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Author Topic: What if the idea of big bats is a myth?  (Read 1281 times)

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RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie

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Re: What if the idea of big bats is a myth?
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2019, 04:45:04 PM »

Two bats of similar weight

One is concaved and the other isnt..

Both middles from low to High go give or take equally well.. however, the low density bat enables me to have off middled shots still go miles.. the other bat however, if you dont Middle it just clanks and doesnt go.

No science involved.. quite simply the bigger bats allow for more error in ball striking. In the modern game of white ball thats immensely important as slogging means you wont Middle everything
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InternalTraining

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Re: What if the idea of big bats is a myth?
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2019, 05:32:05 PM »

^ So, basically more volume for same weight will perform better?
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RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie

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Re: What if the idea of big bats is a myth?
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2019, 05:41:27 PM »

^ So, basically more volume for same weight will perform better?

Perform the same only with more wood off centre you essentially get more value for hitting. I actually think smaller middles would make the game more interesting as it would highlight it more if youndont Middle it.. more wickets etc
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SD

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Re: What if the idea of big bats is a myth?
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2019, 06:00:03 PM »

Two bats of similar weight

One is concaved and the other isnt..

Both middles from low to High go give or take equally well.. however, the low density bat enables me to have off middled shots still go miles.. the other bat however, if you dont Middle it just clanks and doesnt go.

No science involved.. quite simply the bigger bats allow for more error in ball striking. In the modern game of white ball thats immensely important as slogging means you wont Middle everything

That reasoning only works if you are assuming that the two bats are made to different profiles with the low density bat distributing more weight to the edges and the high density bat distributing more weight to the centre.  The question is whether a low density bat of the same profile would perform better
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SD

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Re: What if the idea of big bats is a myth?
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2019, 06:01:54 PM »

I'm pretty sure it has something to do with the coefficient of restitution (newtons laws) and there will be variability in the wood changing this (think of why golf clubs are now metal to reduce the variability and increase the trampoline effects.  How much density changes this I do not know, but will certainly have an effect.

I think it is worth considering it close to a golf club where the forces generated are also partly due to speed (so heavier clubs vs lighter clubs changes the ability to deliver speed of impact and in turn the forces generated) so lighter bats generate more speed, heavier bats need less speed to generate the same force.  Adding a better rebound effect will in effect make the efficiency much higher as less energy is lost but not sure on what proportion that would account for compared with the effects of weight and speed.

This the interesting question to me: whether a heavier bat but slower bat swing or a lighter bat and faster swing generates more power 
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Psi

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Re: What if the idea of big bats is a myth?
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2019, 06:11:06 PM »

I dont think the F=ma kind of equations can accurately/fully apply to cricket bats (unlike in baseball) since there is the "response" specific to the bat based on the "pressing" that is not accounted for in any of the equations. Two cricket bats with same weight and thickness but different pressing will rebound the ball differently. This is not accounted by any of known physics equations I think .That is also what makes the cricket bats so mysterious and make people want to buy more and more in search of that elusive perfect bat :).

Maybe we should research to come up with an accurate equation to apply to cricket bats. I am guessing it will have some coefficient like TK/SK or  SS anonymous batmaker coefficient etc to account for the response introduced into the bat by the pressing of the corresponding batmaker, some way to account for handle materials/flex etc. etc.

F=MA will always be the right equation to apply except at speeds close to the speed of light (only applies when Sir Ben is batting 😂😂) . Problem is, it's really complicated to apply it correctly to a system as complex as this. More importantly, total momentum = mv is conserved in a bat ball collision, and this can be used to make equations.

The physics equations do account for the pressing and response at different hitting points through the Coefficient of Restitution (CoR). The CoR is exactly the 'pinginess' of the materials, on a scale from 0 (ultimate dead plank! ) to 1 (most pingy). At the moment though I think this has to be measured by firing balls at different striking positions and measuring speed after the collision. Maybe materials scientists could suggest a formula for this based on density, pressing, age, etc. but I doubt it would be accurate.

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RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie

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Re: What if the idea of big bats is a myth?
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2019, 06:16:53 PM »

That reasoning only works if you are assuming that the two bats are made to different profiles with the low density bat distributing more weight to the edges and the high density bat distributing more weight to the centre.  The question is whether a low density bat of the same profile would perform better

It would never be the same as they would weight different weights
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Wazza08

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Re: What if the idea of big bats is a myth?
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2019, 07:00:30 PM »

F=MA will always be the right equation to apply except at speeds close to the speed of light (only applies when Sir Ben is batting 😂😂) . Problem is, it's really complicated to apply it correctly to a system as complex as this. More importantly, total momentum = mv is conserved in a bat ball collision, and this can be used to make equations.

The physics equations do account for the pressing and response at different hitting points through the Coefficient of Restitution (CoR). The CoR is exactly the 'pinginess' of the materials, on a scale from 0 (ultimate dead plank! ) to 1 (most pingy). At the moment though I think this has to be measured by firing balls at different striking positions and measuring speed after the collision. Maybe materials scientists could suggest a formula for this based on density, pressing, age, etc. but I doubt it would be accurate.

If it was solely F=MA then a chunk of memory foam mattress vs a chunk of elastic would perform the same as you say, you are right with the fact that a standard measure of "ping" would make a lot of sense but is equally harder to control so therefore harder to sell as everyone would want the most "pingy" number displayed although equally it could stop "standard" pressing by volume driven companies.  I do suspect though that we could end up with very pingy grade 4's and lower pinging 1's if we were not careful! Not all momentum is conserved (hence why hotspot works) but most is as you say.

Let's be honest - there are so many variables to take into account it is ultimately just personal choice (sweetspot size, location of strike, pinginess, pickup, weight, and also then looks and confidence ;) ) Never a perfect answer for this question!
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Psi

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Re: What if the idea of big bats is a myth?
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2019, 07:10:13 PM »

Yes, totally agree that it is personal choice and very complex in the end. There won't be a formula that solves the whole problem.

But, don't agree about momentum. Total momentum is always conserved in a collision. Energy is also conserved, but some of it is used up in collision sound, bending /vibrating of the bat/deforming the ball, etc.
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SD

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Re: What if the idea of big bats is a myth?
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2019, 07:35:29 PM »

It would never be the same as they would weight different weights

The question is whether there is an advantage in having a lower density bat with a larger volume or a higher density bat of lower volume if each weighed the same. Obviously if you had to bats of the same volume then the higher density bat would have to weigh more
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bigblue365

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Re: What if the idea of big bats is a myth?
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2019, 07:47:58 PM »

Interesting read.
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Wazza08

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Re: What if the idea of big bats is a myth?
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2019, 07:48:12 PM »

Yes, totally agree that it is personal choice and very complex in the end. There won't be a formula that solves the whole problem.

But, don't agree about momentum. Total momentum is always conserved in a collision. Energy is also conserved, but some of it is used up in collision sound, bending /vibrating of the bat/deforming the ball, etc.

Momentum is only conserved in an isolated system from memory (so the effects of deforming of the ball, deforming the bat and the resistance etc are not included in an isolated system and assumes perfect elasticity).  Those elements in effect all effect the outcome but i do agree it is more about energy loss as you say.

Density is only a benefit if it changes the trampoline effect (COR) as mass remains constant based on the question.  So no effect of high vs low density in my (slightly scientific) view as all about mass.

With regards to the effect of swing speed vs mass I think there is limited difference with the numbers being quotes as around 1% benefit overall for heavier bats (heavier and slower swing speed), vs lighter and higher swing speed as you also have to swing your arms so effect of the extra weight is actually pretty negligible overall.
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Wazza08

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Re: What if the idea of big bats is a myth?
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2019, 07:54:14 PM »

Momentum is only conserved in an isolated system from memory (so the effects of deforming of the ball, deforming the bat and the resistance etc are not included in an isolated system and assumes perfect elasticity).  Those elements in effect all effect the outcome but i do agree it is more about energy loss as you say.

Density is only a benefit if it changes the trampoline effect (COR) as mass remains constant based on the question.  So no effect of high vs low density in my (slightly scientific) view as all about mass.

With regards to the effect of swing speed vs mass I think there is limited difference with the numbers being quotes as around 1% benefit overall for heavier bats (heavier and slower swing speed), vs lighter and higher swing speed as you also have to swing your arms so effect of the extra weight is actually pretty negligible overall.

Also it may actually be moment of inertia that has even more effect than just mass alone as it is a rotating object in general for a bat, (i know swing weights are measured in golf but not in cricket) and they affect the ability to transfer the combination of weight and speed and are affected by the distribution of the weight rather than deadweight .
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Psi

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Re: What if the idea of big bats is a myth?
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2019, 09:08:56 PM »

Yes, agree that rotational effects and mass distribution are important, and these can be included in the equations as well.

Momentum (both linear and rotational) can be considered conserved for the system that is the batter, bat and ball, since the earth's velocity hardly changes during the collision. And the approximation that is usually made is that the bat and ball forms a system for which momentum is conserved. It doesn't need an assumption about the collision being elastic as this is taken care of by energy loss and the CoR.
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Chompy9760

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Re: What if the idea of big bats is a myth?
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2019, 12:03:49 AM »

This the interesting question to me: whether a heavier bat but slower bat swing or a lighter bat and faster swing generates more power

If both bats are swung by the same Force for the same amount of time, they both end up with the exact same amount of potential energy.
The real question is how much of that potential energy is transferred into ball speed, and that will vary with every individual bat.
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