kids will get it wrong at times, not deliberately. yes you could go down the route of running them out to teach them a lesson - but that's more likely to put them off playing I think rather than learning from their mistake.

Self policing doesnt work, hence the standard of behaviour is so poor now

Policing onkh works if umpires are strong, willing to report players without exception and the league back them up with harsh punishments..

Clubs will only sort it out when they lose players to bans for weeks.. capt will only policemit when they lose players and get banned themselves.

Umpires talk pre season about doing it but never follow through
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Real Munson

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #99 on: March 14, 2019, 03:50:44 PM »

Same argument applies to stumpings though. If you're willing to admit that as long as everyone understands in advance what's going on, then there is no real moral difference between mankads and stumpings, then we're in agreement.



I can't agree with that - with a stumping you're not deceiving anyone, with a "mankad" you're feigning that you are going to bowl the ball. You run/walk in, gather to deliver the ball, can now even get into delivery stride, then whip the bails off. People don't do it half way through the run up and throw the stumps down.

As you are a qualified umpire can you answer this. on strike batsman takes his stance, outside the crease, keeper standing back. Bowler runs in, doesn't let go of the ball, just keeps running down the wicket, takes the bails off at the strikers end. Is that run out? If not, why not?

So to conclude, we can't agree on this one.
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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #100 on: March 14, 2019, 03:51:20 PM »

And I don't agree with any of that either to be honest - end of the day if I'm captaining a team and they do something I deem contrary to how I view the game should be played, I tell them to pack it in. Think there needs to be better self policing in amateur cricket to be honest, not just leave it to the umpires.

100% of kids should be told to not leave your ground - I was taught to start walking as the bowler prepared to deliver the ball, but to keep my bat behind the line - however kids will get it wrong at times, not deliberately. yes you could go down the route of running them out to teach them a lesson - but that's more likely to put them off playing I think rather than learning from their mistake.

You can tell when players are stealing yards or intentionally backing up. Very different to a dreaming kid who wanders out...
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Tom

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #101 on: March 14, 2019, 03:54:23 PM »

I can't agree with that - with a stumping you're not deceiving anyone, with a "mankad" you're feigning that you are going to bowl the ball. You run/walk in, gather to deliver the ball, can now even get into delivery stride, then whip the bails off. People don't do it half way through the run up and throw the stumps down.
There is no deceit in a mankad. The laws dictate the non-striker must be within the crease up until the point the ball is released, if they're not they can be run out.

How is there deceit when it's a written law of the game?

You're only claiming it's deceitful because it doesn't follow how you expect a game or delivery should go. But an unusual incident does not equal deceit.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2019, 03:56:18 PM by Tom »
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SLA

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #102 on: March 14, 2019, 03:54:58 PM »

Self policing doesnt work, hence the standard of behaviour is so poor now

Policing onkh works if umpires are strong, willing to report players without exception and the league back them up with harsh punishments..

Clubs will only sort it out when they lose players to bans for weeks.. capt will only policemit when they lose players and get banned themselves.

Umpires talk pre season about doing it but never follow through


The line of authority goes from league -> club committee -> captain-> player.

If the player steps out of line, the club disciplines him, if the club steps out of line (including failing to control its players), then the league disciplines the club. The captain is obviously at the front line in controlling his players, if he can't do that, the committee need to find someone who can.

The problem is that leagues don't do enough to bring sanctions agaisnt clubs. If they did, then clubs would crack down on their players's behaviour.

Umpires are a red herring, 90% of amateur games are played without independent umpires. If there are umpires, great, they should report every instance of poor sportsmanship they see. But in most cases it has to be the clubs themselves who do the reporting to the league.




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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #103 on: March 14, 2019, 03:55:51 PM »

I can't agree with that - with a stumping you're not deceiving anyone, with a "mankad" you're feigning that you are going to bowl the ball. You run/walk in, gather to deliver the ball, can now even get into delivery stride, then whip the bails off. People don't do it half way through the run up and throw the stumps down.

As you are a qualified umpire can you answer this. on strike batsman takes his stance, outside the crease, keeper standing back. Bowler runs in, doesn't let go of the ball, just keeps running down the wicket, takes the bails off at the strikers end. Is that run out? If not, why not?

So to conclude, we can't agree on this one.

Like most things.. cricket relises on each player playing to the spirit of cricket for it to work. We know not everyone does and so everything is now open season. Cant blame anyone for getting annoyed with players backing up too far (they get told to, see it on t), cant blame over appealing as its what they are taught, see on tv.. cant blame a player for sledging as they see it, hear it, suffer it and see stokes gobbing off so again, think its fine.

Umpires and leagues are the only ones who can solve it by being strong and handing out bans until players learn
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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #104 on: March 14, 2019, 03:57:33 PM »


The line of authority goes from league -> club committee -> captain-> player.

If the player steps out of line, the club disciplines him, if the club steps out of line (including failing to control its players), then the league disciplines the club. The captain is obviously at the front line in controlling his players, if he can't do that, the committee need to find someone who can.

The problem is that leagues don't do enough to bring sanctions agaisnt clubs. If they did, then clubs would crack down on their players's behaviour.

Umpires are a red herring, 90% of amateur games are played without independent umpires. If there are umpires, great, they should report every instance of poor sportsmanship they see. But in most cases it has to be the clubs themselves who do the reporting to the league.

Umpires reporting it, leagues not caving in to appeals and handing down increasingly harsh bans is the only way. This will then filter down thesystem as players learn. If someone is constantly getting banned for pushing it then tbf, game is better without them as they are probably putting players off (outside of their team mates who probably find it amusing)
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