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InternalTraining

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Batting Technique
« on: April 25, 2019, 01:36:47 PM »

I didn't get to get my say in the "planting" thread before @Buzz locked it and created a total buzz kill...it is really my fault as I grabbed a bag of chips and a sodie and thought about the ideas shared.

It was a great thread! I really did enjoy it. And, that brings me to my question.

When I play my big shots, my technique is very different (grew thru experience and experiments) compared to defensive/opening batting which is based on "alignment" technique by this coach in England, let's call him Mr. Gee. I can hit big with Mr. Gee's technique but it is very deliberate ("pre-meditated"?) and not natural at all. I guess, I developed my game for challenging bowling based on Mr. Gee's technique and it is not intuitive.

Unless somebody records my movements from different angles and also shows the ball (from release to pitch) and my reactions (eye movements, body movement) in concert with the ball and ball path, there is no way to know what *I* really do when I bat. It is so instinctive and experiential. And, I keep tweaking it based on recent outs. I can slap whatever label I want on it (leading with head, body alignment, etc. etc.), what I actually do is not necessarily what I call it.

Here are my questions:

1. Should a batsman have different technique for different types of bowling? Eg: Swing v/s spin?
2. Can you use same technique to defend v/s power-hit a ball to another dimension? Reason I ask this is because there is some pre-meditation in my power shots.
3. Off-cutters at good length that get thru my defenses!?
4. I have been squared up by out-swingers pitching middle/leg and then barely missing my off stump. I have noticed that at close range, any sharp change in direction whether it is seam or swing is nearly impossible to track by my eyes. If I am anticipating that movement, then I can track it. If I am not ready for it, that (near) lateral movement is so quick that my eyes can't track it. What's the best approach for that?

Merci boku.
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edge

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Re: Batting Technique
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2019, 01:46:03 PM »

1. I see no problem with different approaches to different types of bowling? Unless I've misunderstood what you mean by 'technique' slightly. Put it another way - if I asked whether you play a bouncer in the same way as you play against a leg break you'd probably look at me funny.
2. See above?
3. More information needed to understand why you're missing the ball - are you falling over, leaving a gate open, just attacking the wrong ball, etc?
4. Bowler is sending down sudden surprise balls that pitch middle and leg and swing past off? Thank your lucky stars you missed it and try to put it out of your mind!
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alexevo94

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Re: Batting Technique
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2019, 01:49:13 PM »

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone that posted my emails went to the junk so didnt get the notifications and then seen 7 pages and the thread locked
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SLA

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Re: Batting Technique
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2019, 02:01:47 PM »

I didn't get to get my say in the "planting" thread before @Buzz locked it and created a total buzz kill...it is really my fault as I grabbed a bag of chips and a sodie and thought about the ideas shared.

It was a great thread! I really did enjoy it. And, that brings me to my question.

When I play my big shots, my technique is very different (grew thru experience and experiments) compared to defensive/opening batting which is based on "alignment" technique by this coach in England, let's call him Mr. Gee. I can hit big with Mr. Gee's technique but it is very deliberate ("pre-meditated"?) and not natural at all. I guess, I developed my game for challenging bowling based on Mr. Gee's technique and it is not intuitive.

Unless somebody records my movements from different angles and also shows the ball (from release to pitch) and my reactions (eye movements, body movement) in concert with the ball and ball path, there is no way to know what *I* really do when I bat. It is so instinctive and experiential. And, I keep tweaking it based on recent outs. I can slap whatever label I want on it (leading with head, body alignment, etc. etc.), what I actually do is not necessarily what I call it.

Here are my questions:

1. Should a batsman have different technique for different types of bowling? Eg: Swing v/s spin?
2. Can you use same technique to defend v/s power-hit a ball to another dimension? Reason I ask this is because there is some pre-meditation in my power shots.
3. Off-cutters at good length that get thru my defenses!?
4. I have been squared up by out-swingers pitching middle/leg and then barely missing my off stump. I have noticed that at close range, any sharp change in direction whether it is seam or swing is nearly impossible to track by my eyes. If I am anticipating that movement, then I can track it. If I am not ready for it, that (near) lateral movement is so quick that my eyes can't track it. What's the best approach for that?

Merci boku.

1. Rather than getting hung up on what is or isn't different technique, its more helpful to think about your muscle memory and your method.

You're going to have a variety of short sequences embedded unconsciously in your muscle memory. This might be your pre-delivery shuffle, they might be the way you move your body towards a full delivery, they might be the way your arms and hands coordinate to play a drive, or the way your wrists roll when playing the pull. It could also, for example, be the way that you automatically and unconsciously switch from playing a straight drive to a flick to leg when the ball suddenly swings into you. These are part of your "technique", but as they've been ingrained over many decades, they're not things you can change particularly easily.

What you can change is your method/approach, that is the way you apply the various unconscious muscle memory sequences depending on the exact circumstances. So the physical sequence of upper body movements you use for driving a spinner might be the same as for driving a fast bowler, but because of the different circumstances, you use them in different ways, eg you might have shuffled further down the pitch and waited a bit longer for the ball to drop against a spinner. You might also consciously "put away" some shots/sequences that you feel are risky, eg putting away your instinctive pull shot on a pitch where you can't trust the bounce.

2. It depends what you mean by "power shots" - its possible to hit 6s using an orthodox technique but just by increasing your bat speed and hitting the ball a fraction earlier, alternately there are specific movements that modern batsmen now use to hit 6s that are more akin to baseball or golf shots that are obviously very different in their kinetic chain to an orthodox straight drive.

3/4. The best ways to deal with lateral movement, depending on circumstance.
a) get further away from the point of the pitch to give yourself more reaction time
b) get closer to the point of the pitch to cover the movement
c) Get yourself outside offstump or outside legstump and use your pads as a 2nd line of defence.
d) anticipate the movement and play the "danger line" with the full face of the bat - ie if its outside off stump anticipate it will come back in, if its on your pads, anticipate that it will swing across you
e) As suggested in the previous thread, get yourself into a balanced flexible position with good bat access to a range of contact positions and bring the bat down as late as possible, trusting your eyes to be able to adjust to any changes in line.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 02:04:14 PM by SLA »
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InternalTraining

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Re: Batting Technique
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2019, 02:03:47 PM »

1. I see no problem with different approaches to different types of bowling? Unless I've misunderstood what you mean by 'technique' slightly. Put it another way - if I asked whether you play a bouncer in the same way as you play against a leg break you'd probably look at me funny.

Fair question. For me, "technique" consists of :

- Initial stance
- Watching the ball - from run-up or point of release?
- First movement or trigger
- Body alignment post trigger
- Watching the ball trajectory, shoulder alignment and height (dipped/level?)
- Stride forward/push back
- Head position before strike, shoulder location/movement. Body movement.
- Shoulder release/hand extension, eye-tracking and final gaze position at the point of contact
- Follow thru.

Quote
3. More information needed to understand why you're missing the ball - are you falling over, leaving a gate open, just attacking the wrong ball, etc?

It is a gate which opens up but then for Dale Steyn-esque out-swingers, it is also a similar opening but on the other side as I rotate my body left (I am a right batsman). I wonder if it has something to do with ball crossing over visual range/arc of one eye to another or dominant to weak? I am right eye dominant.

Quote
4. Bowler is sending down sudden surprise balls that pitch middle and leg and swing past off? Thank your lucky stars you missed it and try to put it out of your mind!

Happened twice in the nets in last couple of months .
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AJ2014

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Re: Batting Technique
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2019, 02:09:51 PM »

Yesterday I faced a bowler for the 1st time, came from a 5-7 steps run up, that ball was quick bowncer, felt it extra bounced, hit me on right thumb, luckily no damage done, but that was played down on the leg side. From there on he gave few more quick bouncers, one ducked, other left close to go my helmet grill and then he bowled a few normal pitched deliveries, which really didn't have that pace, was able to play them comfortably, point is that after the 1st delivery I played him carefully because of his pace, could I pretend if he's a slow middium pacer? No
Many feel that good seem bowling is easier to play good than spin bowling when you need much more foot work.
Both ways keeping eye on the ball is the key, hopefully it makes sense
« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 02:12:49 PM by AJ2014 »
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Buzz

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Re: Batting Technique
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2019, 02:13:41 PM »

Just to follow on from what SLA says above, experience will teach you what delivery you are likely to get from before the ball leaves the bowlers hand over time your body will react and set you.
Obviously the unplayable ball will still be just that, but just keep doing your best.

Also I note that SLA's description of how to play the moving ball is almost identical to what is in my book. There is a thread somewhere here explaining it, from about 7 or 8 years ago.
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SLA

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Re: Batting Technique
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2019, 02:23:43 PM »

Just to follow on from what SLA says above, experience will teach you what delivery you are likely to get from before the ball leaves the bowlers hand over time your body will react and set you.
Obviously the unplayable ball will still be just that, but just keep doing your best.

Also I note that SLA's description of how to play the moving ball is almost identical to what is in my book. There is a thread somewhere here explaining it, from about 7 or 8 years ago.

Well sure, I mean I'm sure some bits of your book are right.
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SOULMAN1012

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Re: Batting Technique
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2019, 02:34:36 PM »

Well sure, I mean I'm sure some bits of your book are right.

(No Swearing Please).  Sorry cant hold it back any longer
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InternalTraining

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Re: Batting Technique
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2019, 02:51:40 PM »

So the physical sequence of upper body movements you use for driving a spinner might be the same as for driving a fast bowler, but because of the different circumstances, you use them in different ways, eg you might have shuffled further down the pitch and waited a bit longer for the ball to drop against a spinner.
True. I have to pause when I get to  a suitable point. If I don't pause and evaluate ball trajectory, I can never get the right contact and power. Even against quicks, I need that slight pause otherwise I don't generate power in my shots. Which is why I like to get in position early against quicks.
Quote
You might also consciously "put away" some shots/sequences that you feel are risky, eg putting away your instinctive pull shot on a pitch where you can't trust the bounce.
Yup, cover drives are for free hits. :D

Quote
2. It depends what you mean by "power shots" - its possible to hit 6s using an orthodox technique but just by increasing your bat speed and hitting the ball a fraction earlier, alternately there are specific movements that modern batsmen now use to hit 6s that are more akin to baseball or golf shots that are obviously very different in their kinetic chain to an orthodox straight drive.
What are those movements?

Quote
3/4. The best ways to deal with lateral movement, depending on circumstance.
a) get further away from the point of the pitch to give yourself more reaction time
I am short and don't have a long stride. I can't really get too far away from the ball if pitched at good length or even slightly ahead of good length. That's how they get me. Anything behind good length, I can manage.
Quote
b) get closer to the point of the pitch to cover the movement
Yup, that's my normal tack.
Quote
c) Get yourself outside offstump or outside legstump and use your pads as a 2nd line of defence.
This is tricky. There is no telegraph/signal for the tough deliveries and I am caught by surprise (meaning I am in front of the stumps). If I go outside off for all outside off deliveries, I could miss a few and get stumped and that has happened before. In nets too, I have been beaten a few times when chasing anything outside lines (connecting to a moving target at an angle). What has worked is aligning my body behind the line of the ball in a way that I can counter swing/turn on the either side and yet being ahead of the ball (positioning myself as if to catch the ball rather than hit it). This might sound controversial but with side-on stance, I am trying to align my right/back shoulder to the early line of the ball which then centers my body (catcher's position) and give me visual range to track ball turning in or out. Started doing it two weeks because I get stumped chasing leg cutters outside off.
Quote
d) anticipate the movement and play the "danger line" with the full face of the bat - ie if its outside off stump anticipate it will come back in, if its on your pads, anticipate that it will swing across you
I am not good at anticipating that kind of danger. For example, for an off cutter, I'd have committed to the defense or the drive and then watch it inside-edge it or see it hit my inner thigh or worse, hear middle stump clatter.
Quote
e) As suggested in the previous thread, get yourself into a balanced flexible position with good bat access to a range of contact positions and bring the bat down as late as possible, trusting your eyes to be able to adjust to any changes in line.
All the drama behind technique is to compensate for an extremely lacking lateral bat/hand movement.
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SLA

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Re: Batting Technique
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2019, 03:12:38 PM »

True. I have to pause when I get to  a suitable point. If I don't pause and evaluate ball trajectory, I can never get the right contact and power. Even against quicks, I need that slight pause otherwise I don't generate power in my shots. Which is why I like to get in position early against quicks.  Yup, cover drives are for free hits. :D
 What are those movements?
 I am short and don't have a long stride. I can't really get too far away from the ball if pitched at good length or even slightly ahead of good length. That's how they get me. Anything behind good length, I can manage.  Yup, that's my normal tack.  This is tricky. There is no telegraph/signal for the tough deliveries and I am caught by surprise (meaning I am in front of the stumps). If I go outside off for all outside off deliveries, I could miss a few and get stumped and that has happened before. In nets too, I have been beaten a few times when chasing anything outside lines (connecting to a moving target at an angle). What has worked is aligning my body behind the line of the ball in a way that I can counter swing/turn on the either side and yet being ahead of the ball (positioning myself as if to catch the ball rather than hit it). This might sound controversial but with side-on stance, I am trying to align my right/back shoulder to the early line of the ball which then centers my body (catcher's position) and give me visual range to track ball turning in or out. Started doing it two weeks because I get stumped chasing leg cutters outside off.  I am not good at anticipating that kind of danger. For example, for an off cutter, I'd have committed to the defense or the drive and then watch it inside-edge it or see it hit my inner thigh or worse, hear middle stump clatter.  All the drama behind technique is to compensate for an extremely lacking lateral bat/hand movement.

What are those movements? Well, they look very much like baseball or golf swings, with rotational mechanics with the power coming primarily from the hips. This looks very different from an orthodox drive, the head is neither in line nor over the ball. Watch any T20 cricket and you'll see shots where length balls are hit back over the bowlers head with a flat-batted baseball type swing, or long half volleys are smashed away like a drive down the 18th hole.

On the other topic, what specific type of bowlers are you having trouble against. Someone who is quick AND swings/seams the ball both ways is always going to be hard to handle, but pretty much anything else there should be a method you can employ.
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InternalTraining

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Re: Batting Technique
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2019, 03:25:09 PM »

What are those movements? Well, they look very much like baseball or golf swings, with rotational mechanics with the power coming primarily from the hips. This looks very different from an orthodox drive, the head is neither in line nor over the ball. Watch any T20 cricket and you'll see shots where length balls are hit back over the bowlers head with a flat-batted baseball type swing, or long half volleys are smashed away like a drive down the 18th hole.

I am probably doing this already, I have never seen myself do it. I will see if I can record this.

Quote
On the other topic, what specific type of bowlers are you having trouble against. Someone who is quick AND swings/seams the ball both ways is always going to be hard to handle, but pretty much anything else there should be a method you can employ.
Medium-fast. Sometimes finger spinners because of the sharp turn at the close range. I sometimes feel , it is an optical problem rather than technique. Helmet grill getting in the way? My eye sight?

I am fine against the quicks, it is the snappy turn of the slower ones that catches me by surprise. As I wrote earlier, I don't react fast enough to the quick lateral movement. Could be because my bat, 2-11? Ultimately, I do employ all sorts of tactics to counter those few tricky ones but it seems all pre-meditated and unnatural.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 03:28:56 PM by InternalTraining »
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SLA

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Re: Batting Technique
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2019, 03:38:39 PM »

I am probably doing this already, I have never seen myself do it. I will see if I can record this.
 Medium-fast. Sometimes finger spinners because of the sharp turn at the close range. I sometimes feel , it is an optical problem rather than technique. Helmet grill getting in the way? My eye sight?

I am fine against the quicks, it is the snappy turn of the slower ones that catches me by surprise. As I wrote earlier, I don't react fast enough to the quick lateral movement. Could be because my bat, 2-11? Ultimately, I do employ all sorts of tactics to counter those few tricky ones but it seems all pre-meditated and unnatural.

Spinners, or medium pacers?

Either way, the answer is to play as much off the back foot with a low backlift as possible, if you do get drawn forward try to get a decent stride in so you can get as close to the pitch as possible, and if you do find yourself forward but stuck in no-man's land, as will happen every now and then, just stick everything you've got in the way of it.

Against spin, you really don't need to attack every ball. Its fine to just knock a few balls down and wait for something juicier. Be patient and you'll get something to hit at least once an over. Its also fine to let the guy beat you outside off stump a few times if this means you're protecting your stumps. Nod your acknowledge to him and move on.

Reading length and direction of turn may be an issue. Are you watching the ball closely to see which way its rotating as its on the way down?

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InternalTraining

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Re: Batting Technique
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2019, 03:42:58 PM »

Reading length and direction of turn may be an issue. Are you watching the ball closely to see which way its rotating as its on the way down?


Hmm...can't say I do.
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Buzz

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Re: Batting Technique
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2019, 04:22:53 PM »

Spinners, or medium pacers?

Either way, the answer is to play as much off the back foot with a low backlift as possible, if you do get drawn forward try to get a decent stride in so you can get as close to the pitch as possible, and if you do find yourself forward but stuck in no-man's land, as will happen every now and then, just stick everything you've got in the way of it.

Against spin, you really don't need to attack every ball. Its fine to just knock a few balls down and wait for something juicier. Be patient and you'll get something to hit at least once an over. Its also fine to let the guy beat you outside off stump a few times if this means you're protecting your stumps. Nod your acknowledge to him and move on.

Reading length and direction of turn may be an issue. Are you watching the ball closely to see which way its rotating as its on the way down?


If you play swing bowling off the back foot you will be a laughing stock.

The idea of swing bowling is for the ball to be pitched up and for it to swing late. Playing it off the back foot will leave you very vulnerable.

As for picking seam rotation in the air is a tough ask. Not many club players can do that, especially at the start of an innings.

There are three ways of picking movement, from the hand/bowling action (most recommended) in the air (some days easier than others, usually hard) and off the pitch (can work, can be too late).

There is lots in my book on a lot of these issues, have a read
http://custombats.co.uk/cbforum/index.php?topic=22148.0
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