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Author Topic: Is this Village or Genius by Tim Paine??  (Read 1721 times)

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Buzz

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Re: Is this Village or Genius by Tim Paine??
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2020, 10:44:35 AM »

I think this is perfectly fine the ball is dead when the ball "finally" rests in the keepers gloves. Absolutely not the case here.

What I object to is the keeper standing up and holding the ball next to the stumps for an age and then going for a stumping. There are examples of both Stewie and Ben Foakes doing this.
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Bats_Entertainment

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Re: Is this Village or Genius by Tim Paine??
« Reply #46 on: November 11, 2020, 11:41:02 AM »

Lastly, its always a stumping. It would only not be a stumping if the umpire didnt know the rules or the batsman was attempting a run and which case this thread wouldnt be relevant.

I agree it's a stumping. But the umpire only gives it out or not out, won't be the one recording the mode of dismissal in the book!

The law book maybe allows a margin of error in such matters: "...and where a run-out decision would also be acceptable" or something like that?

WK might feel a bit disgruntled at losing a scalp though!

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Tailendfielder

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Re: Is this Village or Genius by Tim Paine??
« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2020, 12:46:25 PM »

I agree it's a stumping. But the umpire only gives it out or not out, won't be the one recording the mode of dismissal in the book!

The law book maybe allows a margin of error in such matters: "...and where a run-out decision would also be acceptable" or something like that?

WK might feel a bit disgruntled at losing a scalp though!

Fair point
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Bats_Entertainment

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Re: Is this Village or Genius by Tim Paine??
« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2020, 03:47:18 PM »

"39.1.2 The striker is out Stumped if all the conditions of 39.1.1 are satisfied, even though a decision of Run out would be justified."

Was it Cardus who drew comparisons the Laws of Cricket and the British Constitution?
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Buzz

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Re: Is this Village or Genius by Tim Paine??
« Reply #49 on: November 11, 2020, 05:14:16 PM »

The laws of cricket are at least written down....
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Duck Duck Mongoose

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Re: Is this Village or Genius by Tim Paine??
« Reply #50 on: November 11, 2020, 09:20:44 PM »

I think this is perfectly fine the ball is dead when the ball "finally" rests in the keepers gloves. Absolutely not the case here.

What I object to is the keeper standing up and holding the ball next to the stumps for an age and then going for a stumping. There are examples of both Stewie and Ben Foakes doing this.

Up to the umpires to decide when the ball is dead no? If the batsman holds his shot position then loses his balance getting back into the crease I would say it's still fair game.
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nivaga

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Re: Is this Village or Genius by Tim Paine??
« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2020, 09:25:06 AM »

I had a 'good discussion' with some umpires once after a similar situation in a match where I was coaching.

The opener on about the 3rd ball of his innings played a clear leave (he had done so for every ball so far), raising his bat and watching it carry through to the wicky under his arm, then dropped his bat and took a step or 2 forward to poke at something on the pitch. The wicky immediately under-armed it at the stumps and he was given out by the square leg.

I asked afterwards what he was actually given out for and was told run out.  Here was my conclusion from opening the rules app and trying to express my outrage to the umpires at least assuming I may get an apology.

20.1.1.1 it is finally settled in the hands of the wicket-keeper or of the bowler.

Clearly for the batsmen having not played a shot and having watched it carry through, in their mind it was "finally settled"?  And in the context they were clearly not attempting a must-get run off a last ball?  But who decides "finally settled"  See law 20.2

20.1.2 The ball shall be considered to be dead when it is clear to the bowler's end umpire that the fielding side and both batsmen at the wicket have ceased to regard it as in play.

Again, in context the batsmen stepping out his crease was probably a good 2 seconds after the ball had hit the gloves and was clearly not attempting a run ...both batsmen had clearly regarded it as no longer in play and clearly assumed the wicky would have the same view of the situation (spirit of the game?)  Yet did the bowlers end umpire agree ... nope ... See law 20.2

20.2 Ball finally settled Whether the ball is finally settled or not is a matter for the umpire alone to decide.

Ah .... so this is the only clear guidance on this all.  It is all at the umpires discretion.


Moral of the story:  I went back and told the guys that as a tough lesson you just don't leave your crease as you have very little way of knowing what an umpire will / won't decide.   (A bit like my response to getting bad LBW calls ... make sure you get bat on ball so you are not at the mercy of human interpretation)
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KettonJake

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Re: Is this Village or Genius by Tim Paine??
« Reply #52 on: November 12, 2020, 10:55:50 AM »

I had a 'good discussion' with some umpires once after a similar situation in a match where I was coaching.

The opener on about the 3rd ball of his innings played a clear leave (he had done so for every ball so far), raising his bat and watching it carry through to the wicky under his arm, then dropped his bat and took a step or 2 forward to poke at something on the pitch. The wicky immediately under-armed it at the stumps and he was given out by the square leg.

I asked afterwards what he was actually given out for and was told run out.  Here was my conclusion from opening the rules app and trying to express my outrage to the umpires at least assuming I may get an apology.

20.1.1.1 it is finally settled in the hands of the wicket-keeper or of the bowler.

Clearly for the batsmen having not played a shot and having watched it carry through, in their mind it was "finally settled"?  And in the context they were clearly not attempting a must-get run off a last ball?  But who decides "finally settled"  See law 20.2

20.1.2 The ball shall be considered to be dead when it is clear to the bowler's end umpire that the fielding side and both batsmen at the wicket have ceased to regard it as in play.

Again, in context the batsmen stepping out his crease was probably a good 2 seconds after the ball had hit the gloves and was clearly not attempting a run ...both batsmen had clearly regarded it as no longer in play and clearly assumed the wicky would have the same view of the situation (spirit of the game?)  Yet did the bowlers end umpire agree ... nope ... See law 20.2

20.2 Ball finally settled Whether the ball is finally settled or not is a matter for the umpire alone to decide.

Ah .... so this is the only clear guidance on this all.  It is all at the umpires discretion.


Moral of the story:  I went back and told the guys that as a tough lesson you just don't leave your crease as you have very little way of knowing what an umpire will / won't decide.   (A bit like my response to getting bad LBW calls ... make sure you get bat on ball so you are not at the mercy of human interpretation)

I personally wouldn't have thrown down the stumps in that situation, but whenever I am batting I always expect/assume that the keeper will.

Don't leave the crease to do any gardening until the ball has been offloaded to first slip/another fielder. Easy.

Bats_Entertainment

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Re: Is this Village or Genius by Tim Paine??
« Reply #53 on: November 12, 2020, 11:19:00 AM »

Presumably if the keeper did a quick off-load to first-slip, and first-slip threw the stumps down, it would be completely different?
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KettonJake

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Re: Is this Village or Genius by Tim Paine??
« Reply #54 on: November 12, 2020, 11:22:14 AM »

Presumably if the keeper did a quick off-load to first-slip, and first-slip threw the stumps down, it would be completely different?

Aside from cases of dropping/fumbling/missing the ball by the keeper, the only time first slip could be in possession is if the ball is dead in my opinion.

Kulli

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Re: Is this Village or Genius by Tim Paine??
« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2020, 11:38:16 AM »

Does this mean you need to be extra careful if someone bowls a Harmy that goes straight to first slip?
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KettonJake

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Re: Is this Village or Genius by Tim Paine??
« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2020, 11:42:48 AM »

Does this mean you need to be extra careful if someone bowls a Harmy that goes straight to first slip?

 :D :D :D

I guess to be sure, you don't take that as a dead ball until first slip has offloaded it. Imagine a rancid wide resulting in a wicket because first slip threw them down after the batsman went for a walk, there would be serious aggro!

Bats_Entertainment

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Re: Is this Village or Genius by Tim Paine??
« Reply #57 on: November 12, 2020, 12:33:29 PM »

Wouldn't be stumped though, would it? Stumped has to be WK.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2020, 01:08:37 PM by Bats_Entertainment »
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