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Author Topic: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20  (Read 16714 times)

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Buzz

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Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2019, 08:46:40 PM »

Bairstow averages 43 in first class cricket.
You can't just slag everyone off. He is as good a player as we have.
He needs to act like it.
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Manormanic

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Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2019, 09:30:22 AM »

Bairstow the white ball player is very different to Bairstow the test player. Hes had more than enough tests now for us to know hes not a top six BAtsmen. Added to that, as a keeper bat, hes inferior to foakes .. by that logic, if you assume buttler is the man in possession then Bairstow is quite simply surplus to requirements

He's scored test centuries in the Ashes in Australia, in Sri Lanka on a Bunsen and in South Africa.  That's enough evidence that he is capable of being a top six batsman, even if his recent form in the batting half of the keeper/batsman role has been patchy (though no worse than Buttler's). 
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ppccopener

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Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2019, 10:24:14 AM »

Buzz has it right my post was slightly  off.Guardian has Butler as first choice going forward presuming he is fit and YJB as a top 3 batter

According to the paper Denly takes another one for the team and moves up to open leaving a gap for Bairstow to fit into.Joe seems to have his trousers permanently down.  :)

Big fan of YJB the one day player in one day format he is vital to the team. call me old fashioned(again) but your top 3 are more specialists than the other batting positions, not so long ago we used to play 3 openers in the side.

don't want to turn this into a Bairstow hating thread he is a very good player but England, again, look like they are heading down a wrong road to accommodate one player.

If Denly is to move up the player earmarked for 3 is Crawley.But perhaps he has never 'earmarked' at all.  :o

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Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2019, 10:36:26 AM »

Bairstow has always struggled when asked to bat higher, you'd imagine he's good enough to adapt if required but he's obviously too concerned about his personal role to try and change positions in the team. Given that, and the fact that he hasn't had any time to make any changes after being in shocking form for a couple of years now, it's criminal Foakes hasn't gone. Hope Crawley gets his chance if we need a batsman to come in.
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Manormanic

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Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2019, 10:59:50 AM »

don't want to turn this into a Bairstow hating thread he is a very good player but England, again, look like they are heading down a wrong road to accommodate one player.

If that is really the plan, its a poor one.  Firstly, if they drop Sibley now, they will be doing so knowing more or less nothing about whether he is up to the job (two tests is nowhere near long enough to decide) and second, as well as he did in the three Tests he batted at three, that is not a role that Bairstow is suited to long term.  Far better, if they were going with that idea to bat Stokes at three and Jonny at five. 
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SOULMAN1012

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Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2019, 11:17:53 AM »

If this is the case then it makes no sense and sends a awful message to those young players in the county set up. Sibley and Crawley have been the best young English openers in the last 12 months, Sibley gets 2 tests and 3 innings and Crawley gets 1 before (if rumours are to be believed) are disposed of to accommodate an out of form player into a role he doesnt and has never batted in.
No idea how these decisions are made but Jo Root is in my opinion becoming one of the worst test captains we have had in a long time, just seems he is being bullied by either back office boys at the ECB or even players to fit in there mate in YJB. Look at how Aussies have rebuilt over the past 18 months by picking a specialist keeper and top order batters who didnt and you could argue in Payne havent set the world alight in all forms but in there specialist roles have settled and earned a spot based on there 1st choice discipline.
Well lets see how this pans out and Im willing to be proved wrong but I cant see this selection working well in the long run
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Manormanic

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Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2019, 11:54:24 AM »

No idea how these decisions are made but Jo Root is in my opinion becoming one of the worst test captains we have had in a long time, just seems he is being bullied by either back office boys at the ECB or even players to fit in there mate in YJB.

Thats the crux of it, more or less.  There are arguments both ways on whether he deserved to be dropped (for me, possibly/probably but not for Buttler) but once he has been, there needs to be a clear reason to bring him back and, right now, the only one I can see is that the dropping was a wake up call, probably softened by being told in advance that he would be selected here.  In the meantime, as I said earlier, we know little about Sibley (who ought to do well in South Africa), enough about Pope to suggest that once the nerves calm and he stops plays horrendous shots he is probably Test class, but no higher than six for the next 18 months, and enough about Denly to say that he is our version of a Chris Rogers stop gap. 

If one of the above is injured, or if Buttler is dropped, I have no problems with Bairstow playing - Crawley is not yet ready and Foakes not in the squad - but that is logically as far as it should go.
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alexhilly1492

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Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2019, 12:02:55 PM »

The thing with bairstow is although he hasn't played any red ball cricket he did attend the ECB fast bowling camp.

Why on earth would a batsmen do that unless it was to work on his game, its proven he has a weakness against good quality fast bowling and with anderson, wood, stone et al this was on the camp.

with jno red ball to play he proabably has done enough to prove the issue has been fixed.

That being said, Foakes should have been picked even after a dodgy season with the bat
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Real Munson

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Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2019, 01:30:34 PM »

After the last South Africa tour, everyone I'm pretty sure was happy with how Bairstow was doing. Granted he's been very average for the last 12 months in test, however, which of the current crop haven't? Stats ultimately don't lie - only root averages above 40. The batting unit is the weakest we've had for some time. For me, stick Bairstow in at 6 - I don't believe he's a number 3 against good fast bowling, his defence isn't solid enough. But against the softer ball, I'd be more than happy having him come in to get his eye in and then take on the 2nd new ball and up the tempo. However, the top 3 have got to give the shot makers the platform to do what they do best - which hasn't been happening.

i didn't appreciate that it's nearly 4 years since Ian Bell last played a test. Bloke that averaged 45 was sent to pasture, with nobody to replace him. He could have still been playing test cricket now (injury permitting).
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ppccopener

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Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2019, 01:38:30 PM »

After the last South Africa tour, everyone I'm pretty sure was happy with how Bairstow was doing. Granted he's been very average for the last 12 months in test, however, which of the current crop haven't? Stats ultimately don't lie - only root averages above 40. The batting unit is the weakest we've had for some time. For me, stick Bairstow in at 6 - I don't believe he's a number 3 against good fast bowling, his defence isn't solid enough. But against the softer ball, I'd be more than happy having him come in to get his eye in and then take on the 2nd new ball and up the tempo. However, the top 3 have got to give the shot makers the platform to do what they do best - which hasn't been happening.

i didn't appreciate that it's nearly 4 years since Ian Bell last played a test. Bloke that averaged 45 was sent to pasture, with nobody to replace him. He could have still been playing test cricket now (injury permitting).

looking back as you are..its not just Bell, we actually had 4-5 players retire over a short period of time, that has not helped.

its was

strauss
cook
trott
KP
Bell
Collingwood(if you want stats look at his average he was in on merit)

in my Lifetime anyway that is the best batting line up I have known.
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Real Munson

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Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2019, 02:38:04 PM »

That's the thing, Bell was retired by the management, he didn't choose to from memory. Which just left Cook and Root with any experience/ability to bat long - now with Cook gone, it's all on Root - and he knows it, the opposition know it - get him early we are in trouble.
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Manormanic

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Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2019, 02:57:56 PM »

The big thing with that England top seven, if you permit me to include Prior, is that they were all ideally suited to the role they were asked to play  - and older style top three, Piersen as the gun player at four, Bell to come into his own against the older ball, Colly to rebuild or attack as the situation required...

Compare with what you have now, where you have a squad litered with sixes and sevens and have had since Trott retired and...
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ppccopener

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Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2019, 03:56:02 PM »

The big thing with that England top seven, if you permit me to include Prior, is that they were all ideally suited to the role they were asked to play  - and older style top three, Piersen as the gun player at four, Bell to come into his own against the older ball, Colly to rebuild or attack as the situation required...

Compare with what you have now, where you have a squad litered with sixes and sevens and have had since Trott retired and...

yes Prior, I should of included him in the line up. Superb player.....certainly if youre looking at Butler/Bairstow with Prior the latter made himself into an acceptable keeper but his batting was far higher class than the other two
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mo_town

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Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2019, 04:18:11 PM »

This was bound to happen when the focus was purely on improving white ball cricket over the past few years and achieve world cup glory (which they did). Its good to see new faces getting a chance. The fans need to be patient with this team and hope that in a few years, some will establish their credentials in Tests and strengthen the team.
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Real Munson

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Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2019, 04:31:19 PM »

Whilst on the face of it our bowling looks decent, and I appreciate the conditions in NZ were pretty benign, but the bowling worries me. Just didn't seem to really pose a threat. Hopefully Archer will be used more wisely in SA, rather than being bowled into the ground. To win test, and to help take pressure off Root, the bowling needs to be more threatening. Captaincy is easy when you have a bowling attack taking wickets!
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