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Author Topic: Keeley cricket and the industry generally  (Read 3340 times)

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Ayrtek Cricket

Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2020, 06:43:20 AM »

Having been lucky enough to visit a few bat makers over the years now it comes down to scalability. Theres no way of making a bat by hand if you're doing serious volume.

Keeley have the old slazenger CNC that's got to be decades old by now, GM have an updated version of this to shape many bat profiles and B3 prob have an upgrade on what GM have due to the fact their founders were at GM beforehand. You then have the copy lathes to speed things up.

from my experience the bats at TK were part shaped on the CNC then finished by hand to shave the handle and other areas down before sanding, there's several videos of this online.

I used to source my bats from TK originally when I started as a brand having first had a bat experience with handle quality when sourcing from overseas. I moved away from them when more and more brands were using him as my USP has disappeared and I wasn't able to compete on price with brands with lower overheads and no VAT charges to consider.

The TK bats I've had have been pretty consistent in terms of performance Id say, which comes down to the skill of the batmaker when pressing them as the most important stage of the process IMO. Ive had laminate bats, Pro bats and various things in between.

As Tom touches on businesses in the cricket market are starved of customers right now and still have overheads to cover so any sales they can gain will help to keep them afloat. I read an article in the Cricketer last night that features World Class Willow, BTC and Garrard and Flack. 2 of these have home workshop set-ups so wont get any Gov help so have to fend for themselves.

Keeley are now in the B2C business where they have to factor in retail pricing to their prices, these means 2 sets of mark ups being applied to them in order for the brand and retailer to make a profit. This forces the prices up as a result....a well established sports brand owner once told me during my work experience within him in year 11 of school. "You can always mark some thing down in price, its very hard to mark something up and sell it!"
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six and out

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Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2020, 06:48:56 AM »

The CNC or Hand Made debate is always interesting, personally I don't think it matters, I have had both types of bat and performance has been great in both etc... what I do think is perhaps ALL companies could be clearer on their manufacturing processes.

Where I do have an issue is prices, this is of any company though not just Keeley (M&H are just as bad). Any company that are charging 500+ for a bat is just scandalous.

The more you push the top end price of bats, the more the middle stretches, less people can afford kit, and drives people out of the game,  which is a reason that often doesn't get talked about for cricket losing players.
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Ayrtek Cricket

Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2020, 06:50:37 AM »

Ill just leave this here...

« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 07:06:55 AM by Ayrtek Cricket »
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Ayrtek Cricket

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Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2020, 06:51:44 AM »

Top end willow is becoming harder to find, its a supply and demand market as you cant force trees to grow quicker!
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Ayrtek Cricket

Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2020, 06:56:38 AM »

The below are representative of what Ive always seen come off the CNC. Little bit more than just giving it a quick sand and buff before slapping some labels onto them.

Id be interested to know what the output on an entirely hand shaped cleft to bat vs a CNC shaped cleft to bat is, if one can churn out 6 bats per day based upon an 8 hour day vs 12 per day for example.







« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 06:58:44 AM by Ayrtek Cricket »
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joymarvin

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Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #35 on: May 26, 2020, 07:26:51 AM »

CNC or Handmade is another debate. But the covid-19 offer of 650 was shocking.
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six and out

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Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #36 on: May 26, 2020, 07:38:28 AM »

Top end willow is becoming harder to find, its a supply and demand market as you cant force trees to grow quicker!

I completely understand the supply and demand of willow issue will bring prices up, like in any business.

But up to the prices we are seeing? Is that understandable or acceptable?

I mean on the M&H website they are selling a Harrow F100 for 400  and the size 4 is 350!!!!!!
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Simmy

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Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #37 on: May 26, 2020, 07:48:52 AM »

End of day when you have an established brand and if you have the demand there you can sell at what you want.

Think of designer clothing companies and stuff like that! 5 t-shirt with a logo for 50.

This is no different if people want to buy into a brand they will pay the price.

Yes 650 is madness to us on here but people will pay it. Same people who probs buy GN legends at 1000
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buddyb

Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #38 on: May 26, 2020, 07:52:50 AM »

As a maker who uses Cnc in my production process, does this mean I dont handmade every bat? As I use it to do a lot of the bulk of the work for me down to a refined shape. Whilst the cnc is running, I am able to do another part of the process. Takes me then about 20minutes to shape and make all the final adjustments.

I got a cnc because I got too busy and had to upscale my production from a couple of bats a day to 10+. Be interested to see if people think mine are no longer handmade.

Also as some one mentioned, the very best top end willow is getting harder to come across. Every year prices of willow goes up. You are also paying for that brands name and reputation. If you dont want to pay 600 on a bat, buy from a smaller maker. Example my top end is half that price for a g1+.

Essentially do you want a Rolex or a Casio. Both do the same job and tell you the same time, but one sells for more than the other.
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RobertJames cricket @RobertJamescric

Mfarank

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Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2020, 08:01:56 AM »

As a maker who uses Cnc in my production process, does this mean I dont handmade every bat? As I use it to do a lot of the bulk of the work for me down to a refined shape. Whilst the cnc is running, I am able to do another part of the process. Takes me then about 20minutes to shape and make all the final adjustments.

I got a cnc because I got too busy and had to upscale my production from a couple of bats a day to 10+. Be interested to see if people think mine are no longer handmade.

Also as some one mentioned, the very best top end willow is getting harder to come across. Every year prices of willow goes up. You are also paying for that brands name and reputation. If you dont want to pay 600 on a bat, buy from a smaller maker. Example my top end is half that price for a g1+.

Essentially do you want a Rolex or a Casio. Both do the same job and tell you the same time, but one sells for more than the other.

Couldn't have said it better mate!
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Psi

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Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2020, 08:02:05 AM »

So most manufacturers use cnc to roughly shape the bat. Are there cnc lathes in the industry which produce the finished product automatically, bar finishing and polishing? How about GM or Kookaburra? I don't think a rough shaping by cnc will make any difference to performance.
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buddyb

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Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2020, 08:15:22 AM »

So most manufacturers use cnc to roughly shape the bat. Are there cnc lathes in the industry which produce the finished product automatically, bar finishing and polishing? How about GM or Kookaburra? I don't think a rough shaping by cnc will make any difference to performance.

Performance is based on several factors

The cleft you are using
The pressing (key part if you dont get that right then you wont get performance)
Balance

GM use it to shape every bat in that model exactly the same. But they still make some final adjustments, albeit small. Theres is purely a retail reason and consistency in shape and probably why some people think they are hit and miss, but thats down to the pressing in my opinion.

Kooks dont cnc as far as I know. But theres many ways to skin a cat. Doesnt have to be a cnc. You can use other machines.

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RobertJames cricket @RobertJamescric

LEACHY48

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Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2020, 08:16:10 AM »

As a maker who uses Cnc in my production process, does this mean I dont handmade every bat? As I use it to do a lot of the bulk of the work for me down to a refined shape. Whilst the cnc is running, I am able to do another part of the process. Takes me then about 20minutes to shape and make all the final adjustments.

I got a cnc because I got too busy and had to upscale my production from a couple of bats a day to 10+. Be interested to see if people think mine are no longer handmade.

Also as some one mentioned, the very best top end willow is getting harder to come across. Every year prices of willow goes up. You are also paying for that brands name and reputation. If you dont want to pay 600 on a bat, buy from a smaller maker. Example my top end is half that price for a g1+.

Essentially do you want a Rolex or a Casio. Both do the same job and tell you the same time, but one sells for more than the other.

I think everyone is missing my point.

I have absolutely no problem with machinery and technology as a method of producing more bats. The caveat is that I want that to be advertised. GM and B3 both advertise it, you have put up Instagram videos of the CNC in action, I just find it morally wrong to advertise bats as handmade and not publicise the fact you are using a CNC in the process.

The pricing is entirely their prerogative, but I still think its distasteful to advertise something as a 'Covid sale' and then charge 650.

I don't think anyone has a problem with technology being used to speed up the process, my issue is the transparency.
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Mfarank

Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2020, 08:18:51 AM »

I think everyone is missing my point.

I have absolutely no problem with machinery and technology as a method of producing more bats. The caveat is that I want that to be advertised. GM and B3 both advertise it, you have put up Instagram videos of the CNC in action, I just find it morally wrong to advertise bats as handmade and not publicise the fact you are using a CNC in the process.

The pricing is entirely their prerogative, but I still think its distasteful to advertise something as a 'Covid sale' and then charge 650.

I don't think anyone has a problem with technology being used to speed up the process, my issue is the transparency.

For the 3rd time...

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Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2020, 08:23:30 AM »

I am very glad some of the more established forum members have stepped in and spoken sense to this thread.

@Toms comment about the industry right now was spot on and it could really be just left there, however

A few points For me

If a business wants to apply a certain pricing strategy/business model. That is totally up to them and I wish them every luck. If you dont like it simply i wouldnt Waste any time thinking about it let alone take time complaining about it on a forum...

I think its crazy and quite disrespectful for people to question their bat making ability. I have gone off Tk bats in the past and moved onto another maker who I found out subsequently tried to charge me 100 more for the exact same cleft as they offered to someone else. Did I write a post about it, no I just will never spend another penny with said brand. I have since moved back to TK bats and the quality of said bats is second to none.

If you also look at the pricing 650 for a top pro keeley isnt that bad, providing you arent the average forum member who thinks a pro bat fit for kohli should cost 100ish. GM so called players editions are 650ish and I personally would choose a keeley every time out of the 2. What about a GN Legend 1000 for an Indian made stock bat. Not that I have anything against Indian made bats, I am probably one of the odd ones out on this forum as some of the Indian bats I have or seen personally I think are as good as anything out there. 
 
Ok so onto the actual bats, TKs are the best mass made bats within the UK no question and still a fair amount of skilled work is done by hand. I have had a completely hand made bat by Tim, well a hand operated machine cut the shoulders and a press pressed it but apart from that he made it completely... or is that not completely handmade...... now Im confused 🤣🤣 should I be demanding a refund. I have also had many part cncd bats and has there been a difference in performance or quality. Absolutely not. The thing to also remember is willow is a natural product and you will get some variance. I have had one disappointing Tk bat and it was a black cat voodoo that weighed in at 2.5, so in hindsight would any 2.5 finished bat be that great..... since then I have had around 10-15 tk guns

Technology moves on and like Tom M said to make bats at the volume they do would be crazy to not use a cnc to spit out a rough template. No means is the bat finished there still plenty of hard and skilled work is needed.

Anyways have a great day everyone



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