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LateBloomer

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #135 on: March 15, 2019, 12:40:44 PM »

I dont think quoting Cricket Australia in a debate about the spirit of cricket will nessecarily support your case
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JK Lewis

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #136 on: March 15, 2019, 12:58:11 PM »

What I most like about this debate is how it has evolved from being a discussion about the pro's and con's of the Mankad, to being a philosophical debate on our opinions of the 'Spirit of the Game'. As I've said, I'm not against the Mankad, but I was taught that a warning should be issued first. This has stuck with me, and I guess always will, for others it is a fairly straightforward issue of law breaking being punished. Each to their own.

The bigger issue is the Spirit of the Game, its importance to cricket and to sport in general. I play league cricket yes, but at Sunday 2s level. It is a fairly gentle mix of youth and experience, where older guys like me try to help the kids make their way in the game. So yeah, I recommend a warning first, just as I would warn a young bowler about near-overstepping, running on the pitch and even bowling full pitch above waist height. I know there are laws, but there are ways that they can be finessed at the level I play.

I also encourage players to be fair, and to comport themselves as gentlemen or ladies should. I walk, and I applaud others who walk. I may offer an apology to the bowler, or at least a rueful smile, if I nick one through or over slip for 4. If a youngster is clearly throwing, I have a chat to the captain rather than no-ball him. I speak up against sledging, aggression or bad language, I clap for opposition 50's, tons or fifers. In a similar way, I would apologise to my opponent for winning a point in tennis with a net-cord, or for making a horrible fluke in snooker.

Sport isn't war. There's nothing wrong with winning, but it has to be about playing the game too. Kids can learn a lot from sport about how to conduct themselves, and how to lose gracefully. I always thought that there's 2 types of people, those who've played team sport, and those who haven't. Personally, I think that sport as metaphor for life is something that should be understood, and supported.
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SLA

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #137 on: March 15, 2019, 01:09:57 PM »

What I most like about this debate is how it has evolved from being a discussion about the pro's and con's of the Mankad, to being a philosophical debate on our opinions of the 'Spirit of the Game'. As I've said, I'm not against the Mankad, but I was taught that a warning should be issued first. This has stuck with me, and I guess always will, for others it is a fairly straightforward issue of law breaking being punished. Each to their own.

The bigger issue is the Spirit of the Game, its importance to cricket and to sport in general. I play league cricket yes, but at Sunday 2s level. It is a fairly gentle mix of youth and experience, where older guys like me try to help the kids make their way in the game. So yeah, I recommend a warning first, just as I would warn a young bowler about near-overstepping, running on the pitch and even bowling full pitch above waist height. I know there are laws, but there are ways that they can be finessed at the level I play.

I also encourage players to be fair, and to comport themselves as gentlemen or ladies should. I walk, and I applaud others who walk. I may offer an apology to the bowler, or at least a rueful smile, if I nick one through or over slip for 4. If a youngster is clearly throwing, I have a chat to the captain rather than no-ball him. I speak up against sledging, aggression or bad language, I clap for opposition 50's, tons or fifers. In a similar way, I would apologise to my opponent for winning a point in tennis with a net-cord, or for making a horrible fluke in snooker.

Sport isn't war. There's nothing wrong with winning, but it has to be about playing the game too. Kids can learn a lot from sport about how to conduct themselves, and how to lose gracefully. I always thought that there's 2 types of people, those who've played team sport, and those who haven't. Personally, I think that sport as metaphor for life is something that should be understood, and supported.


Well yeah, I do all those things too, and I'm sure most players do, but isn't contradictory with the stance that a mankad is no different from a stumping or from running a batsman out who hasn't grounded his bat behind the line in normal play. Its just another perfectly fair and valid way to catch out a dozy batsman and gain a wicket. Cricket is a game of concentration, if you lose your concentration, you lose your wicket.

Would I mankad a 13 year old in a friendly game? No, not even with a warning. I wouldn't stump one either, and I probably wouldn't appeal for an lbw.

Would I encourage one 13 year old to mankad another 13 year old in an U13s league fixture with no warning required? Definitely - its a league game, they need to learn what is and isn't acceptable, and if we want to get rid of this daft old-fashioned idea that a mankad is somehow unsporting (which we do!), now is a good time to teach that lesson.


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strang

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #138 on: March 15, 2019, 01:31:54 PM »

This is getting worse than Brexit.
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SD

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #139 on: March 15, 2019, 01:36:26 PM »

Spirit of Cricket clearly does mean different things to different people, but I'm still surprised that this one is even up for debate.

A mankad punishes cheating (stealing yards), cheating is quite clearly against the spirit of cricket, so how is the one preventing that cheating in the wrong?

What about those instances in the videos at the start of this thread? Those batsman clearly aren't stealing extra yards, they are backing up as normal but have been caught out by a bowler who has run in with the intent of Mankading them.  In those cases, had the ball been delivered as normal, they would have been in their crease at the point of release.  However, by holding the action back, the batsman is fractionally out of his crease when the bowler takes the stumps.

Whether you find a bowler intentionally running in with the intent to pull out of his action at the point he enters his delivery stride in the hope of deceiving the non striker to be a legitimate tactic or not is a obviously a personal call. 
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Tom

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #140 on: March 15, 2019, 01:37:25 PM »

I think that's a great post JK, and there's definitely room for nuance in the debate. The reality with a Mankad is it's something I'd only be able to do if I saw a player stealing yards (and I was sure of it) on more than one occasion - I'd need to run up to bowl with the idea preconceived in my head, keeping an eye on the non-striker shifting my focus away from actually bowling. And because of that I see why people give warnings, in the same way as a keeper I'd say "You were lucky there" if I fumbled a ball when the ball came through and they were caught napping just outside their ground.
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Tom

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #141 on: March 15, 2019, 01:39:11 PM »

What about those instances in the videos at the start of this thread? Those batsman clearly aren't stealing extra yards, they are backing up as normal but have been caught out by a bowler who has run in with the intent of Mankading them.  In those cases, had the ball been delivered as normal, they would have been in their crease at the point of release.  However, by holding the action back, the batsman is fractionally out of his crease when the bowler takes the stumps.

Whether you find a bowler intentionally running in with the intent to pull out of his action at the point he enters his delivery stride in the hope of deceiving the non striker to be a legitimate tactic or not is a obviously a personal call.
I think you have to run in with the intention (or at least consideration) to mankade, so I would be interested to see what had gone in the balls/overs prior (in terms of stealing yards) before making a moral judgement.
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SLA

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #142 on: March 15, 2019, 01:43:01 PM »

What about those instances in the videos at the start of this thread? Those batsman clearly aren't stealing extra yards, they are backing up as normal but have been caught out by a bowler who has run in with the intent of Mankading them.  In those cases, had the ball been delivered as normal, they would have been in their crease at the point of release.  However, by holding the action back, the batsman is fractionally out of his crease when the bowler takes the stumps.

Whether you find a bowler intentionally running in with the intent to pull out of his action at the point he enters his delivery stride in the hope of deceiving the non striker to be a legitimate tactic or not is a obviously a personal call.


To me, backing up "as normal" means keeping my bat behind the line until the bowler has committed to the action (and can no longer legally run me out) and then taking 3-4 quick steps down the wicket.


If you leave earlier than this, then you are knowingly taking the risk of being run out and you deserve everything you get.


having said that, some of those umpiring decisions are flat out wrong. The Oman vs Hong Kong one is an appalling decision. The ball was dead long before the bowler turns and throws it at the stumps.
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SD

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #143 on: March 15, 2019, 01:44:15 PM »

I recommend a warning first, just as I would warn a young bowler about near-overstepping, running on the pitch and even bowling full pitch above waist height.

This was a very interesting law change last year. At the pre-season captains meeting a lot of captains expressed concern about the rather draconian one warning and then you are off law particularly when it came to junior players who may lack control but who weren't posing a danger to anyone.

Thankfully common sense prevailed in the games I played in and umpires didn't remove young players from the attack when beamers were clearly inadvertent and weren't a threat to the safety of the batsmen.  I am glad that the MCC recognised that the got this one badly wrong last year and have adopted this year the approach that umpires were following last year and using their discretion to decide what is dangerous
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RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #144 on: March 15, 2019, 02:34:49 PM »

For me the phrase 'spirit of cricket' just blurs the lines between legal and illegal. Im happy to play according to the laws of the game, dont think you can pick and choose which you follow and which you ignore

This is closest to how it is.. we have the laws (not overly applied by umpires) and we have the spirit of cricket (not followed by everyone).. this means we have a game in which 22 people are playing to different moral and personal standards and so we get problems.

The only way to fix it is to make laws and actively police and punish. It is the only why to ensure a game that is as fair, enjoyable and welcoming to all. What we have now simply isnt and its may (or may not depending on your virewpoint) be another contributing factor to declining participation
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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #145 on: March 15, 2019, 02:36:04 PM »

A lot of people on this thread have been talking about the Spirit of Cricket in one form or another, so I thought I would actually put on here what it is in terms of in the MCC Laws - Preamble.

https://www.lords.org/mcc/laws/preamble-to-the-laws-spirit-of-cricket

"Cricket owes much of its appeal and enjoyment to the fact that it should be played not only according to the Laws, but also within the Spirit of Cricket.

The major responsibility for ensuring fair play rests with the captains, but extends to all players, umpires and, especially in junior cricket, teachers, coaches and parents.

Respect is central to the Spirit of Cricket.

Respect your captain, team-mates, opponents and the authority of the umpires.

Play hard and play fair.

Accept the umpires decision.

Create a positive atmosphere by your own conduct, and encourage others to do likewise.

Show self-discipline, even when things go against you.

Congratulate the opposition on their successes, and enjoy those of your own team.

Thank the officials and your opposition at the end of the match, whatever the result.

Cricket is an exciting game that encourages leadership, friendship and teamwork, which brings together people from different nationalities, cultures and religions, especially when played within the Spirit of Cricket."

Sledging ??
Verbals ??
Mankad ??

Sadly, all not in the spirit and how many here are happy with sledging..
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RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #146 on: March 15, 2019, 02:40:06 PM »

"Cricket owes much of its appeal and enjoyment to the fact that it should be played not only according to the Laws, but also within the Spirit of Cricket"

What is clear is that the Spirit of Cricket means different things to different people. Which is fine, I have no issue with people that play the game differently to me - that's their choice - but if someone wants to be an abusive sledger on the field, constantly appealing from square leg, insists on carrying through with a mankad or timed out dismissal, I won't be having a chat and a beer with them after.

I look forward to numerous tales of Mankad dismissals throughout the season, via this forum.

And this coming from someone that's just turned 40, not a bigot and have no intentions of leaving this planet anytime soon.

And this is why games are generally more aggressive now, less players enjoy playing oppos or spending time post game for a beer than ever. Why would you want to spend an hour having a beer with the (No Swearing Please) who has just spent an hour or two calling you all the names under the sun and sledging you.... etc etc

Its all part of the problem.. its not an enjoyable experience playing in aggressive, sledging games so why do we expect people to stay for a beer and leave it on the field.

Spirit of cricket should be all in the laws and umojrea should be harsh and leagues punish. It really is the only way as we a
L kmow on here.. so many different views and crossing the line is different for everyone so there needs to be a defined binary line in the sand that everyone knows.

Like a leg side wide.. some still hate it BUT. Everyone knows where they stand with it
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SLA

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #147 on: March 15, 2019, 02:47:08 PM »

Sledging ??
Verbals ??
Mankad ??

Sadly, all not in the spirit and how many here are happy with sledging..

Sledging and verbals are specifically dealt with in the laws. Every time a fielder makes a personal remark or insults a batsmen, or shows serious dissent towards a decision, the umpire should award 5 penalty runs to the batting team. If a fielder physically threatens an umpire or batsman, the fielder must immediately be removed from the ground for the rest of the game.


As we've established, mankading isn't against the spirit.

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #148 on: March 15, 2019, 02:49:25 PM »

What I most like about this debate is how it has evolved from being a discussion about the pro's and con's of the Mankad, to being a philosophical debate on our opinions of the 'Spirit of the Game'. As I've said, I'm not against the Mankad, but I was taught that a warning should be issued first. This has stuck with me, and I guess always will, for others it is a fairly straightforward issue of law breaking being punished. Each to their own.

The bigger issue is the Spirit of the Game, its importance to cricket and to sport in general. I play league cricket yes, but at Sunday 2s level. It is a fairly gentle mix of youth and experience, where older guys like me try to help the kids make their way in the game. So yeah, I recommend a warning first, just as I would warn a young bowler about near-overstepping, running on the pitch and even bowling full pitch above waist height. I know there are laws, but there are ways that they can be finessed at the level I play.

I also encourage players to be fair, and to comport themselves as gentlemen or ladies should. I walk, and I applaud others who walk. I may offer an apology to the bowler, or at least a rueful smile, if I nick one through or over slip for 4. If a youngster is clearly throwing, I have a chat to the captain rather than no-ball him. I speak up against sledging, aggression or bad language, I clap for opposition 50's, tons or fifers. In a similar way, I would apologise to my opponent for winning a point in tennis with a net-cord, or for making a horrible fluke in snooker.

Sport isn't war. There's nothing wrong with winning, but it has to be about playing the game too. Kids can learn a lot from sport about how to conduct themselves, and how to lose gracefully. I always thought that there's 2 types of people, those who've played team sport, and those who haven't. Personally, I think that sport as metaphor for life is something that should be understood, and supported.

I wish more games where played like this.. Rare to see on Saturdays, Sundays are better but getting worse with players wanting to tonk monster runs vs lesser players
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SLA

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Re: The Mankad - opinions?
« Reply #149 on: March 15, 2019, 02:53:44 PM »

And this is why games are generally more aggressive now, less players enjoy playing oppos or spending time post game for a beer than ever. Why would you want to spend an hour having a beer with the (No Swearing Please) who has just spent an hour or two calling you all the names under the sun and sledging you.... etc etc

Its all part of the problem.. its not an enjoyable experience playing in aggressive, sledging games so why do we expect people to stay for a beer and leave it on the field.

Spirit of cricket should be all in the laws and umojrea should be harsh and leagues punish. It really is the only way as we a
L kmow on here.. so many different views and crossing the line is different for everyone so there needs to be a defined binary line in the sand that everyone knows.

Like a leg side wide.. some still hate it BUT. Everyone knows where they stand with it


Your league must be very different to mine. I can't remember the last time I heard serious sledging in a game. At worst you might get a slightly sarcastic remark about the purity of your technique.
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