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Author Topic: Concaved Back vs Full Back  (Read 1875 times)

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OllieWalker39

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Concaved Back vs Full Back
« on: August 14, 2019, 09:54:00 AM »

Morning,

Been a while since I've posted / been on the forum, but true to form, back with a bat question...

What are the pros and cons of a concave back, and what are the pros and cons of a full profile?

I'm aware there is plenty of rumour regarding spreading of the middle vs. concentration of the middle, etc. etc. but interested in the actual science. I know concave will get a huge edge, but that is just smoke and mirrors really if you scoop out all of the bit you should play with...

Look forward to learning!

OW :D
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SD

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Re: Concaved Back vs Full Back
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2019, 01:32:33 PM »

Personally I think it is a question of that weight of bat you are using.  I use bats around the 3lb mark so they come with big edges and a full profile at that weight. If you use a lighter bat and still want big edges then you need to lose weight from the back.

As a general view having used the old style bats with much thinner edges, the modern bat with big edges is much more forgiving in terms of being able to get power on shots that don't come out of the middle
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Mfarank

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Re: Concaved Back vs Full Back
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2019, 01:50:32 PM »

Here's my personal experience with concaved and non concaved bats. I am a left handed batsman and my bottom hand is very dominant. I also prefer to drive the ball with a straight bat rather than go for flat batted shots. Now here's what i experienced when i used a bat with zero concaving and small edges, I found it difficult to control my shots and found that alot of times the bat would turn in my hands when i dont absolutely middle the ball. Offcourse this can be countered by having an oval handle instead of round. But i found that with a bat that had slight concaving, the bat wasnt turning in my hands as much even with a round handle. Hence i was able to have alot more control over placement of my shots. Offcourse this is purely my personal experience and not everyone may agree with this
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jonny77

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Re: Concaved Back vs Full Back
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2019, 02:50:51 PM »

I prefer to use and see no concaving, or very minimal.

Interesting -

https://www.cricketstoreonline.com/blog/chris-king-give-his-opinions-for-cricket-bats-/
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InternalTraining

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Re: Concaved Back vs Full Back
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2019, 05:02:22 PM »

Can't recall if I have used a full-shape bat , all bats I use have some concaving but (and there is always a "but") the concaving doesn't dip below the edge. So, the blade/cleft is shaved to have a high spine but then wood is removed but not below the edges.

If the weight is right, personally I am fine with either full or concaved profile.
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OllieWalker39

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Re: Concaved Back vs Full Back
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2019, 08:32:06 PM »

So far guys it seems a full profile is best for someone who hits the middle 90-95% of the time. Of course, whilst I kid myself I can hit the middle all of the time I highly tight it... Hence why I'm thinking of an M&H Pro Elite MKII - god looking stick for not much money 275... Seems less than most customs now.
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edge

Re: Concaved Back vs Full Back
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2019, 08:50:23 PM »

Interesting -

https://www.cricketstoreonline.com/blog/chris-king-give-his-opinions-for-cricket-bats-/
Oh dear, he's at it again... no doubt Chris King knows his batmaking, but he does not understand how arches work!
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brokenbat

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Re: Concaved Back vs Full Back
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2019, 10:49:24 PM »

All else being equal, a domed/full bat will feel heavier than a concaved version (assuming same weight, profile etc). Its a marginal difference but you can certainly notice it. Mild concaving seems to be optimum for me, but its very subjective.
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Chompy9760

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Re: Concaved Back vs Full Back
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2019, 12:09:06 AM »

I agree that they've come to a false conclusion in that video, saying that the curve (arches) adds rigidity, because the scoop performed well in a rotation test.

The laws of physics explain it far better, specifically Rotational inertia. 
Take two bats of the same mass, one with huge edges and less mass in the centre (a scoop for example), and an older traditional bat with smaller edges and more mass in the spine.
The one with the mass on the edges has more rotational inertia, so with the same ball impact on the edge, it will resist spinning in the hands more than the bat with more mass in the centre.  That's why the scoop performed the best in that test - it's a scientific fact.

Think of an ice skater starting a pirouette with their arms extended, and when they hold their arms close to their chest the exact same ammount of force now spins them at twice the RPM.  I know it's not a perfect example of what goes on in a cricket bat, but it's a demonstration of how the exact same mass has differing rotational inertia when mass distribution changes and nothing else.

The science backs up Mfarank's experience, that a bat with a bigger edge and more concaving will rotate less in the hand IF you hit the ball on the edge, however the difference would be slight. 
Of course, if that was totally desirable, we'd all be using flat planks.
The flipside of the question, is "does the lack of a high spine detract from the shots that come from the middle?".  If the popularity of the scoop was any indication, the answer is probably no.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 12:19:22 AM by Chompy9760 »
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j.f.101

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Re: Concaved Back vs Full Back
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2019, 09:08:03 AM »

The science backs up Mfarank's experience, that a bat with a bigger edge and more concaving will rotate less in the hand IF you hit the ball on the edge, however the difference would be slight. 
Of course, if that was totally desirable, we'd all be using flat planks.
The flipside of the question, is "does the lack of a high spine detract from the shots that come from the middle?".  If the popularity of the scoop was any indication, the answer is probably no.

I think you're exactly right with this - the conclusions drawn in the video don't seem to make much sense logically.

Regarding "flat planks" - I suspect that that's where (at least historically) the rigidity argument comes into play. Certainly, by intuition a thin, flat plank would flex a lot upon hitting the ball, whereas a traditional bat with thin edges and a moderate spine (in a triangular, full profile) would flex much less.

Whether this argument still applies now, when even a flat plank would probably be 50mm thick, I'm not sure
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OllieWalker39

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Re: Concaved Back vs Full Back
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2019, 09:24:37 AM »

Some interesting replies here! I did pop down to a local shop, and it really does seem manufacturer dependent, although most are producing concaved backs - be they large concaves or slight. I am very tempted (pictures if I do buy) by a Kook Ghost 4.0... 80 and yet has a beautiful grain and taps up well - bat seems large for feel, although will need to pop it on some scales. Slight concaved back, big edges, big spine, big lump of timber... I can't think of a reason it's such a low grade!

**Watch me buy it now and it just be a plank**
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Mfarank

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Re: Concaved Back vs Full Back
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2019, 09:29:49 AM »

Too much concaving on the other hand is detrimental. It narrows down your sweetspot for the sake of adding some power to the edges. Thats not really where u want the power to come from. It comes with its own benefits like adding stability to the blade and getting lighter weights and better balance. If i were playing a t10 game and had biceps like Dwayne Johnson, i would take a lightweight heavily concaved bat with huge edges that i can swing like a baseball bat every ball
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OllieWalker39

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Re: Concaved Back vs Full Back
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2019, 03:54:39 PM »

Understand that @Mfarank  - I like to think I'm a decent player, so a good middle is worth having.  Unfortunately my spare bat is also gone, so I'm needing to pick a stick up quickly! May have to pick an off the shelf stick this time  :( :(
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Mfarank

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Re: Concaved Back vs Full Back
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2019, 04:22:16 PM »

Understand that @Mfarank  - I like to think I'm a decent player, so a good middle is worth having.  Unfortunately my spare bat is also gone, so I'm needing to pick a stick up quickly! May have to pick an off the shelf stick this time  :( :(
@OllieWalker39 what kind of batsman are you? Strokemaker or slogger? Bottom handed or top handed?
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Mfarank

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Re: Concaved Back vs Full Back
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2019, 04:34:16 PM »

A bat with slight concaving and decent edges is a good compromise or as they say "best of both worlds" scenario. If you're looking for something off the shelf, you could look at bats like Kookaburra Ghost or Rampage, Gray Nics Shockwave or Supernova, GM Neon or Noir etc
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