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Author Topic: The Mankad - opinions?  (Read 6869 times)

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SD

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #120 on: March 14, 2019, 11:02:39 PM »

We may not have have the Ashes if it wasn't for WG Grace running out Sammy Jones in the only test the 1882 tour so  we can at least ascribe one good thing that poor sportsmanship - and an act that was entirely within the laws of the game - has given us.  Otherwise, the problem with the spirit of the game is that it means different things to different people.
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Real Munson

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #121 on: March 15, 2019, 07:59:52 AM »

Well it's good to see this has stayed civil...
That would be not out. If you pretend to bowl and don't let go of it, it's dead ball and you can't run batsmen out. There's no possible deception, the laws are quite clear on that.

I honestly don't get it... not that I mankad people all the time, but can anyone actually explain why it's against the spirit/wrong/morally dubious/anything else it's been called on here? A batsman can only be out if he's not in his crease when he should be, same as every other type of runout. At absolute worst the bowler is taking advantage of someone being dozy, which fair enough isn't the friendliest way to carry on but there's hardly anything you can complain about.

So why the uproar about the Trevor Chappell incident? That was done within the laws of the game but was widely condemned at the time and still is today.
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LateBloomer

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #122 on: March 15, 2019, 08:10:41 AM »

We had this early last season in a T20 game, bowler ran out our non striker fairly according to the new wording

Umpire looked around the field to ask if the skipper wished to uphold the appeal to which the bowler replied - I am the skipper and hes out! We could tell that the umpire wasnt comfortable with it but had to give it out according to the laws

Interestingly the strongest protester was our Overseas player who I had to physically restrain at change of innings whilst he repeatedly shouted that the bowler was a crap bloke! Was all fairly comical really

For me the phrase 'spirit of cricket' just blurs the lines between legal and illegal. Im happy to play according to the laws of the game, dont think you can pick and choose which you follow and which you ignore
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SLA

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #123 on: March 15, 2019, 09:14:15 AM »

So why the uproar about the Trevor Chappell incident? That was done within the laws of the game but was widely condemned at the time and still is today.

The point is that its fundamentally unworkable to have something that is within the laws but outside of the spirit. It needs to be either both or neither. So any such examples have to be either made illegal in the laws, or agreed by everyone to be perfectly fair and acceptable and within the spirit.


In the Chappell incident, we went one way, and changed the law so that rolling the ball was a no-ball; in the Mankad incident, we've gone in the other direction, and clarified that yes Mankadding is definitely within both the laws and the spirit so non-strikers should stop whining and start paying attention.


Of course, there are still a few old bigots who refuse to accept the official consensus view (although they're unable to make a coherent case as to why not), but we just have to ignore them, they'll all be dead soon anyway. They're just the modern-day equivalent of the old bluffers who wanted the googly banned, or who thought hitting the ball through the leg side was a sign of moral turpitude.





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six and out

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #124 on: March 15, 2019, 09:29:08 AM »

A lot of people on this thread have been talking about the Spirit of Cricket in one form or another, so I thought I would actually put on here what it is in terms of in the MCC Laws - Preamble.

https://www.lords.org/mcc/laws/preamble-to-the-laws-spirit-of-cricket

"Cricket owes much of its appeal and enjoyment to the fact that it should be played not only according to the Laws, but also within the Spirit of Cricket. 

The major responsibility for ensuring fair play rests with the captains, but extends to all players, umpires and, especially in junior cricket, teachers, coaches and parents.

Respect is central to the Spirit of Cricket.

Respect your captain, team-mates, opponents and the authority of the umpires.

Play hard and play fair.

Accept the umpires decision.

Create a positive atmosphere by your own conduct, and encourage others to do likewise.

Show self-discipline, even when things go against you.

Congratulate the opposition on their successes, and enjoy those of your own team.

Thank the officials and your opposition at the end of the match, whatever the result.

Cricket is an exciting game that encourages leadership, friendship and teamwork, which brings together people from different nationalities, cultures and religions, especially when played within the Spirit of Cricket."
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Northern monkey

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #125 on: March 15, 2019, 11:00:52 AM »

Crikey, a lot of posts on this!

I remember an incident many many moons ago
A crucial cup game , the oppos were backing up stupidly and warned many times, but our captain who was bowling, eventually removed the bails.
This caused a huge controversy at the time, the team we were playing had a large crowd of several hundred spectators who ere pretty vocal, as were the team we were playing

The big thing tho, was our own team,,,this literally split the team, and the club eventually fell apart because of that one decision.
It really does put into question the spirit of the game in a lot of peoples minds

SLA

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #126 on: March 15, 2019, 11:34:17 AM »

Crikey, a lot of posts on this!

I remember an incident many many moons ago
A crucial cup game , the oppos were backing up stupidly and warned many times, but our captain who was bowling, eventually removed the bails.
This caused a huge controversy at the time, the team we were playing had a large crowd of several hundred spectators who ere pretty vocal, as were the team we were playing

The big thing tho, was our own team,,,this literally split the team, and the club eventually fell apart because of that one decision.
It really does put into question the spirit of the game in a lot of peoples minds


Hence the need for complete clarity and a definitive answer to prevent these arguments ever happening again. Helpfully, the MCC have provided one, the matter is settled once and for all, so we can all stop arguing and move on.

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Real Munson

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #127 on: March 15, 2019, 11:52:41 AM »

"Cricket owes much of its appeal and enjoyment to the fact that it should be played not only according to the Laws, but also within the Spirit of Cricket"

What is clear is that the Spirit of Cricket means different things to different people. Which is fine, I have no issue with people that play the game differently to me - that's their choice - but if someone wants to be an abusive sledger on the field, constantly appealing from square leg, insists on carrying through with a mankad or timed out dismissal, I won't be having a chat and a beer with them after.

I look forward to numerous tales of Mankad dismissals throughout the season, via this forum.

And this coming from someone that's just turned 40, not a bigot and have no intentions of leaving this planet anytime soon.
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six and out

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #128 on: March 15, 2019, 12:18:17 PM »


Hence the need for complete clarity and a definitive answer to prevent these arguments ever happening again. Helpfully, the MCC have provided one, the matter is settled once and for all, so we can all stop arguing and move on.

Can I just ask SLA, you keep on referencing the MCC providing a specific statement about the mankadd and its relationship to the spirit of cricket. Do you mind sharing it please because I can't find it anywhere and am interested what it says.
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Tom

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #129 on: March 15, 2019, 12:22:02 PM »

Spirit of Cricket clearly does mean different things to different people, but I'm still surprised that this one is even up for debate.

A mankad punishes cheating (stealing yards), cheating is quite clearly against the spirit of cricket, so how is the one preventing that cheating in the wrong?
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Tom

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #130 on: March 15, 2019, 12:27:19 PM »

Can I just ask SLA, you keep on referencing the MCC providing a specific statement about the mankadd and its relationship to the spirit of cricket. Do you mind sharing it please because I can't find it anywhere and am interested what it says.
The MCC website has recently been updated so the statement has gone missing. But you can find it linked here:
https://www.facebook.com/icc/posts/1776520389033716

The title of the blog post at the time was "Not against the law, not against the spirit"
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 12:29:56 PM by Tom »
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SLA

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #131 on: March 15, 2019, 12:37:58 PM »

Can I just ask SLA, you keep on referencing the MCC providing a specific statement about the mankadd and its relationship to the spirit of cricket. Do you mind sharing it please because I can't find it anywhere and am interested what it says.

As Tom says, the actual press release "not against the laws, not against the spirit" has disappeared.

however, I found this in an online article: the MCC statement:

"It is often the bowler who is criticised for attempting such a run out but it is the batsman who is attempting to gain an advantage,
The message to the non-striker is very clear if you do not want to risk being run out, stay within your ground until the bowler has released the ball."


and for the record, seeing as this is what this thread was originally about, Cricket Australia explicitly state that encouraging mankads is integral in teaching the correct spirit of cricket at the junior level:

Their statement:

"At a junior level, it's really easy to coach: From the time the bowler starts his run-up, if you take off, well you can just get run out. It's the definition of trying to play within the spirit of the game and if you don't, you can face the consequences."
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LateBloomer

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #132 on: March 15, 2019, 12:40:44 PM »

I dont think quoting Cricket Australia in a debate about the spirit of cricket will nessecarily support your case
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JK Lewis

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #133 on: March 15, 2019, 12:58:11 PM »

What I most like about this debate is how it has evolved from being a discussion about the pro's and con's of the Mankad, to being a philosophical debate on our opinions of the 'Spirit of the Game'. As I've said, I'm not against the Mankad, but I was taught that a warning should be issued first. This has stuck with me, and I guess always will, for others it is a fairly straightforward issue of law breaking being punished. Each to their own.

The bigger issue is the Spirit of the Game, its importance to cricket and to sport in general. I play league cricket yes, but at Sunday 2s level. It is a fairly gentle mix of youth and experience, where older guys like me try to help the kids make their way in the game. So yeah, I recommend a warning first, just as I would warn a young bowler about near-overstepping, running on the pitch and even bowling full pitch above waist height. I know there are laws, but there are ways that they can be finessed at the level I play.

I also encourage players to be fair, and to comport themselves as gentlemen or ladies should. I walk, and I applaud others who walk. I may offer an apology to the bowler, or at least a rueful smile, if I nick one through or over slip for 4. If a youngster is clearly throwing, I have a chat to the captain rather than no-ball him. I speak up against sledging, aggression or bad language, I clap for opposition 50's, tons or fifers. In a similar way, I would apologise to my opponent for winning a point in tennis with a net-cord, or for making a horrible fluke in snooker.

Sport isn't war. There's nothing wrong with winning, but it has to be about playing the game too. Kids can learn a lot from sport about how to conduct themselves, and how to lose gracefully. I always thought that there's 2 types of people, those who've played team sport, and those who haven't. Personally, I think that sport as metaphor for life is something that should be understood, and supported.
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SLA

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #134 on: March 15, 2019, 01:09:57 PM »

What I most like about this debate is how it has evolved from being a discussion about the pro's and con's of the Mankad, to being a philosophical debate on our opinions of the 'Spirit of the Game'. As I've said, I'm not against the Mankad, but I was taught that a warning should be issued first. This has stuck with me, and I guess always will, for others it is a fairly straightforward issue of law breaking being punished. Each to their own.

The bigger issue is the Spirit of the Game, its importance to cricket and to sport in general. I play league cricket yes, but at Sunday 2s level. It is a fairly gentle mix of youth and experience, where older guys like me try to help the kids make their way in the game. So yeah, I recommend a warning first, just as I would warn a young bowler about near-overstepping, running on the pitch and even bowling full pitch above waist height. I know there are laws, but there are ways that they can be finessed at the level I play.

I also encourage players to be fair, and to comport themselves as gentlemen or ladies should. I walk, and I applaud others who walk. I may offer an apology to the bowler, or at least a rueful smile, if I nick one through or over slip for 4. If a youngster is clearly throwing, I have a chat to the captain rather than no-ball him. I speak up against sledging, aggression or bad language, I clap for opposition 50's, tons or fifers. In a similar way, I would apologise to my opponent for winning a point in tennis with a net-cord, or for making a horrible fluke in snooker.

Sport isn't war. There's nothing wrong with winning, but it has to be about playing the game too. Kids can learn a lot from sport about how to conduct themselves, and how to lose gracefully. I always thought that there's 2 types of people, those who've played team sport, and those who haven't. Personally, I think that sport as metaphor for life is something that should be understood, and supported.


Well yeah, I do all those things too, and I'm sure most players do, but isn't contradictory with the stance that a mankad is no different from a stumping or from running a batsman out who hasn't grounded his bat behind the line in normal play. Its just another perfectly fair and valid way to catch out a dozy batsman and gain a wicket. Cricket is a game of concentration, if you lose your concentration, you lose your wicket.

Would I mankad a 13 year old in a friendly game? No, not even with a warning. I wouldn't stump one either, and I probably wouldn't appeal for an lbw.

Would I encourage one 13 year old to mankad another 13 year old in an U13s league fixture with no warning required? Definitely - its a league game, they need to learn what is and isn't acceptable, and if we want to get rid of this daft old-fashioned idea that a mankad is somehow unsporting (which we do!), now is a good time to teach that lesson.


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