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Author Topic: The Mankad - opinions?  (Read 3667 times)

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SLA

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #105 on: March 14, 2019, 03:54:58 PM »

Self policing doesnt work, hence the standard of behaviour is so poor now

Policing onkh works if umpires are strong, willing to report players without exception and the league back them up with harsh punishments..

Clubs will only sort it out when they lose players to bans for weeks.. capt will only policemit when they lose players and get banned themselves.

Umpires talk pre season about doing it but never follow through


The line of authority goes from league -> club committee -> captain-> player.

If the player steps out of line, the club disciplines him, if the club steps out of line (including failing to control its players), then the league disciplines the club. The captain is obviously at the front line in controlling his players, if he can't do that, the committee need to find someone who can.

The problem is that leagues don't do enough to bring sanctions agaisnt clubs. If they did, then clubs would crack down on their players's behaviour.

Umpires are a red herring, 90% of amateur games are played without independent umpires. If there are umpires, great, they should report every instance of poor sportsmanship they see. But in most cases it has to be the clubs themselves who do the reporting to the league.




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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #106 on: March 14, 2019, 03:55:51 PM »

I can't agree with that - with a stumping you're not deceiving anyone, with a "mankad" you're feigning that you are going to bowl the ball. You run/walk in, gather to deliver the ball, can now even get into delivery stride, then whip the bails off. People don't do it half way through the run up and throw the stumps down.

As you are a qualified umpire can you answer this. on strike batsman takes his stance, outside the crease, keeper standing back. Bowler runs in, doesn't let go of the ball, just keeps running down the wicket, takes the bails off at the strikers end. Is that run out? If not, why not?

So to conclude, we can't agree on this one.

Like most things.. cricket relises on each player playing to the spirit of cricket for it to work. We know not everyone does and so everything is now open season. Cant blame anyone for getting annoyed with players backing up too far (they get told to, see it on t), cant blame over appealing as its what they are taught, see on tv.. cant blame a player for sledging as they see it, hear it, suffer it and see stokes gobbing off so again, think its fine.

Umpires and leagues are the only ones who can solve it by being strong and handing out bans until players learn
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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #107 on: March 14, 2019, 03:57:33 PM »


The line of authority goes from league -> club committee -> captain-> player.

If the player steps out of line, the club disciplines him, if the club steps out of line (including failing to control its players), then the league disciplines the club. The captain is obviously at the front line in controlling his players, if he can't do that, the committee need to find someone who can.

The problem is that leagues don't do enough to bring sanctions agaisnt clubs. If they did, then clubs would crack down on their players's behaviour.

Umpires are a red herring, 90% of amateur games are played without independent umpires. If there are umpires, great, they should report every instance of poor sportsmanship they see. But in most cases it has to be the clubs themselves who do the reporting to the league.

Umpires reporting it, leagues not caving in to appeals and handing down increasingly harsh bans is the only way. This will then filter down thesystem as players learn. If someone is constantly getting banned for pushing it then tbf, game is better without them as they are probably putting players off (outside of their team mates who probably find it amusing)
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Real Munson

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #108 on: March 14, 2019, 03:59:29 PM »

There is no deceit in a mankad. The laws dictate the non-striker must be within the crease up until the point the ball is released, if they're not they can be run out.

How is there deceit when it's a written law of the game?

You're only claiming it's deceitful because it doesn't follow how you expect a game or delivery should go. But an unusual incident does not equal deceit.

So Tom, in 2 of the clips that were in the start of this thread, the bowlers did not run in with the intention of bowling, especially the Hong Kong one - he brings his arm over, holds on to the ball and throws the stumps down. If that's not deception, like the dummy slide/pick up, which has now been classed as unfair play, then I don't know what is. It's like a keeper taking the ball but acting like he's missed it, seeing the batsman move and whipping the bails off.
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SLA

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #109 on: March 14, 2019, 03:59:43 PM »

I can't agree with that - with a stumping you're not deceiving anyone, with a "mankad" you're feigning that you are going to bowl the ball. You run/walk in, gather to deliver the ball, can now even get into delivery stride, then whip the bails off. People don't do it half way through the run up and throw the stumps down.

As you are a qualified umpire can you answer this. on strike batsman takes his stance, outside the crease, keeper standing back. Bowler runs in, doesn't let go of the ball, just keeps running down the wicket, takes the bails off at the strikers end. Is that run out? If not, why not?

So to conclude, we can't agree on this one.

Not sure whether it would be a dead ball or not without looking it up. But in the case of a bowler throwing the ball at the stumps, then yes that would be run out. He could take 2 steps of his run up, stop and throw down the stumps at either end, and it would legitimately be out. (it would also be a no ball)


If you don't like to see deliberate deception in cricket, you must really hate spin bowlers.


If its the deception that is the problem I assume you're 100% fine with the famous Keemo Paul run out then? No deception at all there.
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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #110 on: March 14, 2019, 04:01:48 PM »

So Tom, in 2 of the clips that were in the start of this thread, the bowlers did not run in with the intention of bowling, especially the Hong Kong one - he brings his arm over, holds on to the ball and throws the stumps down. If that's not deception, like the dummy slide/pick up, which has now been classed as unfair play, then I don't know what is. It's like a keeper taking the ball but acting like he's missed it, seeing the batsman move and whipping the bails off.

All negated if the batter isnt leaving his crease 🙈
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Real Munson

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #111 on: March 14, 2019, 04:04:29 PM »

Not sure whether it would be a dead ball or not without looking it up. But in the case of a bowler throwing the ball at the stumps, then yes that would be run out. He could take 2 steps of his run up, stop and throw down the stumps at either end, and it would legitimately be out. (it would also be a no ball)


If you don't like to see deliberate deception in cricket, you must really hate spin bowlers.


If its the deception that is the problem I assume you're 100% fine with the famous Keemo Paul run out then? No deception at all there.

I'm not fine with it, it's just not as bad as the HK one, in my opinion, which differs to yours.
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Real Munson

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #112 on: March 14, 2019, 04:09:48 PM »

All negated if the batter isnt leaving his crease 🙈

So you think turning your arm over, not letting go of it, following through the action, turning around, throwing down the stumps - is ok? you and your team mates would be ok with it if it happened to them? It wouldn't kick off? If that happened in any league match I played in, there would be uproar, no matter if by strict interpretation, it's allowed.
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Tom

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #113 on: March 14, 2019, 04:12:05 PM »

So Tom, in 2 of the clips that were in the start of this thread, the bowlers did not run in with the intention of bowling, especially the Hong Kong one - he brings his arm over, holds on to the ball and throws the stumps down. If that's not deception, like the dummy slide/pick up, which has now been classed as unfair play, then I don't know what is. It's like a keeper taking the ball but acting like he's missed it, seeing the batsman move and whipping the bails off.
I somewhat agree with you on that example and would argue that in that example the bowler had gone past the moment they 'would be expected to deliver the ball' and therefore shouldn't be out.

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #114 on: March 14, 2019, 04:14:26 PM »

So you think turning your arm over, not letting go of it, following through the action, turning around, throwing down the stumps - is ok? you and your team mates would be ok with it if it happened to them? It wouldn't kick off? If that happened in any league match I played in, there would be uproar, no matter if by strict interpretation, it's allowed.

As it happens in this specific case no

But

Watching batsmen after batsmen leave their crease means that now, its probably time to punish it. Backing up is fine but simply dont leave your crease.. stay alert just in case or even leave a split second later rather than pushing it

Again, onus on the batsmen not to be trying to steal yards
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SLA

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #115 on: March 14, 2019, 04:14:57 PM »

There is no deceit in a mankad. The laws dictate the non-striker must be within the crease up until the point the ball is released, if they're not they can be run out.



Technically, the law doesn't say they can't or shouldn't leave their crease, it just says that if they do so, they're liable to be run out by the bowler (no warning necessary). Its morally fine for the non-striker to leave early, its also morally fine for the bowler to run them out without a warning. There's no need to bring morality into it at all.


"If the non-striker is out of his/her ground from the moment the ball comes into play to the instant when the bowler would normally have been expected to release the ball, the bowler is permitted to attempt to run him/her out"
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SLA

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #116 on: March 14, 2019, 04:17:19 PM »

So you think turning your arm over, not letting go of it, following through the action, turning around, throwing down the stumps - is ok? you and your team mates would be ok with it if it happened to them? It wouldn't kick off? If that happened in any league match I played in, there would be uproar, no matter if by strict interpretation, it's allowed.

I think if the bowler did that, I'd expect the umpire to call dead ball and say "not out".

In fact I've had a bowler do this (very aggressively) whilst I was backing up, and both me and the umpire laughed at him.
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Real Munson

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #117 on: March 14, 2019, 04:28:04 PM »

I think if the bowler did that, I'd expect the umpire to call dead ball and say "not out".

In fact I've had a bowler do this (very aggressively) whilst I was backing up, and both me and the umpire laughed at him.

Why would he call dead ball, it's allowed according to what you've been quoting, so should be given out.
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SLA

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #118 on: March 14, 2019, 04:39:57 PM »

Why would he call dead ball, it's allowed according to what you've been quoting, so should be given out.


"If the non-striker is out of his/her ground from the moment the ball comes into play to the instant when the bowler would normally have been expected to release the ball, the bowler is permitted to attempt to run him/her out"


They have to have the bails off BEFORE the moment they would normally have been expected to release the ball. Obviously if they go through their bowling action, that point has passed. In fact, given that it takes about half a second to spin round and get the ball down to the stumps, realistically the bowler has missed his chance by the time his arm comes above his shoulder.


and yes, this does mean that by the letter of the law some of those umpiring decisions in the clips at the start of the thread are just plain wrong.


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SOULMAN1012

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #119 on: March 14, 2019, 05:40:01 PM »

Ironically, in junior cricket its often the umpires that are the problem. They're either the coach of one team, a parent, both of whom suffer from over-competitiveness issues, or some miserable old duffer who thinks Britain has gone to the dogs and anyone under the age of 45 is a degenerate. Soulman sounds like this kind of umpire.

I am neither a parent of any of our jnr players as mine are to young, i certainly dont suffer over competitiveness, am very proud to be British and am well under the age of 45. I am however I seasoned cricketer, and simply dont agree with your views or the fact you dont listen to anyones views and force yours on to others and when they disagree acccuse them of being wrong or in some way stupid.
I will end this conversation with you and others with your views as your are entitled to those views as are others but once again the forum is following foul to people who do not wish to accept to listen to others views, and abuse or put down anyone who dares to do so.
There was another forum member much like yourself a few years back, i wonder if your related!!!
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